The Dark Knight (GODDAMN SPOILERS)

[Admiral Valdemar]

After all, if you were really not paying attention, you'd miss where The Joker was falling (and laughing) to his doom... just before Batman saves him.

This, also, further explains the lack of blowing the shit out of the antagonist in many other situations e.g. the highway chase.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, did you miss Joker yelling "Hit me!" and Batman yelling "No!"

I saw it. I understand. What I don't approve of is why he wouldn't. Seriously. Batman was guilted out by Joker killing people in his name, but wouldn't just shoot him down, even when Joker had just been shooting at him? I would much rather Batman filled him full of lead.

Burton's Batman would kill in extreme circumstances, like when he took out the poison factory. I was ok with that but some of my Batman-loving friends find that intolerable. In the modern comics, Batman's refusal to kill is not only his moral anchor but the only reason why Gordon doesn't take him down as a vigilante. Nolan's Batman is more like that Batman.

Yeah. I get the no-kill. I watch Doctor Who, remember. I'm also sick to the back teeth of of heroes-don't-kill. Moral anchor be damned. Everything bad that happened after that point in the film could have been stopped if Batman had just shot Joker down.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Batman killing people isn't Batman.

You should be watching The Punisher then, because you're basically telling the character how he should act as if you were him. It's like criticising Tony Stark for being an alcoholic dick at the best of times. These are the traits that produce the drama.

[Schuyler Colfax]

That was one of the things that surprised me about Iron Man. I was expecting a no kill hero and this fucker just shoots people with fucking missiles. I didn't have a problem with it but it was surprising to see.

I know it's been said but, basically The Joker's goal was to break everyone's moral code and bring utter chaos to the city.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Which is why Deadshot is kind of a non-starter for another villain, since we've already had the polar opposite, unafraid-to-die personification of chaos thing with The Joker here.

[NecronLord]

Batman killing people isn't Batman.

Err. Okay then. So? Am I not allowed to say I do not enjoy that particular aspect of Batman?

You should be watching The Punisher then, because you're basically telling the character how he should act as if you were him.

The character does not exist. I am telling him nothing. I would have approved of the film more if he'd been more serious about destroying this man who is risking thousands upon thousands of lives. In such extreme circumstances, I would find it irresponsible to pass up such a potentially swift and final resolution to the situation. Such irresponsibility in 'heroes' irks me, yes, I comprehend the reasons writers do it, but it is an aspect of modern heroic fiction I dislike.

It's like criticising Tony Stark for being an alcoholic dick at the best of times. These are the traits that produce the drama.

And? I have no particular attachment to Stark either; that film was amusing, and didn't suffer this particuar flaw; it had others, which I believe I talked about in the thread directly related to that. Should I not watch Iron Man because I said I found Stark's surviving when he was shot up into the air in Afganistan implausible and silly?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Err. Okay then. So? Am I not allowed to say I do not enjoy that particular aspect of Batman?

No, you filthy heathen.

The character does not exist. I am telling him nothing. I would have approved of the film more if he'd been more serious about destroying this man who is risking thousands upon thousands of lives. In such extreme circumstances, I would find it irresponsible to pass up such a potentially swift and final resolution to the situation. Such irresponsibility in 'heroes' irks me, yes, I comprehend the reasons writers do it, but it is an aspect of modern heroic fiction I dislike.

So be it.

And? I have no particular attachment to Stark either; that film was amusing, and didn't suffer this particuar flaw; it had others, which I believe I talked about in the thread directly related to that. Should I not watch Iron Man because I said I found Stark's surviving when he was shot up into the air in Afganistan implausible and silly?

No, simply pointing out absolutely basic character flaws that are built into the character to make them real is pretty meaningless. We all know Batman doesn't kill; Stark is an ass; Spider-man never uses guns; Superman doesn't right the biggest flaws in the world etc. etc. That you don't like these things is indicative of how well the character is fleshed out and making you question their lives. It's all very well to say "Well, I'd so not do that", but then you'd not have a movie in many instances if things went swimmingly. Personally, as much as the no kill thing Batman has irks me as much as The Punisher going the opposite extreme, I find it far more dramatically interesting, and that really is all that counts.

That is why I still watch The Doctor too, to see his way of dealing with a universe that is not noble, righteous or logical.

[NecronLord]

What I actually said was 'I wanted to shout it at the screen' it frustrated me. Yes, perhaps it's meant to be a character flaw, but it's one that's completely unquestioned in-universe. I can certainly get behind his not shooting every criminal (who are, a, not generally out to do widespread murder, nor a serious threat to Batman), or say, Adam West Batman not shooting everything in sight (his villains are more threats to themselves than him half the time), but in this instance, the extreme danger the Joker presented to Batman, and everyone around him, made his reluctance to kill much more frustrating for me as a member of the audience. Normally, I wouldn't want Batman to just gun down his enemies, but in such extreme circumstances, I find it a very obvious (and unquestioned) flaw in his tactics and morals, but unlike, say, drinking, it seems to be completely unquestioned, even by Batman. (Even Joker sneering 'you should have shot me' would have countered it for me; I feel it's a writing problem in some hero stories - it's not presented as a character flaw, it's presented as THE RIGHT THING TO DO when to my mind, it isn't)

Unless of course, he was meant to know Gordon was going to come up and shove a shotgun to the back of Joker's head.


Oh, the one other flaw I can recall; when did Wayne get to become a computer genius, to wire up every cellphone in Gotham to do the sonar trick? I don't recall him having such skill anywhere else, but it's a while since I saw the last film.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Batman is explicitly shown to be a non-killer in TDK and BB, so it shouldn't be surprising that The Joker taunts him with this and wants to die to prove his point that everyone fails sooner or later and gives in. The Joker made a good point of this in his final dialogue, so it's in no way assumed it's "the right thing to do" because they say so. The Joker goes out of his way to highlight this flaw and apply pressure.

Additionally, Wayne is a smart guy, though he may have had help from Lucius' already ample R&D division. He found out about the sonar tweak in HK, so all he needed to do was get a way to tap into all cellular transmissions. He didn't have to invent the system from scratch, just apply it to a bigger scale.

[Anguirus]

I saw it. I understand.

Yeah I know you understand, I was talking to Pinto.

I actually agree with you that Batman's no-kill rule, while overall admirable, might very well endanger lives in certain circumstances. That's why I like the scene in The Dark Knight Returns when the thug is holding a gun to a baby's head threatening to shoot him, and Batman blows the guy away with the other thug's gun. "I believe you."

But on the other hand, it's pretty damn awesome to see things like Batman flying into the building with hostages, thugs, and confused cops alike and managing to save EVERYONE.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Yeah, did you miss Joker yelling "Hit me!" and Batman yelling "No!"

I heard the Joker yelling "Hit me!" but I didn't hear Batman yelling "No!".

[NecronLord]

all he needed to do was get a way to tap into all cellular transmissions.

Wayne Enterprises must have an absolutely killer corporate espionage department to be able to futz with every network in Gotham like that.

And yeah, Angu; the swat scene was pure win.

[General Zod]

Wayne Enterprises must have an absolutely killer corporate espionage department to be able to futz with every network in Gotham like that.

They have their own satellites which probably helped a fair bit, iirc.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I also think Wayne Enterprises owns most of the telcos, so it's not even as hard as espionage.

[nickolay1]

Thanks for dodging the point. Where's your evidence that they do it weekly?

You were the one claiming the amount of money involved was over-the-top, you fucking idiot, you think I can't go back and read your previous posts?

Are you fucking blind? I already admitted that the amount was actually reasonable.

So? You were the one claiming that the mob wouldn't use the strategy they did, when in fact it IS a proven tactic. I'm not claiming it's a good one.

Just like horse cavalry is a proven tactic against Native Americans? Times change, idiot.

Which contradicts my point ... how? I said that that the security person would have a better chance than a civilian. And you refute that by ... saying a security person wouldn't have a difficult time getting through?

Reread your own post, moron. Your claim was "you can't count on it."

God, you are fucking dense. http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php ... 0&num=3892 . And don't think we haven't noticed you moving your goalposts. Smuggling thrives in North Korea, which refutes your argument.

You are a fucking liar. My original point only applied to smuggling under a specific set of circumstances. One of my supporting claims was that it's fucking trivial to do smuggling for the government through China or by sea. Not by a fucking aircraft landing on Main St., Pyongyang.

But ZOMG the army eats foreign-aid sourced rice!

Thanks for dodging the point.

I was unaware that your red herring had a point at all. I'd also point out how these exceptional cases you are so fond of mentioning don't affect the general argument, but I fear the point would fly over your head like one of those smuggling flights you consider so plausible. I wonder if it'd be detectable by radar!

Are you really this fucking stupid? Stop contradicting yourself.

There's a difference between dying on the spot and weeks later from internal trauma, you strawmanning fucktard.

Which is exactly what people do in that sort of situation. What are you trying to prove here?

That the shotgun blast dislodged more than just paint fragments weighing some milligrams, that he wouldn't even feel.

God you are dense.

No doubt the remarks of incompetence clearly referred to them totally flunking the police academy, not remembering anything from their training, etc.

Because, you know, they just hand out pistols like candy to those totally unqualified in their use -- those who can't even hit an exposed head at the range of several meters when protocol demands it.

Are you serious? "Even if we accept the "under the radar" justification provided, it's preposterous that a smuggling flight would not be detected in the goddamned capital of the most motherfucking militarized state on the planet. And finally, just who the fuck would be their customers?" That is the second blatant contradiction I have got you in, motherfucker.

You dishonest little shit. I fucking mentioned other avenues of smuggling by name in response to your own fucking post. Avenues with negligible motherfucking risk in comparison, you moron.

And once again you demonstrate your piss-poor reading comprehension. Congratulations, you're an idiot.

Uhh, yeah. My reading comprehension sucks because ... I stopped paying close attention to the film during viewing. Dumb twat.

Wayne Enterprises must have an absolutely killer corporate espionage department to be able to futz with every network in Gotham like that.

The issue wasn't just the cellular network; the handsets simply lacked anything resembling the capability required for such a system.

First, there's the problem of generating a "high-frequency pulse" from the telephone. The speakers in cellular telephones are designed neither to emit sound of a sufficiently high frequency or amplitude. Using a lower frequency would render its use obvious.
The frequency response characteristics of the microphones preclude their effectiveness in all but the audible frequencies. Then, there's the associated hardware and software. The handsets are not built for much beyond digitizing and transmitting audio, with little in the way of signal processing capabilities that might be useful here. For such a system, they'd have to be transmitting constantly, which would quickly overload the cellular network. Probably the largest problem is the varying latency -- I laughed hardest when they showed the centimeter resolution of the system.

As the direct analog of the "LOL giant microwave beam" of the previous film, it's simply not physically possible, no matter the handwaving.

[Schuyler Colfax]

nickolay1, oh shut the fuck up already, you're fucking goddamn annoying. No one cares anymore, this stupid argument was dropped an entire page ago.

[Death from the Sea]

Saw it again tonight. 3rd screening. IMAX. It's pretty cool at first, but then just meh. Nothing outrageously special. Also, just in case you are going to see it for the experience, it is only a certain number of scenes done in IMAX, not the whole movie.

Lets see...
Assuming Maroni dies, I've got the count up to 4 for Dent's kills. The Cop in the bar, the driver, Maroni, and what I finally saw tonight, a third mob guy that gets grabbed on the very FAR left of the screen around the neck/jaw. If we assume he is killed and Gordon assumes that Ramirez is dead, that makes 5 dead, two of them cops.

maybe he was including the officers that were guards at the hospital for Dent? the ones that the Joker actually killed but that no one saw the Joker kill....

[Stark]

Err. Okay then. So? Am I not allowed to say I do not enjoy that particular aspect of Batman?

So you're saying a character struggling with morality in a world full of evil where people constantly talk about the nature and types of heroism and how different actions can affect the city is bad? Sure, he could have just shot the Joker, or the Joker got have caught hepatitis and died. Too bad it's a story with a theme, I guess, and not a wargame.

Oh no, Batman is conflicted between his personal needs and the needs of the city and his quest! Bad movie!

[TC Pilot]

Even if the genreal idea behind the super-phone-sonar was silly, it was a nice way of emphasizing Wayne "Becoming the Bat Man," in my opinion. You don't really see that kind of thing in many movies these days.

Regarding Batman's kill count, did he even kill anyone in TDK? Now that I think about it, did he even kill the dog at the beginning? I just watched Burton's Batman and it's kinda jarring how he has no qualms with simply strafing hired goons or throwing them down a 100-story bellfry.

[Mlenk]

I just read on the news that TDK now has the record for being the fastest to gross $300 million in 10 days. Simply amazing.

[Death from the Sea]

Even if the genreal idea behind the super-phone-sonar was silly, it was a nice way of emphasizing Wayne "Becoming the Bat Man," in my opinion. You don't really see that kind of thing in many movies these days.

Regarding Batman's kill count, did he even kill anyone in TDK? Now that I think about it, did he even kill the dog at the beginning? I just watched Burton's Batman and it's kinda jarring how he has no qualms with simply strafing hired goons or throwing them down a 100-story bellfry.

depends if Dent survived the fall or not... other than Dent, I don't think he did kill anyone.

[SylasGaunt]

Relevant and amusing.

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videol ... -the-joker

Oh and watch the news ticker.

[Buddha]

I saw the movie and thought that the beginning was okay, the rising action was okay, but the thing that wasn't okay. Guess what that was...the ending. I hated how he ended up having the whole "everybody hates me again" thing going on. It's almost as if the Joker made Batman emo or just sucked out his cool. Yeah, I hated the ending.

[Stark]

He's 'emo' because he sacrificed his image and 'heroism' to maintain the lie that the city needed to believe in to be a better place? Even after the obvious foreshadowing of Gordon's wife hating him, because he had to lie to everyone to save the day? Even after everyone constantly talked about the nature of heroism and the different ways people serve their various ends? Even after this sacrifice means the Joker loses, whereas otherwise he'd have 'won' by destroying Dent's prosecution? Even though he takes this karmic load on because 'he can take it', whereas others cannot?

I think the finale shows that he has finally become a 'proper' hero, but ironically this requires him to become 'the bad guy' so that he can save Dent's image and by extension the city. I can't wait for the next movie where he's forced to hunt down and silence Fox Mulder who has found proof that Harvey Dent went insane and murdered people, so we can explore how far he'll go to maintain a 'good lie'.

[Havok]

Even if the genreal idea behind the super-phone-sonar was silly, it was a nice way of emphasizing Wayne "Becoming the Bat Man," in my opinion. You don't really see that kind of thing in many movies these days.

Regarding Batman's kill count, did he even kill anyone in TDK? Now that I think about it, did he even kill the dog at the beginning? I just watched Burton's Batman and it's kinda jarring how he has no qualms with simply strafing hired goons or throwing them down a 100-story bellfry.

depends if Dent survived the fall or not... other than Dent, I don't think he did kill anyone.

Huh. That is interesting. He went two movies going out of his way to NOT kill and then he kills the one guy he feels can take his place and truly turn Gotham around and he doesn't even say anything about it? Now I'm sure Dent didn't die.

He definitely killed some doggies though.

Burton's Batman kills the shit out of people. If he wasn't such a bad shot with machine guns AND rockets, he would have killed the Joker.