The USN repeats the Seawolf fiasco

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The USN repeats the Seawolf fiasco

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DDG 1000 Program Will End At Two Ships
By christopher p. cavas
Published: 22 Jul 19:01 EDT (23:01 GMT)

The once-vaunted Zumwalt-class DDG 1000 advanced destroyer program - projected in the late 1990s to produce 32 new ships and subsequently downscaled to a seven-ship class - will instead turn out only two ships, according to highly-placed sources in the Pentagon and on Capitol Hill.

Instead of more DDG 1000s, the U.S. Navy will continue to build more Arleigh Burke-class DDG 51 destroyers, construction of which had been slated to end in 2012. (Northrop Grumman)

Top U.S. Navy and Pentagon brass met July 22 to make the decision, which means the service will ask Congress to drop the request for the third ship in the 2009 defense budget and forego plans to ask for the remaining four ships.

Each of the two ships now under contract will be built, according to the new decision. That means the General Dynamics Bath Iron Works shipyard in Bath, Maine will build the Zumwalt, DDG 1000, and Northrop Grumman's Ingalls yard in Pascagoula, Miss., will construct the yet-to-be-named DDG 1001.

According to sources, the Navy also considered canceling the second DDG 1000 and building just one, but potentially high cancellation costs led to the decision to keep the ship.

The reprogramming decision was made at a conference July 22 hosted by Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England and attended by Navy Secretary Donald Winter, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead and Pentagon acquisition chief John Young.

Officials were busy throughout the day and into the evening making personal phone calls to senators, congressmen and government and industry officials notifying them of the decision. Initial reaction on Capitol Hill seemed to be largely positive.

The move appears to be based on fears that potential cost overruns on the Zumwalts - estimated to cost about $3.3 billion for each of the two lead ships - could threaten other Navy shipbuilding programs. The service declined comment on the July 22 decision, but in a statement released July 17, Navy spokesman Lt. Clay Doss provided some insight.

"We need traction and stability in our combatant lines to reach 313 ships, and we should not raid the combatant line to fund other shipbuilding priorities," Doss said. "Even if we did not receive funding for the DDG 1000 class beyond the first two ships, the technology embedded in DDG 1000 will advance the Navy's future surface combatants."

If the fears that rising costs could torpedo other new ships are indeed behind the decision, it is a tacit recognition that repeated warnings by budget experts from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), Congressional Research Service (CRS) and the Government Accountability Office that the ships face huge potential cost overruns - up to $5 billion each and more - were correct.

Ron O'Rourke of CRS testified March 14 before the House Seapower subcommittee that cost overruns on the first two ships could drive their combined cost to $10.2 billion - an increase of $3.9 billion. Using CBO's figures, O'Rourke pointed out that the remaining five ships, projected by the Navy to cost about $12.8 billion, would likely jump about $8 billion.

"The combined cost growth for all seven ships would be roughly $11.8 billion in then-year dollars, which is a figure roughly comparable to the total amount of funding in Shipbuilding and Conversion, Navy (SCN) appropriation account in certain recent years," O'Rourke testified at the hearing.

Publicly the Navy has long resisted the notion of building more DDG 51s, noting no more of the ships were needed - the class had been planned to end with the 62nd ship - and significant improvements to the design were hard to come by. But in March acting Navy acquisition chief John Thackrah told an audience that the service was looking at working in to the design a new SPY-3 radar to replace the current SPY-1 Aegis arrays, and the Navy also has studied fitting the 155mm Advanced Gun System into the DDG 51 hull. Both systems are part of the DDG 1000 design.

While it is not clear how many more 51s will be built, all sides seem in agreement that the majority of the hulls will go to Bath, which builds only destroyers. Northrop's Ingalls yard, in addition to destroyer construction, remains busy building three classes of amphibious ships and the Coast Guard's new National Security Cutter, and is still working to rebuild its infrastructure following damage from 2005's Hurricane Katrina.

"Bath will have to get the majority of these DDG 51s," said one source familiar with the situation. "They won't be able to go 50-50 with Pascagoula. Ingalls doesn't have the work force right now and Bath needs them."

Depending on the price of the new 51s, anywhere from 8 to 11 ships could be provided over the six-year future years defense plan. "They may continue to build these for the foreseeable future," the source said. "Nothing wrong with the hull, that is a good ship."

------------------------------------------------------------------

So let's see: All teh costs in developing the DDG-1000 hull, and integrating it's electronic systems? All gone.

The ships will themselves be undeployable due to spares costs -- I've heard that we really only have two Seawolves operational, because the third is essentially the parts boat for the other two; since all the spare part contracts were programmed for a much larger buy, and when they were cut to just three boats, the spares program suffered horrendously.

As someone said on Warships1:
Please tell me this is a bad dream. The Navy leadership can't be as stupid as to cancel the DDG1000. Not only is it impossible for the Navy to buy Burke class destroyers for any where near what it paid for the last six units. The cancelation fees will add hundreds of millions to the cost of the two under contruction. Added to that is the addition cost it will add to CG(x), most likely in the billions of dollars because of the lost of technology cause by suppending production of all the systems developed for the Zumwalt class and other next generation ships.

And please don't tell me thay will use those system on the new destroyers. To do that means they would almost have to completly redesign them from the hull up, which I guarantee will cost as much do as the DDG1000 design work, and the only differnce between them will be that the new design will be less ablilies, less firepower, less survivablable, more costly to operated, and will last for only twenty years, because they won't be worth paying for a midlife refit.

Frankly this is just one more reason we need to abolish the Sec of Defence and return to seperate services. Under the current plan. civilian bureaucrates, who have no stake in getting weapon built, but every reason for preventing successful weapon programs, have taken over the Pentagon. The only solution for this problem is to abolish their power base and remove they permanently. This can only be done by returning weapons development and purchasing to the uniform services where the bean counter will be evaluated by hows well they support they follow serviceman and not how much money they can 'save' by crippling weapon development.

BTW I suspect the Navy will be 'surprised' when NG and GD both bid over 2 billion dollars each for the replacement destroyer, and that to keep the other yard from closing will cost a quarter billion a year. Of course they could get the Zumwalts for the same price, if the order them is groups of five or six like they did with the Burkes.
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Post by Ender »

Are we fucking committed to having a tiny navy or something? Jesus, this is stupid.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Any idea what their reasoning is?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Also, I love "cost overruns" on the program. They'll only intensify now that two are to be built -- the contractors need to find a way to make their money back.

Some historic ship building data in normalized 2007 dollars:

SSBN Ohio -- 1984 -- $4,152.30 million (1 boat)
SSBN Ohio -- 1987 -- $2,476.46 million (1 boat)
SSBN Ohio -- 1988 -- $2,244.66 million (1 boat)

SSN-21 (SSN-23) -- 1996 -- $1,991.41 million

SSN Virginia -- 2003 -- $2,785.68 million
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Post by Dartzap »

Goodness me, did the USN just catch a dose of Royal Navy Flu?

Have fun watching those fleets shrink :)
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Post by MKSheppard »

Stuart will be along shortly, He argued a while back in a consultancy role against the DDG-1000 program as it was structured; arguing that the Navy should have put the new gun and new electronics into a hypothetical Flight III DDG-51 and built several hulls to debug everything; and THEN put them into the all new DDG-1000 hull to reduce development problems.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Wow. The USN is using the RN admiralty as a role model. This is, for lack of a better term, shit.

Way to go. Now we just need to have the Raptor cancelled and we've the whole set.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

So the navy has succeeded in doing the inverse of the ideal? That's awesomely stupid.


Though I suspect Congress will refuse to cancel the third DDG-1000 which has already been allocated, so we will end up with three like the Seawolfs, in addition to another dozen Burkes.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Oh, my representatives are going to hear about this. They're going to hear it long and loud.
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Post by Crazedwraith »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Though I suspect Congress will refuse to cancel the third DDG-1000 which has already been allocated, so we will end up with three like the Seawolfs, in addition to another dozen Burkes.
So, In the end the Navy's just a bunch of Berks?
Sorry. Carry on moment. I couldn't resist.
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Post by VT-16 »

Let's play around in fantasy land for a moment. Any use for two Iowas? You know you want to. :wink:
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Post by Lonestar »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:So the navy has succeeded in doing the inverse of the ideal? That's awesomely stupid.


Though I suspect Congress will refuse to cancel the third DDG-1000 which has already been allocated, so we will end up with three like the Seawolfs, in addition to another dozen Burkes.
I believe only the Senate allocated the money, not the House.

I believe it says so in the WSJ article I posted AN HOUR BEFORE YOU IN THE HAB SHEP!!! :x
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Post by Falkenhayn »

VT-16 wrote:Let's play around in fantasy land for a moment. Any use for two Iowas? You know you want to. :wink:
What else are Commandants of the Marine Corps going to beat the navy over the head with?

Quick question: does the Navy maintain a school/MOS/industrial base for operating 16" guns and gun crews anymore?
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Post by Lonestar »

Falkenhayn wrote:
What else are Commandants of the Marine Corps going to beat the navy over the head with?

Quick question: does the Navy maintain a school/MOS/industrial base for operating 16" guns and gun crews anymore?
No.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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Post by Stuart »

Darth Wong wrote:Any idea what their reasoning is?
At its simplest, nobody has any faith the ships will work and if they do work, nobody quite knows what they will be working for.

DDG-1000 has been a screwed program right from the start. The people behind it broke every single rule of naval design and consciously did not discuss the ship or her basic theoretical precepts with anybody. The ship was, you see, a break from the hidebound traditions of the past that tied the navy to obsolete ideas and prevented them from striding forward into the bright days of the future

Those thirty words have doomed more naval programs that guns, torpedoes and missiles combined.

Some of the hide-bound conservative ideas they discarded included floating, moving, shooting, steering etc.

The big problem was that they changed everything in one go. They wanted new weapons, new electronics, new machinery, new crew levels, new hull design. Everything was new, everything was a major break with past practice. Of course, it all ended in tears, there's no way it could have done anything else (PS, check HPCA and you'll note I told everybody a week before teh official announcement that this was going to happen).


Examples. The ship is supposed to use a radical hull form to reduce its radar cross section. . Great, only that hull form using a wave-piercing bow and tumblehome. Now, lets look at this more closely. Its a wave-piercing bow. That means it - uhhhh - pierces waves. In fact the water from the pierced wave floods over the deck, along the main deck, washes over the forward weaponry, hits the bridge and flows down the ship's side. Now, that water weighs quite a bit, several tens of tons in fact and its moving at the speed of the wave plus teh speed of the ship. That wave, when it hits the gun mount and bridge front is literally like driving into a brick wall at 60mph. The gun mount shield is made of fiberglass to reduce radar cross section. The wave also generates suction as it passes over the VLS system, sucks the doors open and floods the silos. The missiles don't like that. Spray is one thing (bad enough) but being immersed in several tons of water flowing down is quite another. Then we have the problem of the water flowing over the deck. It is stronge nough to sweep men off their feet. In fact, its so dangerous that ships that operate under such conditions have to use submarine rules - nobody on deck. But to work the ship, we need people on deck. Uhhh, problem here?

Now tumblehome. This means the ship's sides slop inwards from the waterline, not outwards like normal ships do. Now, we take a slice through the ship at the waterline. That's called the ship's waterplane. There;s a thing called tons per inch immersion, the weight of water needed to sink the ship one inch. TPI is proportional to waterplane area. As the ship's waterplane area increases it requires more tons to make it sink an inch. as the waterplane decreases it requires fewer tons to make it sink per inch. Now, with a conventional flared hull, as the ship sinks in the water, its waterplane area increases, so it requires a steadily increasing rate of flooding to make the ship sink at a steady rate. If the rate of flooding does not increase, eventually the ship stops sinking. This cheers up the crew immensely.

However, with tumblehome, the waterplane area decreases as the ship sinks into the water. So, the ship will have a steadily-increasing rate of immersion at a steady rate of flooding. in short, for a steady rate of flooding, the ship sinks faster and faster. The ship will not stop sinking. This is immensely depressing.

The problem is the damage goes much further than that. As a ship with a conventional flared hull rolls, the increasing waterplane area gives her added bouyancy on the side that is submerging and gives her a moment that pushes upwards, back against the roll. That stabilizes her and she returns to an even keel. With a tumblehome hull, as the ship rolls, the decreasing waterplane area reduces bouyancy on the side that's going down, givinga moment that pushes downwards in teh same direction as a roll. This destabilizes her so she rolls faster and faster until she goes over.

Having dealt with the hull design, we now move to the machinery. The DDG-1000 is supposed to have mininally-manned machinery spaces. This will save manpower etc etc etc. There's a problem, all of that automation doesn't work. Its troublesome, unreliable, extremely expensive and it needs somebody to watch it and make sure it does it's job. In fact, its useless. It gets worse. The purpose of a crew on a warship is not to make it goa round and do things. Its to try and patch the holes and put out teh fires when other warships do things to it. Repairing damage cannot be automated (did I tell you that DDG-1000 was supposed to have automated damage control systems ? Ah, forgot that but it doesn't matter, they didn't work either). So, having designed a hull that sinks if somebody looks at it crosswise, we now remove teh people who were supposed to try and stop it sinking.

Now we come to the electronics. Great idea here. Put all the antennas into a single structure and we can cut RCS. That causes a problem called electronic interference. The systems all shut eachother down. And they did. Very efficiently. The radar suite on DDG-1000 was the world's first self-jamming missile system. Oh, they took down the comms and gunnery fire control as well. Did I also mention that the flow noise from the wave-piercing bow was enough to prevent the sonar working? That was an easy problem to solve. Remove the sonar. Anyway easy way to solve the interference problems, use multi--functional antennas. That sounds good. One day, when they get them working, I'll let you know. MFAs are pretty good when used in their place but NOT for operating mutually incompatible systems.

The gun. Ah yes, the gun. It fires shells, 155mm ones. Guided shells whose electronics can withstand 40,000G. The acceleration in the gun barrel is 100,000G. Ooops. Problems. Then we come to the missiles. They;re in new silos, all along the deck edge. Can anybody see the problems with that? Like moment and rolling inertia? The designers couldn't which proves they know slightly less about the maritime environment than the deer currently eating the bushes outside my office window.

Now, all these problems are occurringa t once and the fact that everything in the ship is new means that one can't be fixed until the rest are.

And that is why DDG-1000 got cancelled.
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Post by Lonestar »

So, wait...does that mean we're likely to see more Burkes?

As for the crew thing, that was much discussed when I was in. The community Surface Warfare magazine had an article at one point gushing over how on the LCS they were going to be minimally manned with cross-training of rates.

The example they used was FCs being in the same division as ITs and doing the same job as them.

The minimal manning also mandated that in the case of GQ, no repairs lockers would be manned up, everyone would sit in their space/Force Protection station. Sorry, there are no extra sailors to be had in the eevent of a fire.

Finally, in regards to DDG-1000 manning, a lot of sailors looked at the manning levels and thought "Holy....what are the in-port duty sections going to look like?" What's retention going to look like if you have to spend every other 24 hours in port on the ship? Pierside in San Diego?

Yeah, there's a lot os skepticism among the blueshirts whenever someone says "minimal manning", either on the LCS or DDG-1000.
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Post by Lonestar »

Lonestar wrote:So, wait...does that mean we're likely to see more Burkes?

Nevermind, someone pointed me to your HPCA thread of last week predicting this and what the replacement would be.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

So, basically, Zumwalt was the Navy's analogue to the Army's Fictional Combat System.
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Post by CaptHawkeye »

While the Navy's at it why don't they just decommission the Ticonderogas and have done with it? We'll be a Navy of Anti-Sub capability and that's about it.

By producing more Arleigh Burke in it's place they're just subscribing to bullshit Second Class Battleship nonsense.
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Post by Lonestar »

CaptHawkeye wrote:While the Navy's at it why don't they just decommission the Ticonderogas and have done with it? We'll be a Navy of Anti-Sub capability and that's about it.

By producing more Arleigh Burke in it's place they're just subscribing to bullshit Second Class Battleship nonsense.
I wouldn't equate the Arleigh Burke with, say, the Chung-hoon in capability.
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Post by CaptHawkeye »

I actually don't think their's anything wrong with AB. They're good ships. The problem is that they have absolutely nothing to replace it with anywhere in the future. Their's no plan.

But hey, it's not like they canceled DDG-1000 entirely. Maybe if the 2 ships in the line impress congress enough they'll build more. They'll have catching up to do though.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

CaptHawkeye wrote:I actually don't think their's anything wrong with AB. They're good ships. The problem is that they have absolutely nothing to replace it with anywhere in the future. Their's no plan.

But hey, it's not like they canceled DDG-1000 entirely. Maybe if the 2 ships in the line impress congress enough they'll build more. They'll have catching up to do though.
Build more pieces of fucking crap?
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Post by CaptHawkeye »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
CaptHawkeye wrote:I actually don't think their's anything wrong with AB. They're good ships. The problem is that they have absolutely nothing to replace it with anywhere in the future. Their's no plan.

But hey, it's not like they canceled DDG-1000 entirely. Maybe if the 2 ships in the line impress congress enough they'll build more. They'll have catching up to do though.
Build more pieces of fucking crap?
That's the direction they seem quite intent on taking. :)
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Post by MKSheppard »

Stuart wrote:The ship is supposed to use a radical hull form to reduce its radar cross section. . Great, only that hull form using a wave-piercing bow and tumblehome.
I've seen footage of the tank tests of the hull form, courtesy of Sea Skimmer who found it, and the hull really does work in reducing the motion of the ship in moderate sea states.

However, Skimmer and me talked about the other problems we found from the other footage -- we noticed the fact that in higher sea states, it's literally submarining; hence I predicted that Zumwalts 3 through 7 would be built with a more conventional clipper bow and that it would be backfitted to the first two ships after sea trials with DDG-1000 ended up with half the VLS cells flooded.
The gun mount shield is made of fiberglass to reduce radar cross section.
What kind of jiggery pokery is that? I know that the gun shields on a lot of ships are fiberglass to save topweight; but they had to have known that this was going to be a very wet position.
But to work the ship, we need people on deck. Uhhh, problem here?
Doesn't that only apply to the bow at decent speeds? You'd still be able to man the rear helicopter deck at a decent clip.
Repairing damage cannot be automated (did I tell you that DDG-1000 was supposed to have automated damage control systems ?
I've actually thought about that, and they went about implementing it. I'd imagine the hull is subdivided into many compartments with built-in automated pumps in each compartment, so you don't need to have people dragging handy billys around.
Put all the antennas into a single structure and we can cut RCS. That causes a problem called electronic interference.
Yay!

The integrated deckhouse would have been nice once the bugs were worked out, by reducing the number of subsystems that had to be kept functioning and allowing easy under-cover access to all the antennas, instead of some poor schmuckatelli having to climb a mack...
Then we come to the missiles. They;re in new silos, all along the deck edge. Can anybody see the problems with that? Like moment and rolling inertia?
Oh man. I never considered the rolling inertia problem -- I can see how that would mess up missile launch. My main thoughts were around the fact that the peripheral VLS was an excuse to actually have a lot of explosions and fire -- instead of concentrating the missiles into a compact VLS system in the center of the ship where we can shield it from damage, we'll spread them around the ship and make it more likely for a missile cell to be hit and the missile inside to ignite!
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Post by CaptHawkeye »

I was aware that the Zumwalt had hit some pretty nasty holdovers in it's program (something everybody deals with). But Stuart shed light that a lot of the issues are pretty much insurmountable. I figured the issues with it wanting to be a submarine would be fixed with a hull re-design. It goes a lot deeper. You'll have to re-design the whole ship from the ground up just to make it not suck.
Best care anywhere.
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