The Dark Knight (GODDAMN SPOILERS)

[SirNitram]

Havekoff, frankly, you sound like someone who freaks out at every movie derived from a popular source, the rampant, frothing purist. You're not sounding very sensible in your objections; the idea of 'Who was introduced first' is a fucking ridiculous standard.

Shut the fuck up. That is hardly the only objection I have to the idea I have of combining two completely separate characters into one. If I was a purist as you say, I would have "freaked out" because The Joker wasn't dumped in acid or because Dent didn't get acid thrown on his face to turn him into Two-Face.

Love the attitude. But your overreaction to a twist in a character's identity is enough proof of my point to not bother me. Is it necessarily a good idea? No. Change for change's sake is generally a bad one. But just reflexively going on and on about how sacred a comic book character is when we've seen this team can produce excellent alternates is mind-numbingly pathetic.

[Havok]

Havekoff, frankly, you sound like someone who freaks out at every movie derived from a popular source, the rampant, frothing purist. You're not sounding very sensible in your objections; the idea of 'Who was introduced first' is a fucking ridiculous standard.

Shut the fuck up. That is hardly the only objection I have to the idea I have of combining two completely separate characters into one. If I was a purist as you say, I would have "freaked out" because The Joker wasn't dumped in acid or because Dent didn't get acid thrown on his face to turn him into Two-Face.

Love the attitude.

You gonna cry?

But your overreaction to a twist in a character's identity is enough proof of my point to not bother me. Is it necessarily a good idea? No. Change for change's sake is generally a bad one. But just reflexively going on and on about how sacred a comic book character is when we've seen this team can produce excellent alternates is mind-numbingly pathetic.

A "twist"? Do you even read Batman? Know anything about it? Apparently not. As for being "sacred". that wasn't even a word I used. In fact, I hadn't even thought of her that way until Galvs brought it up. Maybe you should try reading. And would you like to point out where this team made such a drastic change as to completely disregard a character and use another one in its place while just maintaining the old character's name? Because that is what Galvs is suggesting. Talia as Catwoman.

[Galvatron]

And would you like to point out where this team made such a drastic change as to completely disregard a character and use another one in its place while just maintaining the old character's name?

Ducard.

[SirNitram]

You gonna cry?

Maybe from laughter at the presumption I have the slightest emotional investment in this argument...

Your attitude is genuinely amusing, Havekoff. It's so wildly out of proportion with what's discussed.

A "twist"? Do you even read Batman? Know anything about it? Apparently not. As for being "sacred". that wasn't even a word I used. In fact, I hadn't even thought of her that way until Galvs brought it up. Maybe you should try reading. And would you like to point out where this team made such a drastic change as to completely disregard a character and use another one in its place while just maintaining the old character's name? Because that is what Galvs is suggesting. Talia as Catwoman.

Except of course, outside of your rantings and preconceptions and a few off-hand remarks here, nothing about merging Kyle and the junior Ghul is set so deeply as to simply be 'Completely disregard! Just maintain the name!'.

And yes, I've read Batman. You can froth at the mouth about how I must not have done because I don't agree with your wild outbursts here, but that again reinforces the point that you're a looney on this. No one can have read the source material, according to you, without reaching the same conclusions as you.

Sorry, no go. It's a funny joke, but that's about it. But do continue this silly crusade, inflating it in your own mind, complete with inflating it's importance to others. I hear from Phil Gramm inflating bubbles with no restraint is awesome and never causes problems. Or is that joke too detached from comic books for you?

[Havok]

And would you like to point out where this team made such a drastic change as to completely disregard a character and use another one in its place while just maintaining the old character's name?

Ducard.

Well I should have said, main or major character, but conceded. I thought you were leaving.

[SirNitram]

No, it doesn't. Like in the famous quote by Mark Twain; it may improve Talia, but it would deteriorate the Cat.

Giving more to her than the classical rendition would certainly vastly alter the cat, but a jewel thief with a crush on Bats isn't really going to get into a Nolan.

*Does wife-resistant kevlar body armour* Please don't make me mention that thing that happened to theatres which damn near requires a redemption of the character, even with heavy changes? I don't want bits removed with claws.

[Galvatron]

Well I should have said, main or major character, but conceded. I thought you were leaving.

I'm not leaving, just conceding the argument. I can't adequately defend my idea in a way that'll mollify your objections so I won't even continue to try.

[Havok]

Well I should have said, main or major character, but conceded. I thought you were leaving.

I'm not leaving, just conceding the argument. I can't adequately defend my idea in a way that'll mollify your objections so I won't even continue to try.

No, you really can't. Combining Talia and Catwoman because they both have a crush on Batman and either one would look good in the Catwoman suit is the same as saying lets combine The Riddler and Joker bacause they both hate Batman and both wear green. It is fucking stupid.

[Galvatron]

Can't we just agree that I'm right?

[Darth Wong]

Does Havokeff think anyone really gives a shit if some character they've never heard about gets merged with some lame-ass character they have heard of, in order to tie some threads together? If it works in the movie, then it's a good idea. Nobody's going to come out of the theatre and rush to the nearest comic book store to research the "correct" life history of some female character whose name sounds vaguely like it should belong to a porn star.

[Elfdart]

The problem with Catwoman is that if she's in the third movie, they're going to need someone else as well. The character is just too small time to be the only antagonist in a big budget summer blockbuster. Catwoman isn't even really evil, just a burglar who gets a kick out of stealing stuff while flirting with Batman.

But she's hot! Julie Newmar gave me one of my first boners. Maybe Jessica Biel as Catwoman. She has the legs and the ass to pull off the costume.

I haven't seen this Batman movie yet, and at first I wasn't going to. But a friend of mine said the almost 3 hours zipped by and I wouldn't be bored, so I might check it out during the week.

I still wish they had the word "POW!" flash across the screen when Batman punched somebody.

[Pelranius]

Well, couldn't Nolan just make Selina Kyle as Ras's daughter (but as a completely separate character from Talia)?

That way, Catwoman can draw on the League's resources.

Maybe one could also the work Talia into a mix, as part of a power struggle in the League.

[GuppyShark]

I thought it was fucking awesome and even though the running time was long, I didn't feel it. However, they carried over some of the disappointing features of Batman Begins - primarily:

* Christian Bale in the bat mask looks stupid. He's hard to look at, the mask just looks too goofy. I don't know how Tim Burton pulled it off in Batman and Batman Returns, but where Michael Keaton looked badass, Bale looks goofy. Nolan's batman works much better as a distinct shape - everytime they focus on him talking with the camera on just his face, it's almost comical.

* Which brings me to the way Batman, as distinct from Bruce Wayne, talks. It's totally unnecessary and it makes my throat hurt just hearing it.

I'm really glad I'm not the only person who has trouble with Bale-Batman. He's absolutely fine as Bruce Wayne, but the actual Batman action didn't really work for me.

[Themightytom]

Edit: Does anyone think there's ANYONE out there who would make a decent new Joker, or has Ledger done such a job that nobody will ever see anything like it again?

Difficult question. I don't think Ledger's performance prevents other takes on Joker. I DO think, though, that any attempt to mimic his Joker will be seen as crass. This leads to the conclusion that the Joker should not be used in the next Nolanverse movie.

If the Joker is ever recast, it should be in a time-advanced story, sort of a "Dark Knight Returns" kind of thing. Then you could change the Joker's look and mannerisms enough to justify a recasting, without seeming tasteless.

For some reason ledgers voice in this reminded me of Richard Drayfus :-p
But to hire Richard Drafus would be to add a mustache to the mona lisa with a marker. I really enjoyed the movie. i definitely enjoyed the portrayal of Jim Gordon, in most of the other movies and TV series is was a bumbling oaf on the order of Commandant Lassard (Many of you will do many many Good things!), but in the comics hes always been pretty badass.

I am ninety percent sure batman didn't MEAN to save Harvey, The Joker pulled a joke on him. Someone way back in the thread got that backwards. he totally said he was going after Rachel.

one thing I loved was the characterizations in the film. The other batmans had NO understanding of how a mental illness works. it was always Trigger event= instant Lunacy.

Harvey Dent from the onset presented evidence of someone with a borderline personality disorder, and he used his "White knight" persona as a defense mechanism. you could SEE it cracking when batman intervened when he was about to shoot the criminal he caught.

if you've ever worked with someone with BPO they are VERY passionate about what they beliee in and while you can tell something is off about their beliefs, the distorted root is so deeply buried it is hard to dig out. people like that are hard to identify as having a mental illness because they are very well adjusted but if their root is challenged, (The most often case is with the death of a loved one) they decompensate REALLY fast, and their heads start spinning they speakin tongues and.... alright I'm exagerating, but they can get either VERY weepy or VERY hostile when ten seconds ago they were a perfectly composed rational human being.

When Rachel died and he lost it he could have easily retreated into depression, but then the joker bounced along with his (admitedly thin) argument that the joker wasn't responsible, others were. The Joker didn't "beliee" what he was saying, but he knew on some level it was what Dent wanted to hear. I think we got to witness where ledger started having problems, as he stated "Sanity is like gravity, one little push and..."

And than batman metaphorically and litterally left the joker suspended in mid air/mid lucidity spinning around. I'm sure the joker wishes he could either go completely insane and stop hovering on the precipice, but hes both insane and lucid and that is why he is the joker.

I also love that we have no fricking clue where the joker came from, and that one of his calling cards is the "Why so serious" speech which he tailors to terrorize his victims. i wonder what he would ahve said to Batman, it could have been a chilling reveal that he knew Bruce's identity all along which i wouldn't doubt.

Batmans STFU response was just awesome

Now that batman is in his hunted period, there has to be some great cataclysm that Gotham would call on him for out of despration during which it would come out that two face was the one who killed those cops.

Gordon speaking to his son was almost as goo as Alred speaking to bruce in the first movie. Instead of "Why do we fall master bruce?" We got "Why is he running dad?" "Because we have to chase him son."

[Lancer]

Just a note, but Dent wasn't about to shoot the henchman he caught. Even if he kept on flipping the coin forever, he would have kept on getting heads, but the henchman would have had no way of knowing that. It foreshadows his fall, but it also serves as a contrast to illustrate how far he's fallen.

[Ender]

I liked how they explained away how the Joker gets people to follow him in that scene - the guy is known for killing his henchmen at the drop of a hat if it furthers his whims. Who follows him in that scenario? The mentally ill.

Which really makes the Joker that much more fucked up, as he is turning the mentally ill into living bombs and killers and killing them when they are so screwed up that they don't know what they are getting into.

[Pelranius]

Did Moroni actually die? I don't recall seeing any actual evidence of his death (and he did get the clean heads).

[General Zod]

Did Moroni actually die? I don't recall seeing any actual evidence of his death (and he did get the clean heads).

If he walked away at all he would've been seriously injured. So it's entirely possible he's still around and might get brought back for future films.

[Anguirus]

I am ninety percent sure batman didn't MEAN to save Harvey, The Joker pulled a joke on him. Someone way back in the thread got that backwards. he totally said he was going after Rachel.

I'm 100% sure, since my second viewing. Gordon tells the police to converge on 250-52nd street, where Dent was supposed to be. They instead arrived at Dawes' location just in time to see her killed.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Did Moroni actually die? I don't recall seeing any actual evidence of his death (and he did get the clean heads).

If he walked away at all he would've been seriously injured. So it's entirely possible he's still around and might get brought back for future films.

Dent and Maroni were in the same crash. Dent survived, no reason Maroni couldn't.

[General Zod]

Dent and Maroni were in the same crash. Dent survived, no reason Maroni couldn't.

Dent also specifically buckled his seat belt before shooting the driver, didn't he? Maroni didn't have his on which is what makes his survival more questionable.

[Lancer]

IIRC, Dent unbuckled his seat and opened the door before shooting the driver.

[Maxentius]

IIRC, Dent unbuckled his seat and opened the door before shooting the driver.

This is what happened, although he's never shown actually opening the door. I believe he just grips it, pulls the trigger, and then the cut to exterior occurs.

[Themightytom]

IIRC, Dent unbuckled his seat and opened the door before shooting the driver.

This is what happened, although he's never shown actually opening the door. I believe he just grips it, pulls the trigger, and then the cut to exterior occurs.

he pretty much flipped a GIANT coin with that, he made the car crash and let fate decide who would die, um after he buckled himself in and braced himself. I actually expected him to jump out of the car but he definitely didn't.

Two face appears to trust fate but when it gives him an unsatisfactory answer he then manipulates it a little. he DID let the female cop live though.

[CaptainChewbacca]

As a footnote, I really like the depth of backround they gave to Alfred. Taking on mercenaries in Burma and such.