The Dark Knight (GODDAMN SPOILERS)

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2008-07-20 06:54pm

Could this Joker be secretly affiliated with the League of Shadows? Think about it.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-20 07:22pm

Jim Raynor wrote:I wonder though, where can they go from here? Joker is alive, but will never be used again because the actor's dead. Rachel's dead, and so is Harvey Dent who was expected to be the villain of the third movie. I'm not too sure about them faking his death either. Gordon faked his death in the middle of a chaotic scene, and only pretended to be dead for about a day. Harvey has to stay "dead" for a lot longer than that, and keeping him locked up would mean that the cops and numerous other people conspired to imprison him without a trial. Where would they even keep him?

So if not Harvey, then who? Some of Batman's other villains are too unrealistic for Nolan's style. The Penguin is not that farfetched and is more well-known than most. However, I've read that Nolan isn't too fond of that character.

They've been dropping hints and rumors that Anthony Michael Hall's character can/will be developed into the Riddler.

Kon_El · Post by **Kon_El** » 2008-07-20 07:30pm

EnsGabe wrote:GE: In general, the Joker's logistical support is really out there for a guy 'without plans'. Going from a mobster who shoots his henchmen in his heists to someone with access to large amounts of explosives and able to get them wherever the plot requires would strain belief in any other movie. But that really doesn't bother me here, because the film does a great job of selling the Joker as a symbol of chaos.

Thats what the mob bank robbery at the beginning was all about. Getting enough money to buy a shit load of explosives and the vans/trucks to put them in place.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-20 07:35pm

Kon_El wrote:
EnsGabe wrote:GE: In general, the Joker's logistical support is really out there for a guy 'without plans'. Going from a mobster who shoots his henchmen in his heists to someone with access to large amounts of explosives and able to get them wherever the plot requires would strain belief in any other movie. But that really doesn't bother me here, because the film does a great job of selling the Joker as a symbol of chaos.
Thats what the mob bank robbery at the beginning was all about. Getting enough money to buy a shit load of explosives and the vans/trucks to put them in place.

If you watch the 'Gotham Tonight' material on Comcast-on-demand, you'll see mention to an 'incredibly large' shipment of ammounium nitrate which was stolen off the docks a few weeks before the movie.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2008-07-20 07:41pm

Stark wrote:Or, more simply, he lied. He just said to Dent what he did to drive him crazy, just like how he lies about everything else.

Another perfectly acceptable outcome. The point of the Joker isn't that he's chaos, or randomness, or any of those things. He exists to oppose Batman on a fundamental level. Not order vs. chaos, but hope vs. despair. Joker just wanted to prove that people will burn themselves to nothing without any silly plot-device chemicals.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-20 07:45pm

Yeah, it was cool to see the Joker basically do the same thing as in the Burton Batman, but in a far less camp fashion.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-20 07:48pm

The Joker in this movie is absolute insanity, like Nitram pointed out. He lies and tells truth in everything he says. He believes and disbelieves everything he thinks and does. There is nothing you can peg him on or to. He plays all sides and no sides. He doesn't care if he dies but protects his own life. He is absolute chaos carried out with precision order.
It is fucking great and amazing to watch.

Paolo · Post by **Paolo** » 2008-07-20 07:50pm

Jim Raynor wrote:So if not Harvey, then who? Some of Batman's other villains are too unrealistic for Nolan's style. The Penguin is not that farfetched and is more well-known than most. However, I've read that Nolan isn't too fond of that character.

They've already used Batman's most ingenious and large-scale villain (Ras Al Ghul), his archenemy (Joker), and one of his most personal foes (Two Face). Wouldn't Penguin, or most other villains seem like a big step down from those?

To who, though? I'd wager most non-fans of the franchise (myself included) never heard of Ras al'Ghul before Batman Begins. Batman and the Joker go together like peanut butter and jelly, but for the most part the only basis I have for that impression from a very brief scan of the literature and the first Batman. You might say that DK's ruined me for any other interpretation of the Joker. I would've never known Harvey Dent was as important to the Wayne mythos as he was in Dark Knight if I hadn't read about it somewhere: Tommy Lee Jones' performance in Batman Forever as forgettably campy as it was.

If Nolan and his team can pull off the same magic twice, he can pick any villian in the Rogue Gallery as far as I'm concerned. Reboot away.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-20 07:51pm

Stark wrote:Yeah, it was cool to see the Joker basically do the same thing as in the Burton Batman, but in a far less camp fashion.

Sidenote: I just watched Batman and it is interesting to note that the Burton Batman had no qualms about killing. And he is a really bad shot.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2008-07-20 08:12pm

Jim Raynor wrote:They've already used Batman's most ingenious and large-scale villain (Ras Al Ghul), his archenemy (Joker), and one of his most personal foes (Two Face). Wouldn't Penguin, or most other villains seem like a big step down from those?

That's why I think Catwoman is the only one left that can bring anything meaningful to the table. And, as I said before, they could reimagine Catwoman by merging Selina Kyle with Talia al Ghul in the same way they merged Henri Ducard with Ra's al Ghul. This would combine Batman's two most enduring femme fatale love-interests into one character, and one with whom he already has a connection by way of her father and the League of Shadows from Batman Begins.

Talia, as Selina the Catwoman, would then show up in Gotham as an ostensibly freelance thief/assassin who works for the highest bidder while secretly pursuing her own agenda: revenge against the Batman. The story would practically write itself.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2008-07-20 08:23pm

Galvatron, No. Just.... No. No merging Selena and Talia. Ever.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-07-20 08:25pm

Speaking of the Catwoman, did anybody catch the moment when Batman's trying on his new armor and the following exchange occurs?

Alfred: "This is lighter and stronger, but the joints make you vulnerable to knives and guns."
Wayne: "What about dogs?"
Alfred: "Rottweiler or Chihuahua?"
Wayne: "Big ones."
Alfred: "It'll protect you from bites, but I don't know about cats."

After the movie, one of my friends took that to be foreshadowing about the Catwoman.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2008-07-20 08:29pm

Surely if they ever use Catwoman, won't Halle Berry have to be offered the part?

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2008-07-20 08:31pm

LadyTevar wrote:Galvatron, No. Just.... No. No merging Selena and Talia. Ever.

I think it would be an excellent thing to do. Roll Batman's two greatest loves up into one single package of uber hotness. "Talina" would make him forget all about that frumpy Rachel Dawes.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-07-20 08:33pm

Do remember that to those who are not initiated in Batman lore, Selena and Talia are just names; if it would make for a compelling plot, then why not?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2008-07-20 08:35pm

LadyTevar wrote:Galvatron, No. Just.... No. No merging Selena and Talia. Ever.

What her ladyship said. Henri Ducard was a rather minor character in the comics and folding him into Ra's was no big deal. Selina and Talia are both MAJORLY important parts of the Me myth and ones that have little in common apart from technically being criminals and having a romantic interest in me.
Even if they COULD successfully be rolled into a single character, and I don't think that's possible, it would be a MAJOR waste of story potential.
Besides, it's just plain wrong. *throws transmogrifier batarang at Galvatron*

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2008-07-20 08:38pm

Crazedwraith wrote:Surely if they ever use Catwoman, won't Halle Berry have to be offered the part?

I am holding back from transmogrifying YOU (by a hair's width) because you were obviously kidding and I happen to think that while Catwoman was an awful movie (or at the very least an awful Catwoman movie), that doesn't automatically make her an awful Catwoman.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2008-07-20 08:39pm

Crazedwraith wrote:Surely if they ever use Catwoman, won't Halle Berry have to be offered the part?

Bah! I'll bring back Lee Merriweather before I see Berry back.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2008-07-20 08:44pm

Batman wrote:What her ladyship said. Henri Ducard was a rather minor character in the comics and folding him into Ra's was no big deal. Selina and Talia are both MAJORLY important parts of the Me myth and ones that have little in common apart from technically being criminals and having a romantic interest in me.

Get real. How well-known do you think Talia is outside of Batman fandom? The Nolanverse has already established Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadows and merged them with Bruce's training. Combining Talia with Catwoman would likewise tie her into the backstory of these films and result in a better character overall.

Batman wrote:Even if they COULD successfully be rolled into a single character, and I don't think that's possible, it would be a MAJOR waste of story potential.

Story potential? Just how many more of these Nolanverse movies do you expect them to make?

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-20 08:53pm

Rolling Talia and Selina together would be stupid. Ra's has already been introduced and supposedly killed. Having a plot with his daughter coming after Wane/Batman would make sense in this universe. Also having a Catwoman story is practically mandatory at this point as she is almost the most well known of the remaining villains, and certainly the most liked. There is also room for a love interest now that Dawes is dead, and either Talia or Selina can fill the roll, preferably both. It also gets the franchised refocused on Batman/Bruce Wayne and can give time for a cool down from Ledger's Joker and maybe time to find a suitable replacement.

Block · Post by **Block** » 2008-07-20 08:53pm

\sorry who's Talia? Selena's Catwoman if I remember right.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2008-07-20 08:56pm

havokeff wrote:Rolling Talia and Selina together would be stupid.

But then you go on to explain exactly why it's NOT stupid...

havokeff wrote:Ra's has already been introduced and supposedly killed. Having a plot with his daughter coming after Wane/Batman would make sense in this universe. Also having a Catwoman story is practically mandatory at this point as she is almost the most well known of the remaining villains, and certainly the most liked. There is also room for a love interest now that Dawes is dead, and either Talia or Selina can fill the roll, preferably both. It also gets the franchised refocused on Batman/Bruce Wayne and can give time for a cool down from Ledger's Joker and maybe time to find a suitable replacement.

So, assuming there's only ONE movie left before Nolan and Bale move on to other projects, what you just stated above is WHY I think merging the two characters makes the most sense.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2008-07-20 09:06pm

Galvatron wrote:
Batman wrote:What her ladyship said. Henri Ducard was a rather minor character in the comics and folding him into Ra's was no big deal. Selina and Talia are both MAJORLY important parts of the Me myth and ones that have little in common apart from technically being criminals and having a romantic interest in me.
Get real. How well-known do you think Talia is outside of Batman fandom?

Probably not very. Your point being?

The Nolanverse has already established Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadows and merged them with Bruce's training. Combining Talia with Catwoman would likewise tie her into the backstory of these films and result in a better character overall.

As evidenced by-you saying so.

Batman wrote:Even if they COULD successfully be rolled into a single character, and I don't think that's possible, it would be a MAJOR waste of story potential.
Story potential? Just how many more of these Nolanverse movies do you expect them to make?

As many as they think they can and still make money?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2008-07-20 09:16pm

If anything rolling Talia into Selina makes her a WORSE character from the not-Batman savvy audience's POV.
Because said audience DOES know Catwoman and likely either knows she ISN'T related to Ra's Al Gul or have no clue who Ra's Al Gul is to begin with.. To the general public, there's NO ADVANTAGE to adding in the Talia aspects to Selina's character and it will just infuriate those who DO know who Talia is in the comics.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2008-07-20 09:18pm

Batman wrote:
Galvatron wrote:
Batman wrote:What her ladyship said. Henri Ducard was a rather minor character in the comics and folding him into Ra's was no big deal. Selina and Talia are both MAJORLY important parts of the Me myth and ones that have little in common apart from technically being criminals and having a romantic interest in me.
Get real. How well-known do you think Talia is outside of Batman fandom?
Probably not very. Your point being?

That Talia isn't a "MAJORLY important" part of the you myth outside of comics and can thus be easily modified and merged with Catwoman to suit the Nolanverse.

Batman wrote:
Galvatron wrote:The Nolanverse has already established Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadows and merged them with Bruce's training. Combining Talia with Catwoman would likewise tie her into the backstory of these films and result in a better character overall.
As evidenced by-you saying so.

Better in the sense that it provides a basis for the character's significance other than just being the usual sexy thief who periodically flirts with Batman.

Batman wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Story potential? Just how many more of these Nolanverse movies do you expect them to make?
As many as they think they can and still make money?

With Nolan and Bale? I doubt they're as interested in the money as they are in their craft. After the trilogy, I'm guessing all bets are off.