The Dark Knight (GODDAMN SPOILERS)

[Galvatron]

To the general public, there's NO ADVANTAGE to adding in the Talia aspects to Selina's character and it will just infuriate those who DO know who Talia is in the comics.

Of course there's an advantage: it ties Catwoman into the already established mythos of the Nolanverse Batman's origin.

[LadyTevar]

Speaking of the Catwoman, did anybody catch the moment when Batman's trying on his new armor and the following exchange occurs?

Alfred: "This is lighter and stronger, but the joints make you vulnerable to knives and guns."
Wayne: "What about dogs?"
Alfred: "Rottweiler or Chihuahua?"
Wayne: "Big ones."
Alfred: "It'll protect you from bites, but I don't know about cats."

After the movie, one of my friends took that to be foreshadowing about the Catwoman.

**WHAPS** That wasn't Alfred, that was Lucius!

[LadyTevar]

\sorry who's Talia? Selena's Catwoman if I remember right.

Selina Kyle is Catwoman.

Talia bint Ghul is Ras al Ghul's daughter. In comics, she's about 80 years old, but looks 25 thanks to a trip to the Lazarus pit. Depending on the continuity, she may have given birth to Bruce's son.

[Jim Raynor]

The problem with Catwoman is that if she's in the third movie, they're going to need someone else as well. The character is just too small time to be the only antagonist in a big budget summer blockbuster. Catwoman isn't even really evil, just a burglar who gets a kick out of stealing stuff while flirting with Batman.

[Galvatron]

The problem with Catwoman is that if she's in the third movie, they're going to need someone else as well. The character is just too small time to be the only antagonist in a big budget summer blockbuster. Catwoman isn't even really evil, just a burglar who gets a kick out of stealing stuff while flirting with Batman.

Penguin. Just as long he's closer to how Publius described him rather than the freak of nature that he was in the Batman Returns...

The Penguin in the comics has long since discarded the role of hands-on criminal in favor of being a powerful mob boss who is for all intents and purposes untouchable (even the Batman has admitted that he can't prove the Penguin's involvement in any of his crimes). He has, in effect, become Professor Moriarty. Thus he is permitted to retain his "aristocrat of crime" persona but without being the one-note crook he used to be. If anything, he is rather more likely to fit in the Nolan framework than such characters as Poison Ivy, the Riddler, or the Mad Hatter -- especially because the character as he is now written would require more detective work and less fisticuffs to defeat, meaning that there is room in such a story for the Batman to grow as a character.

[Havok]

Rolling Talia and Selina together would be stupid.

But then you go on to explain exactly why it's NOT stupid...

Ra's has already been introduced and supposedly killed. Having a plot with his daughter coming after Wane/Batman would make sense in this universe. Also having a Catwoman story is practically mandatory at this point as she is almost the most well known of the remaining villains, and certainly the most liked. There is also room for a love interest now that Dawes is dead, and either Talia or Selina can fill the roll, preferably both. It also gets the franchised refocused on Batman/Bruce Wayne and can give time for a cool down from Ledger's Joker and maybe time to find a suitable replacement.

So, assuming there's only ONE movie left before Nolan and Bale move on to other projects, what you just stated above is WHY I think merging the two characters makes the most sense.

I'm not under the impression that just because Nolan isn't going to be around for every movie, doesn't mean that this reboot of the franchise isn't going to continue. You shouldn't be either.

My point was that Selina and Talia can both be interesting characters on their own and each can support a movie on their own. Also, as has been pointed out, the general public knows who Selina Kyle is and the only thing served by rolling her and Talia together is to annoy the comic fans.

And please tell me, what exactly would Selina Kyle-Shire's motivation be for being a cat burglar? If she IS the daughter of Ra's, she would be in a position of immense power and influence why would she be traipsing around Gotham stealing jewels? Or any other incarnation of Catwoman?

[Havok]

The problem with Catwoman is that if she's in the third movie, they're going to need someone else as well. The character is just too small time to be the only antagonist in a big budget summer blockbuster. Catwoman isn't even really evil, just a burglar who gets a kick out of stealing stuff while flirting with Batman.

I disagree. Selina Kyle is quite a strong character on her own if you do her right. I do agree that other villains should be used, just as The Joker shared time with Two-Face and Scarecrow, the mob, and dirty cops as we just saw.

[Surlethe]

Speaking of the Catwoman, did anybody catch the moment when Batman's trying on his new armor and the following exchange occurs?

Alfred: "This is lighter and stronger, but the joints make you vulnerable to knives and guns."
Wayne: "What about dogs?"
Alfred: "Rottweiler or Chihuahua?"
Wayne: "Big ones."
Alfred: "It'll protect you from bites, but I don't know about cats."

After the movie, one of my friends took that to be foreshadowing about the Catwoman.

**WHAPS** That wasn't Alfred, that was Lucius!

Yikes! Thanks; my memory for lines and scenes is pretty poor. After a day or two, most of them blur together.

[Havok]

Of course there's an advantage: it ties Catwoman into the already established mythos of the Nolanverse Batman's origin.

The Nolan movies are all about reboots and re envisioning, there is no reason to "tie" her into a character already introduced.

[Paolo]

If anything rolling Talia into Selina makes her a WORSE character from the not-Batman savvy audience's POV.
Because said audience DOES know Catwoman and likely either knows she ISN'T related to Ra's Al Gul or have no clue who Ra's Al Gul is to begin with.. To the general public, there's NO ADVANTAGE to adding in the Talia aspects to Selina's character and it will just infuriate those who DO know who Talia is in the comics.

I don't think there's much evidence that the general public knows--much less cares--who Catwoman is beyond some supervillianous played by Michelle Pfeiffer sixteen years ago or Halle Berry not long enough ago, much less who she's related to in the comic continuity. As for those steeped in the comic culture, can't they just rationalize that Nolan's work takes place somewhere in the Multiverse or Hypertime or whatever DC's calling it now?

[Lonestar]

Well, I just came in from watching it...I must admit, that was a lot more acting than I expected from Ledger.

[Galvatron]

I'm not under the impression that just because Nolan isn't going to be around for every movie, doesn't mean that this reboot of the franchise isn't going to continue. You shouldn't be either.

I'm not. I fully expect the studio to milk the cash cow and run the franchise into the ground yet again. Hey, maybe they can bring back Joel Schumacher to take over after Nolan leaves! Ya think?

My point was that Selina and Talia can both be interesting characters on their own and each can support a movie on their own. Also, as has been pointed out, the general public knows who Selina Kyle is and the only thing served by rolling her and Talia together is to annoy the comic fans.

Batman isn't James Bond. Giving him two more love interests over the course of two more movies strikes me as painfully trite. He should get ONE more love interest. A Lois Lane to Rachel's Lana Lang. Catwoman could be that. And she could also be Ra's al Ghul's daughter. Two birds. One stone.

And please tell me, what exactly would Selina Kyle-Shire's motivation be for being a cat burglar? If she IS the daughter of Ra's, she would be in a position of immense power and influence why would she be traipsing around Gotham stealing jewels? Or any other incarnation of Catwoman?

Why do you assume she has to be a jewel thief? Do you really expect Nolan to take the character in that direction? Why should she be any closer to the source material than Tim Burton's Catwoman?

[Galvatron]

Of course there's an advantage: it ties Catwoman into the already established mythos of the Nolanverse Batman's origin.

The Nolan movies are all about reboots and re envisioning, there is no reason to "tie" her into a character already introduced.

LOL! And yet re-envisioning Catwoman as something more than a sexy jewel thief is wrong? At least combining her with Talia and tying her into the characters and situations from the first movie gives her a backstory with some relevance and depth.

[LadyTevar]

Of course there's an advantage: it ties Catwoman into the already established mythos of the Nolanverse Batman's origin.

The Nolan movies are all about reboots and re envisioning, there is no reason to "tie" her into a character already introduced.

LOL! And yet re-envisioning Catwoman as something more than a sexy jewel thief is wrong? At least combining her with Talia and tying her into the characters and situations from the first movie gives her a backstory with some relevance and depth.

No, it doesn't. Like in the famous quote by Mark Twain; it may improve Talia, but it would deteriorate the Cat.

[Paolo]

Why do you assume she has to be a jewel thief? Do you really expect Nolan to take the character in that direction? Why should she be any closer to the source material than Tim Burton's Catwoman?

And even for comic book culture, shouldn't the lack of a set in stone continuity for the most popular superhero titles give filmmakers immense creative flexibility? Maybe the execution of multiverses in the actual books comes across as more canonically compelling than the Cliff Notes on Wikipedia...I don't know. But I always thought the continuous reinvisioning, rebooting and retconning typical of DC and Marvel made comic book diehards very accepting of departures from "source material" provided the new stuff proved more innovative and influential than that preceding it. It's hard to see how Nolan's vision isn't succeeding in that respect.

[Galvatron]

How does it deteriorate her? Catwoman as a concept is pretty damn two-dimensional. I think it elevates her, if anything.

[Paolo]

No, it doesn't. Like in the famous quote by Mark Twain; it may improve Talia, but it would deteriorate the Cat.

If Wikipedia's worth anything and we're talking about Miller's take on Catwoman, I'd have to agree. A princess is a less compelling character than a hooker.

[JME2]

Just saw it. Very, very well done. A few minor qualms, but like its predecessor, a near-perfect film.

4.5/5

[Havok]

I'm not under the impression that just because Nolan isn't going to be around for every movie, doesn't mean that this reboot of the franchise isn't going to continue. You shouldn't be either.

I'm not. I fully expect the studio to milk the cash cow and run the franchise into the ground yet again. Hey, maybe they can bring back Joel Schumacher to take over after Nolan leaves! Ya think?

The topic of another thread I think.

My point was that Selina and Talia can both be interesting characters on their own and each can support a movie on their own. Also, as has been pointed out, the general public knows who Selina Kyle is and the only thing served by rolling her and Talia together is to annoy the comic fans.

Batman isn't James Bond. Giving him two more love interests over the course of two more movies strikes me as painfully trite. He should get ONE more love interest. A Lois Lane to Rachel's Lana Lang. Catwoman could be that. And she could also be Ra's al Ghul's daughter. Two birds. One stone.

Who says it has to be over just two movies? And since when has Batman had a Lois Lane? That is something that has always been at the core of Batman/Bruce Wayne, and something that Nolan has already established, the balancing act of the life of The Batman and the life of Bruce Wayne and how he can find room for love in those two lives.

And please tell me, what exactly would Selina Kyle-Shire's motivation be for being a cat burglar? If she IS the daughter of Ra's, she would be in a position of immense power and influence why would she be traipsing around Gotham stealing jewels? Or any other incarnation of Catwoman?

Why do you assume she has to be a jewel thief? Do you really expect Nolan to take the character in that direction? Why should she be any closer to the source material than Tim Burton's Catwoman?

I don't, which is precisely why I wrote "Or any other incarnation of Catwoman?". However there are two aspects of her character that you can't change; the attraction between her and Batman, and the fact that she dresses up like a fucking cat. So again, please explain why the daughter of Ra's would do that, that makes any kind of sense.

[Raj Ahten]

Well, I saw this movie today nad I thought it was very good. When I left, I did so in a dark place. The Joker's evil was enough to sour my afternoon . I only have a few minor nitpicks. First, the Joker was able to get off some rediculous plots, but such villiany is common in many movies and this movie pulled the plots off very well. Second nitpick is where is the Federal response? After the first day of the Joker's antics, you would expect the FBI and other agencies to flood the city. (From a story telling perspective I can see why they wouldn't do that. No need to introduce a bunch of feds to complicate the plot.)

[Havok]

Of course there's an advantage: it ties Catwoman into the already established mythos of the Nolanverse Batman's origin.

The Nolan movies are all about reboots and re envisioning, there is no reason to "tie" her into a character already introduced.

LOL! And yet re-envisioning Catwoman as something more than a sexy jewel thief is wrong? At least combining her with Talia and tying her into the characters and situations from the first movie gives her a backstory with some relevance and depth.

Re-envisioning, not completely re creating or rewriting. None of the characters that Nolan has introduced has strayed all that far from the source material. You are asking for the complete destruction of Selina Kyle and just want to put Talia into a Catwoman suit.

[Havok]

Well, I saw this movie today nad I thought it was very good. When I left, I did so in a dark place. The Joker's evil was enough to sour my afternoon . I only have a few minor nitpicks. First, the Joker was able to get off some rediculous plots, but such villiany is common in many movies and this movie pulled the plots off very well. Second nitpick is where is the Federal response? After the first day of the Joker's antics, you would expect the FBI and other agencies to flood the city. (From a story telling perspective I can see why they wouldn't do that. No need to introduce a bunch of feds to complicate the plot.)

Gordon did call in the National Guard. But really, what more could Feds do that the GCPD wasn't already doing?

[Galvatron]

Who says it has to be over just two movies? And since when has Batman had a Lois Lane? That is something that has always been at the core of Batman/Bruce Wayne, and something that Nolan has already established, the balancing act of the life of The Batman and the life of Bruce Wayne and how he can find room for love in those two lives.

I'm assuming only one more movie. We've already had two and I think we'll be LUCKY to get another. Look at X-Men. Bryan Singer jumped ship from a VERY successful franchise at its peak and it all went downhill from there. I just think it's safer and more realistic to be conservative here and not assume that we're going to get the chance to see both Catwoman AND Talia show up as separate characters in some indefinite number of future Nolanverse films. And if Brett Ratner takes the reins, do we want to?

I don't, which is precisely why I wrote "Or any other incarnation of Catwoman?". However there are two aspects of her character that you can't change; the attraction between her and Batman, and the fact that she dresses up like a fucking cat. So again, please explain why the daughter of Ra's would do that, that makes any kind of sense.

Well, her attraction to Batman is actually faithful to both characters. But why would Talia dress like a cat, you ask? Hmmm, why does Batman dress like a bat? Why does the Joker wear makeup? Why does Scarecrow wear a burlap sack over his head? For that matter, why does the comic book Catwoman dress like a cat? How plausible a rationalization do you require?

Maybe the Nolanverse Talia has the same cat fetish that comic book Selina Kyle does. Is that sufficient?

[Anguirus]

Hey, here's a thought: delve into the Batman/Bruce Wayne duality by having Selina as Batman's love interest and Talia as Bruce's. At the end of the movie, Talia reveals her relationship with Ra's and Selina has to help save him.

But IMO, it would be a crime not to bring back Scarecrow and Two-Face. Dent had a strong arc in this film, but it wasn't long enough to bring up the dissociative disorder that is really the hallmark of his character. Unless Nolan comes out and says "yes he's really really dead" I'd guess he's still around.

As for where they stick him? Arkham, obviously. And then he can get loose and Batman has to become the true hero of Gotham. He will have to redeem himself eventually, unless they just make a complete and total break with the comics.

[Galvatron]

Re-envisioning, not completely re creating or rewriting. None of the characters that Nolan has introduced has strayed all that far from the source material. You are asking for the complete destruction of Selina Kyle and just want to put Talia into a Catwoman suit.

Yeah. So? Is Selina Kyle that sacred?