Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

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Post by JN1 » 2008-06-24 09:35am

Exactly, old, time-honored and trusted military strategem.
As in 'what do you mean you didn't get the signal'?
That sort of thing formed much of the humor in The Navy Lark.
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Post by Raj Ahten » 2008-06-24 09:36am

Chris OFarrell wrote: The way he walked up and said that this Colonel only commands 700 people where as he commands several thousand, thus he is top dog is just pure idiocy to bow to, commands are not surrendered to non formally allied units, especially led by someone who is frankly, not competent to lead them simply because they say so...
Yeah I thought that was a little strange the way that happened. It's like the para commander giving up command to a Northern Alliance leader in the early days of operations in Afghanistan.

Not to say the Colonel wouldn't get a sinking sensation when confronted with Ceaser. At the very least it means a huge problem for him to deal with! (One that he should have some expierience with by now if he's been deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq at all.)

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Post by NecronLord » 2008-06-24 11:45am

To my mind, Ceaser's line is just to put that fellow in his place, and 'promote' Kim to a superior rank over him. He's not actually trying to issue orders to the Paras, but put them in a position where they'll have to listen what he (and more importantly, Kim) says if they want to get something done in Free Hell. IE, stop them simply taking over.

Incidentally, I don't think it'll be long before he gets a new general's commission from Italy. :P
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Post by R011 » 2008-06-24 12:28pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:Yeah...I would have told Ceaser to go to hell (well a different part of it anyway).
Ah. The Wesley Clark approach . ISTR a Para officer named Jackson had a different idea when Wes tried to apply that to Pristina Airport.

Imagine this was Kosovo, Iraq, or Afghanistan and Lt. Col. Jackson just went in to meet with a US Special Forces subaltern only to be met instead by a local resistance leader who informed him that he and his American ally were in charge. Would he really want to make political waves with the local and his American sponsor? He's been politically outmanouvered and he knows it. Do recall that Jackson has probably been in similar positions before. This ain't his first rodeo by a long shot, after all.
Chris OFarrell wrote: The PM of Canada can't give orders to a US division at the North Pole for example. By that same Token, Ceaser has not the slightest authority to tell anyone from Earth to DO anything.
Nor does Jackson have the authority to command Caesar and his local indigenous forces or to command Lt. Kim's superiors who presumably back him. For that matter, Kim on her own authority could tell Jackson to fuck off unless he's got orders from her chain of command. The Brits were hoping she's simply see Jackson's higher rank, salute, and fall in line. Caesar has made it unecessary for her to say that herself, but it's now been said. Jackson can accept that the Brits lost their chance, or he can make things worse. Do note that while a single battlegroup would have trouble pacifying a couple of million annoyed people unless they want to go Roman on them.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-06-24 02:19pm

He has no grounds to claim he owns hell, he is at best a minor local resistance leader, not the Emperor of millions. And he is most surely NOT in the Chain of Command of Kim or the Limey. And unless I'm mistaken, neither the US nor UK recognize Ceasers claim to hell at this point, so his response SHOULD have been 'I'll talk with my Government after this battle and let the Foreign Ministry handle this, please excuse me for now Sir'. After all, the allied Earth powers have declared War on hell and are going to take the place for themselves, thats policy from the top until the top changes it.
He hasn't made a claim to Hell yet. He's just pointed out that he commands the largest military force in the area of Free Hell, and used that to cockblock Jackson's attempt to browbeat Kim's force into submission via sheer rank. Then he flipped around and apparently took over Free Hell, and Kim apparently passively surrendered her command to him.
The way he walked up and said that this Colonel only commands 700 people where as he commands several thousand, thus he is top dog is just pure idiocy to bow to, commands are not surrendered to non formally allied units, especially led by someone who is frankly, not competent to lead them simply because they say so...
I'd like to see where in the chapter that Colonel Jackson actually surrenders command of his Para to Ceaser, because all that happens is that Ceaser suggests that they work together.
“I have some idea, Second Consul Kim is a good teacher. But, you are right so I must ask that you remain in your position, commanding your Para. Perhaps we can get together and work out how best we can deploy your men.”
Again, all Caeser does is cockblock the attempted British takeover, and then suggests that they work together. He doesn't issue any orders to the Brits, though he does appear to assume command of Kim's forces, and she lets him take command without protest. And if she's the acting commander of Free Hell, and she surrenders command to Ceaser, then that does make him the commander of Free Hell and giving him the rank equivilant of a general by virtue of the numbers of people he commands.

In effect, Ceaser did exactly what the British were planning - taking over Free Hell from an exhausted officer out of her depth - but he beat them to punch, using their own confusion and uncertainty to forestall British takeover.
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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2008-06-24 03:38pm

JBG wrote:
As for Ceasar taking control, Brovane is right. He may keep his networks but when the US and the Russians et al decide that he is in the way, he is outa there. 2 million armed with sticks and rocks do not compete with those who have trashed Satan's palace etc etc ... You get my drift.
Caesar is the 'legitimate' ruler of 2 million people in hell, civilian or otherwise, and given that the defeat of hellish forces is more or less forgone, its now a political issue not a military one. Caesar has established legitimacy as a ruler, the US et al are going to have to deal with that, if for no other reason that people in hell, including the native Orc, will inevitably question the right of earth to rule in hell if for no other reason that its not their 'country'.
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Post by R011 » 2008-06-24 03:41pm

Peptuck wrote:
I'd like to see where in the chapter that Colonel Jackson actually surrenders command of his Para to Ceaser, because all that happens is that Ceaser suggests that they work together.r.
Quite. Caesar is no fool. He's a very skilled politician before he's a soldier and he knows a) He hasn't the technical background to take tactical command of 2 PARA and b) He won't want to burn his bridges with people who obviously have power and influence in Hell and on Earth - not at least until he's sure it's in his interest to do so. He's made both a practical military decision and by allowing Jackson to save face, a good political one as well. Next time HMG wants to do something relating to that in which Caesar takes interest, they'll know he's someone with whom they can deal.

Effectively, 2 PARA is now under his command, but as allies, not Roman auxilliaries.
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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2008-06-24 03:49pm

R011 wrote: Effectively, 2 PARA is now under his command, but as allies, not Roman auxilliaries.
It will be interesting to see how GJC runs things, given the make-up of the Hellish population, Roman systems wont cut it. Certainly Earth government's will have to treat with him as a government, if only for the fact that he represents some kind of civil organisation that exists in hell to undertake governance of (liberated)Hell, and when you look at the fuck up that was/is Iraq, earth governments, esp the US, may well welcome it, so they don't have to do it themselves.
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Post by Michael Garrity » 2008-06-24 05:17pm

Greetings, all:

Here's my take on a vessel specifically designed to engage the Harpy aerial threat over the seas of Hell. It was done using the new Springsharp design program. The vessel's design date was set at 1950, because that is the latest date possible with that program.
Please let me know what you think.

USS Detroit, United States Anti-Harpy Warfare vessel laid down 1950

Displacement: 4,494 t light; 4,752 t standard; 5,304 t normal; 5,746 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(431.88 ft / 420.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (20.00 / 21.16 ft)
(131.64 m / 128.02 m) x 15.24 m x (6.10 / 6.45 m)

Armament:
6 - 5.00" / 127 mm 54.0 cal guns - 67.23lbs / 30.50kg shells, 400 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model; 3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 2.14lbs / 0.97kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model, 8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
20 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.52lbs / 0.24kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model, 20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
32 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model, 8 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 450 lbs / 204 kg

Armour:
Belts Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 273.00 ft / 83.21 m 9.30 ft / 2.83 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.00" / 76 mm 273.00 ft / 83.21 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.25" / 32 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.75" / 19 mm - -

Armored deck - multiple decks: 2.00" / 51 mm

Conning Towers: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery
Diesel Internal combustion generators, Electric motors, 2 shafts, 32,979 shp / 24,602 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 994 tons

Complement: 309 - 403

Cost: $9.987 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 165 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 1,437 tons; 27.1 %, Belts: 803 tons; 15.1 %, Armament: 191 tons; 3.6 %, Armor Deck: 404 tons; 7.6 %, Conning Tower: 39 tons; 0.7 %, Machinery: 789 tons; 14.9 %, Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,704 tons; 32.1 %, Fuel, ammunition & stores: 810 tons; 15.3 %, Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons; 7.5 %, Hull above water: 150 tons, On freeboard deck: 50 tons, Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,087 lbs / 4,122 Kg = 145.4 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck, a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.442 / 0.453
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end Aft end
Forecastle: 20.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Aft deck: 35.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Average freeboard: 16.48 ft / 5.02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.3 %
Waterplane Area: 13,309 Square feet or 1,236 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 390 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
Cross-sectional: 0.93
Longitudinal: 2.05
Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent, Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent



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Post by R011 » 2008-06-24 05:52pm

Michael Garrity wrote:Greetings, all:

Here's my take on a vessel specifically designed to engage the Harpy aerial threat over the seas of Hell.
There is no current twin five inch auto-cannon. Ammo handling is easier for single mounts. Use an OtoMelara 127 mm Compact gun if you want a higher RoF than the Mark 45. Better yet, use the 76 mm Mark 75. I'm assuming the twin 40 mm L60 are really 40 mm L70? I'd also replace the mixed single 25 mm and quad .50 cal mounts with 20 mm Gatling guns., say two on the centre-line and two on each broadside. By all means, add extra single .50 cals as they can be fitted.

You can delete most of that armour. You don't need a belt and the gun armour can be reduced to about a half inch. I know Springsharp includes conning tower armour, but they were obsoleter by WWII. Certainly a modern ship with a CIC won't have one. The best harpies can do is carry RPG type weapons - not that they have them. More than splinter protection is extra weight. More important will be CBW protection.

The cost, obviously, reflects building such a ship with 1950's electronics. You couldn't build one today for much less than three hundred million 2008 dollars (about thirty million 1950 bucks).
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-06-24 05:54pm

What modern day hull already in production or very recently in production is it based off of that will allow for ease of mass construction?
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Post by Michael Garrity » 2008-06-24 06:35pm

Duchess:

There is no specific hull design new or recent that I used as a template for this vessel. Instead, I used Springsharp to design an armed merchant vessel. When I read your posts about various vessels with lots of autocannons and HMGs, I modified the design by trading most of the cargo capacity for increased armament and a different hullform.
I will reduce the armor as you suggest. I will reduce the main belt to 2" and the upper belt to 1.5"; this will represent thickened hull plating. I'll keep the main deck at 1" and the conning tower at 2" (the CT plating will represent armor on and around the CIC) for splinter protection and also reduce the armor on the three main turrets.
As for the other types of guns you mention, what is the caliber of the 127-mm OtoMelara weapon? The 40-mm guns on the sides of the vessel were surplus Bofors; I will change the 40-mm caliber to L70 and reduce the main guns to single mounts. Unfortunately, Springsharp doesn't allow for the specification of gatling-type weaponry.
I will also experiment with mounting depth charge racks on the stern; how many racks & DC's do you recommend I add?

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Post by Michael Garrity » 2008-06-24 07:45pm

Duchess:

I have incorporated as many of your design suggestions as the Springsharp will allow. The Vulcan cannons are represented by the 20-mm sextuple mounts, and I have changed the caliber of the 5" mains in accordance with information from Navweps.com; the magazine capacity has been changed to 600 rounds per gun. The Vulcan guns have been arrayed 2 each on the port & starboard, with a further 2 mounts on the ship's centerline. The caliber on the 40-mm guns is now L70 instead of L60, and I have added a goodly number of .50-caliber HMGs.
In addition, two stern-mounted depth charge racks have been added, along with 4 depth-charge throwers (two each on the port & starboard sides). The stern-mounted charges are 600 lbs each, while the charges for each of the four throwers are 200 lbs each.
The weight freed up by reducing the armor has allowed me to make the vessel smaller and faster than the original, along with a longer range.
Those miscellaneous weights on and above the deck (except for the depth charges) are for addition of various electronics and other systems that are deemed necessary.

USS Detroit, United States Anti-Harpy Warfare vessel (Block-II) laid down 1950

Displacement: 3,314 t light; 3,649 t standard; 4,546 t normal; 5,264 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draft (normal/deep)
(411.88 ft / 400.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (18.00 / 19.98 ft)

Armament
3 - 5.00" / 127 mm 52.0 cal guns - 66.74lbs / 30.27kg shells, 600 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model, 3 x Single mounts on centerline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - super-firing
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 2.19lbs / 0.99kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model, 8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
36 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 24,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model, 4 x 2 row sextuple mounts on sides, evenly spread, 2 x 2 row sextuple mounts on centerline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
30 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 6,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model, 30 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 247 lbs / 112 kg
2 stern depth charge racks, 50 charges each (600 lbs per charge)
4 depth charge throwers (2 each port & starboard); 40 charges each (200 lbs per charge)
Depth charges are carried within the ship’s hull


Armor
Belts Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 8.49 ft / 2.59 m
Ends: Unarmored
Upper: 1.00" / 25 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

Gun armor Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.25" / 32 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.75" / 19 mm - -

Armored deck - multiple decks: 1.00" / 25 mm For and Aft decks

Combat Information Center: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery
Diesel Internal combustion generators, Electric motors, 2 shafts, 35,742 shp / 26,664 KW = 28.00 kts
Range: 10,000nm at 17.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement: 1,615 tons

Complement: 276 - 359

Cost: $8.266 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement
Armament: 91 tons; 2.0 %, Armor: 579 tons; 12.7 %, Belts: 272 tons; 6.0 %, Armament: 103 tons; 2.3 %, Armor Deck: 192 tons; 4.2 %, Combat Information Center: 12 tons; 0.3 %, Machinery: 855 tons; 18.8 %, Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,493 tons; 32.8 %, Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,233 tons; 27.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 296 tons, 6.5 % Hull above water (depth charges): 46 tons, On freeboard deck: 50 tons, Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 7,771 lbs / 3,525 Kg = 124.3 x 5.0" / 127 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics
Hull has a flush deck, a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.442 / 0.461
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
Forecastle: 20.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Aft deck: 35.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Average freeboard: 16.48 ft / 5.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.0 %
Waterplane Area: 12,676 Square feet
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 159 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft
Hull strength (Relative)
Cross-sectional: 0.93
Longitudinal: 2.08
Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentalization is excellent
Room for accommodation and work spaces is excellent


Comments?


Mike Garrity

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Post by Marko Dash » 2008-06-24 10:44pm

we need a little snippet, if only so we can call it chapter 66.6 :P
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Post by JBG » 2008-06-24 11:21pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
JBG wrote:
As for Ceasar taking control, Brovane is right. He may keep his networks but when the US and the Russians et al decide that he is in the way, he is outa there. 2 million armed with sticks and rocks do not compete with those who have trashed Satan's palace etc etc ... You get my drift.
Caesar is the 'legitimate' ruler of 2 million people in hell, civilian or otherwise, and given that the defeat of hellish forces is more or less forgone, its now a political issue not a military one. Caesar has established legitimacy as a ruler, the US et al are going to have to deal with that, if for no other reason that people in hell, including the native Orc, will inevitably question the right of earth to rule in hell if for no other reason that its not their 'country'.
Why is Ceasar the "legitimate" ruler of free hell? Up to now he has been the co-ordinator etc of forces in hell that have achieved diddly-squat for millenia. Is it because historically he is a nuanced and charismatic leader? That goes just so far as he himself has had no solution to demon dominance. Imagine what his people would say given the chance of hitting back at the demons with modern technology or going back to hiding in caves and swamps awaiting the "day".

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-06-25 12:49am

Michael Garrity wrote:Duchess:

There is no specific hull design new or recent that I used as a template for this vessel. Instead, I used Springsharp to design an armed merchant vessel. When I read your posts about various vessels with lots of autocannons and HMGs, I modified the design by trading most of the cargo capacity for increased armament and a different hullform.
I will reduce the armor as you suggest. I will reduce the main belt to 2" and the upper belt to 1.5"; this will represent thickened hull plating. I'll keep the main deck at 1" and the conning tower at 2" (the CT plating will represent armor on and around the CIC) for splinter protection and also reduce the armor on the three main turrets.
As for the other types of guns you mention, what is the caliber of the 127-mm OtoMelara weapon? The 40-mm guns on the sides of the vessel were surplus Bofors; I will change the 40-mm caliber to L70 and reduce the main guns to single mounts. Unfortunately, Springsharp doesn't allow for the specification of gatling-type weaponry.
I will also experiment with mounting depth charge racks on the stern; how many racks & DC's do you recommend I add?

Mike Garrity

I recommended nothing about armour, because no armour would be fitted--you have to stop thinking like this is 1940, it's not. Also, for mobilization you go with the hulls you already have. Where the fuck are we going to manufacture armour plate for ships, exactly? That's ridiculous. We're going to build the easiest hulls we already have, the hulls for the ships most recently in production, Perry's, Burkes, LCS types, limited mods to the Cyclones, the USCG Legend class, because they're here, they're simple, we still have the plans for them, we know what the hell we're dealing with. Why are you trying to go through the complex process of designing an entirely new ship when mass production demands we use what we've got on the shelf and shoehorn it to the best of our ability to fit hte situation, accepting less efficiency in design and capability so we can start churning out dozens--last week.
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Post by R011 » 2008-06-25 12:54am

JBG wrote:
Why is Ceasar the "legitimate" ruler of free hell?

Jonathan
Because the US and UK governments have just given him de facto recognition as the local indigenous political leader. Now, higher authorities from those governments can withdraw that recognition, but by the time they do, Caesar's claim will be solidified enough that it will be much more trouble than its worth. Not to mention that the US probably doesn't much want to deploy a brigade to Free Hell in order to take control from the British
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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2008-06-25 01:22am

JBG wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
JBG wrote:
As for Ceasar taking control, Brovane is right. He may keep his networks but when the US and the Russians et al decide that he is in the way, he is outa there. 2 million armed with sticks and rocks do not compete with those who have trashed Satan's palace etc etc ... You get my drift.
Caesar is the 'legitimate' ruler of 2 million people in hell, civilian or otherwise, and given that the defeat of hellish forces is more or less forgone, its now a political issue not a military one. Caesar has established legitimacy as a ruler, the US et al are going to have to deal with that, if for no other reason that people in hell, including the native Orc, will inevitably question the right of earth to rule in hell if for no other reason that its not their 'country'.
Why is Ceasar the "legitimate" ruler of free hell?
I did not say he was.
Up to now he has been the co-ordinator etc of forces in hell that have achieved diddly-squat for millenia. Is it because historically he is a nuanced and charismatic leader?
No, its because he is responsible for over 2 million people.
That goes just so far as he himself has had no solution to demon dominance. Imagine what his people would say given the chance of hitting back at the demons with modern technology or going back to hiding in caves and swamps awaiting the "day".

Jonathan
That does not follow, indeed its irrelevant. GJC commands/coordinates over two million persons, that is legitimacy by virtue of millennia of incumbency. But more to the point who the fuck gave the US or any other sonofabitch the right to run hell over the wishes of the people who live there and cannot leave?
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Post by JBG » 2008-06-25 02:08am

"I did not say he was. "

I am going on what you have posted. If you don't mean "X" you shouldn't state "X". I quoted your statement that he was the "legitimate" ruler. Look at your own post before you criticise others or try to recreate history.

You further have yet to explain how he is responsible. What does "responsible" in your universe entail?? You keep on coming out with these bland statements yet when challenged you accept no ownership - see "legitimate" above.

Its a case of "sorry squire, I have scratched the record".

And no offence intended, as my Kiwi mate would put it.

Jonathan

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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2008-06-25 02:29am

JBG wrote:"I did not say he was. "

I am going on what you have posted. If you don't mean "X" you shouldn't state "X". I quoted your statement that he was the "legitimate" ruler. Look at your own post before you criticise others or try to recreate history.
Show me where I said GJC was running the patch of dirt known as "Free Hell" or admit you just lied . Cause I just looked back and I said no such thing.
You further have yet to explain how he is responsible. What does "responsible" in your universe entail?? You keep on coming out with these bland statements yet when challenged you accept no ownership - see "legitimate" above.
Oh, I am sorry, you must have missed the chapter where he told Kim that he commanded over two million people.
Its a case of "sorry squire, I have scratched the record".

And no offence intended, as my Kiwi mate would put it.

Jonathan
Fuck off, wanker.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-06-25 09:59am

JBG wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Caesar is the 'legitimate' ruler of 2 million people in hell ...
Why is Ceasar the "legitimate" ruler of free hell?
Methinks someone has a reading comprehension problem. The statement and your response to it did not match.

In any case, this is a COALITION, and this Colonel undoubtedly realizes that in the absence of instructions to the contrary, human factions are all assumed to be on the same side. Caesar is the leader of a large human faction. Ergo, he should be considered part of the human coalition. Ergo, other coalition members are expected to work with him.
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Post by R011 » 2008-06-25 10:53am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
I recommended nothing about armour, because no armour would be fitted-
He did say that the belt armour, at any rate, was to simulate strengthened hull plating rather than armour per se.
you have to stop thinking like this is 1940, it's not.
Actually, so far as the program he using is concerned, it's 1950. If you know of a program that simulates modern ships, please let us know.
Also, for mobilization you go with the hulls you already have.


It took this as illustrative rather than definitive. No doubt if SpringSharp had an option to take a Meko or Stanflex and add stuff, he'd have done it. Incidentally, that modifying current production ships would be easier than starting from scratch is an assumption on our part that may not be entirely warranted. It seems right, but I don't think anyone here does this for a living and designing a new hull around the systems we want might be trivial so long as we aren't pushing the envelope.
Why are you trying to go through the complex process of designing an entirely new ship
Because it's fun? It's no more unrealistic or invalid than taking existing ships and sticking on WWII guns as if it were just a plastic model kit. In real life (do recall that this is just a story), such mods would take real naval architects working with real ships a lot more work.
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Post by Stuart » 2008-06-25 12:43pm

Chiknathragothem’s Command Post, Southern Front, Phlegethon River

The harpy landed, its wings shaking with exhaustion. “Sire, I bring much terrible news.”

“Speak.” Chiknathragothem didn’t have time to worry about the usual genuflections.

“My Lord, the humans have unleashed magery of unimaginable power. Beelzebub’s Army is stalled, its casualties are beyond counting. He has forced a crossing of the Phlegethon but is unable to make headway into the human defenses. The human mages breathed death over his forces, their spells robbing his harpies of the breath from their bodies, of the very air from their lungs. His harpies died as one, nothing like it has every been seen before.”

“That could well describe our whole war with these humans.” Chiknathragothem was impatient, he had better things to do than listen to a litany of disaster, even if opportunities lay in them. “Tell me something I have not heard before.”

The harpy gulped but he had been tasked to deliver a message and deliver it he would. “The humans also delivered a huge number of mage-bolts, so many that they blended together into one huge cloud of death that drank Beelzebub’s army. Together, barely one demon in four survives of his force. He has abandoned his attack and is pulling back in defense to block the road to Dis. He charges you with penetrating the human defenses and crushing them against that defense.”

“Is that all.” Chiknathragothem’s voice clearly indicated that he was contemplating a quick meal.

“No Sire, the worst is still to come. The humans hit the city of Dis itself. They have destroyed His Infernal Majesty’s palace, crumbled in and the rock it stood on so that only a pile of sand and ruins remains.”

“His Majesty…” Chiknathragothem had gone gray with shock. “Did he survive?”

“Nobody knows Sire. If he was in his palace then he did not. More than forty Grand Dukes and Dukes are known to be dead, and the palace staff are all gone. The dead number in their thousands. And, My Lord Beelzebub says, if Yahweh gets to hear of this catastrophe, and he will, then there will be nothing to keep him out of Hell itself.”

Shocked to his core, Chiknathragothem stared into the distance, trying to imagine the full consequences of what had just happened. If Satan was dead, then the great bulwark against Yahweh absorbing Hell into his own domain had gone. There was more to it than that, the human life-energy that all demons gathered and paid as tribute to Satan was suddenly without purpose. Satan had used it to boost his faithful servants over the barrier that existed between this level and the next. That was, after all, what the great pit of Hell was all about. The demons served Satan and in exchange he used the life-energy he had gathered to save them for eternity in the next dimension. All of this would be lost if Yahweh was allowed to make his way in and seize Hell for his own. The celestial abode that had been split apart so many, many millennia ago, would be reunited once more.

Unless, Chiknathragothem suddenly realized, another took over the role of leader, seized power and used the system Satan had devised to guarantee his own survival. In a flash of inspiration, he suddenly realized why Beelzebub was abandoning this fight, he wasn’t blocking the humans from Dis, he was advancing along that road himself, to seize power and take Satan’s throne. He, Chiknathragothem, was being left as the rear-guard to distract the humans from pursuing Beelzebub. He was a sacrifice to Beelzebub’s ambition.

For a wild moment, Chiknathragothem thought of pulling back himself, of setting out for Dis in an attempt to beat Beelzebub to the punch. Reality quickly intruded itself and squashed that idea. Beelzebub’s Army blocked the direct road and was much closer to Dis than Chiknathragothem’s. Beelzebub had the direct route, Chiknathragothem would have to go around him. There was no way, no way at all, that Beelzebub could be beaten to Dis. Then, another thought entered Chiknathragothem’s mind. He had battered his way through most of the human defenses, the end of the great zone of little fortresses that could do so much damage was in sight. One more push, one more effort and he would be through. Then, the human army would collapse. Beelzebub might enter Dis first, but it would be at the head of a defeated army, a thin shadow of the great force that he had once commanded. On the other hand, once this battle was one, he, Chiknathragothem, could also enter Dis but at the head of a victorious army, one that had defeated the humans who had destroyed Abigor and so badly crippled Beelzebub. The inhabitants of Hell were practical, they would back a winner over a loser any time.

So, he had to win and had to win fast. That made his decision obvious. He would have to group his remaining forces here, at the point where victory was on the point of being won. The remaining naga, the remnants of Belial’s wyverns, all in a concentrated blow. Overhead, Chiknathragothem heard the wailing sound of the human sky-chariots as they tore into his dwindling flock of harpies. His army was mauled, badly mauled, but nothing like the scale of destruction that had been visited on Beelzebub. The white mage-fire had been a shock, more for the horror of its effects than its real damage, but that was all. And there were fewer sky-chariots than there had been. His advancing foot-soldiers had found the wreckage of two, brought down by the wyverns with their great spiked tails, but it seemed as if the humans were running out of them. Everything suggested that this battle was at the point of balance. His one more push would win it, and with it a far greater prize than was being contested here on the plains of the Phlegethon.

Command Cave, Free Hell, Banks of the Styx, Fifth Circle of Hell

“Estimated force of 35,000 baldricks, at least 30,000 foot, the rest harpies. They’re the dangerous ones, not much firepower but they can get at us and our ability to bring them down in droves is limited.” Colonel Jackson looked around at his companions. He’d had an embarrassing discussion over the radio with his commander when he’d had to admit that he’d been outmaneuvered, politically speaking of course. In retrospect, he couldn’t honestly critique his decisions. He’d had a very questionable maneuver to pull off, one that depended on a junior officer’s instinctive deference to an officer of much higher rank. He’d gone in hard, trying to bulldoze her out of the way and accept his command before she had time to think the situation through. It had worked too, only how could he have known he would run into Gaius Julius Caesar. Some historians had questioned Caesar’s skill as a politician, well, he had been on the receiving end of that expertise and could now testify that the reality of the man lived up to his reputation.

The infuriating thing was that he, Jackson, had been right and what he was seeing proved it. The young American Lieutenant had done well, that was certain enough, but she’d done it through luck, guts, the inability of the baldricks to accept that humans could fight and, most of all, her serene ignorance of the fact that what she was attempting was impossible. Her whole operation was running on borrowed time, if this crisis hadn’t arrived, something else would have done. Time to rub that in a little.

“So, how many troops do you have Lieutenant?”

“Armed with our weapons? Around thirty. Split equally between the two flanks. About sixty more with captured baldrick equipment, some reinforcing the positions on either flank, the rest string out along the river.” Jackson and Caesar exchanged glances, the Lieutenant was a pilot, not a ground-pounder and her dispositions had made that fact clear. They were an invitation to disaster. “I know, I know, but we’ve got some things running for us. The whole area on these flanks is a maze of minefields and demolition charges. Ever since we blew up Asmodeus, we’ve got the baldricks too scared to put their feet on the ground. Just often enough, when one of them does so, it kills them. The river is wide open, I know it, but we can’t be strong everywhere. He who tries to defend everything….”

“Defends nothing. Quite right Jade.” Caesar looked at the map, probably the first accurate one that had ever been drawn in Hell. “Colonel, you’re the expert, I’m just the representative of the free human population down here, what do you recommend?”

Jackson caught the fleeting smirk on Kim’s face and guessed that Caesar had been given a quick introductory lesson on the concept of civilian control of the military. And was now using it to his advantage. Oh, it was to his own advantage, Jackson knew that, Gaius Julius Caesar was up to something. That insight came from the simple appreciation that Gaius Julius Caesar was always up to something, the only real question was, what? Jackson was highly doubtful that the man’s ambitions were restricted to a few square kilometers of mud on the banks of the Styx. Still, that matter could wait until later. As could the command issues that this whole little skirmish had highlighted. He had no doubt they were being discussed at a much higher level than his.

“We must assume the force moving along the river is our first priority. I’ll string my battalion out along that front, its thin coverage but with down here with modern weapons, we can hold much longer fronts than in normal wars. I’ll have to depend on your people to hold our flanks Kim. But frankly, if the baldricks hit us with a coordinated attack, both flanks and the river, we’re gone. There is no possibility of us stopping an attack like that.”

Caesar got up and stared across at the great cloud of dust that hung over the site of Satan’s palace. “Well, we’ll have to make sure that doesn’t happen, won’t we?”

Palace of Deumos, City of Dis, Hell

Deumos stood on her balcony, looking at the same great cloud of dust. For weeks she had been struggling with the problem of what to do and where to cast her allegiance. At first, she had been swayed by her vassal Lugasharmanaska’s opinion that humans could not lose. She had seen them invade Hell, seen their columns first make the Martial Plain of Dysprosium untenable to the demons and then bring it under their sway. Then they had started to build up their defense along the Phlegethon and Deumos had been on the verge of casting her lot irrevocably in with them. Then, had come news of Belial’s success at Sheffield and she had hastily reconsidered, to make a firm decision might yet be premature. Dee-Troyt had confirmed that, or so she had thought.

Now the humans had struck at the very heart of Hell, they had utterly destroyed Satan’s palace. And, presumably, Satan himself. That meant the great ruling force that dominated Hell had gone. As soon as Yahweh found out about that, he would be on the move, trying to reclaim the lands that had been torn from him at the end of the Great Celestial War. Deumos didn’t have to have explained to her what that would mean for her and her kind. Succubi were despised in Hell but reviled in heaven. Yahweh’s return meant death for her and her vassals. Hell had to have a new leader, and quickly.

That led to the obvious question, who. Like any baldrick, Deumos had a simple answer to that, her. The question was, how. Once again, the simple fact that Succubi were despised in Hell stood in her way. To make her own power hold, she had to have powerful allies. Which Grand Duke would be willing to ally with her. Despised or not, her Succubi were powerful allies who could offer much intelligence and influence to the right duke. But who? Deumos realized she didn’t even know which Dukes were still alive.

Then, that thought made her kick herself. She had missed the obvious. The Dukes were not the most powerful forces in hell any more. Humans were. The destruction of Satan’s palace proved that. She went to the couch in the corner of her room and sat down, her mind already roving across the gray expanse that marked some sort of dimension she could not describe or explain. There were bright lights in that expanse, the minds of her Succubi. Without being able to explain why, she knew which light belonged to who. She was looking for one light in particular, one that would be far removed from the rest.

Luga, child are you there? Deumos’s mind had the sickly-sweet sound of an adult cooing to a child

Yes, my liege. How may I serve you.

Deumos was momentarily irritated, she expected a lot more groveling than that. Obviously too long an association with humans was having a bad effect on her. Still, punishing her for that could wait. Child, what is the situation on Earth? Are the humans in despair at the loss of their cities?

No, my Liege. Not in despair. Furiously angry would be the best description. There have been riots in the streets here, people demanding that the destruction of Sheffield and Detroit be avenged by the ‘nuking’ of all hell. I do not understand what they meant by nuking but it does not sound friendly. You must have seen the action the humans have taken in response.

There were riots caused by our action? The humans massacred their own then.

No, my liege. The police and Volunteers restored order and they arrested those who caused acts of violence but the rest were allowed to demonstrate. It is their way. It was helped by the news that the volcano over Sheffield has finally stopped and the Detroit attack is slackening quickly. Otherwise, the demands for a nuking might not have been so easy to ignore.

Luga, child, this war must end before even more die. I would wish to speak with the leaders of the humans. Perhaps together we can find a solution to this horror.”


Lugasharmanaska’s mind-voice betrayed her suspicion. Another thing for which Deumos decided that she would have to pay later. My Liege, I can arrange such a meeting but I must counsel caution. The humans are in an uncompromising mood and will not listen to much in the way of appeasement. The leaders here speak of unconditional surrender when they think of the future of Hell. They will not settle for less than that. If you wish to have influence with them, then you must offer them a way to achieve that.

The impertinence of the comment ground further at Deumos’s nerves. How dare this minor vassal give her such advice? She would, Deumos decided, spend many, many years screaming in agony for such impudence. If she liked humans so much, perhaps tossing her into a boiling lava pit with them might be suitable. Your wise advice comforts me child. I will think on this. But arrange for me to meet the leaders with whom you deal and I will see what agreements we can make.

Deumos closed the contact and relaxed. Now, how could she bring enough Dukes into her orbit to make her an ally the humans would value?

Conference Room, White House Washington DC.

“Mister President, the supplemental funding is through. I just hope we can survive the peace when the war ends.”

“That may be a long time. What’s the progress in production.”

“It’s picking up, but we’re still expending munitions a lot faster than we can make them. We’re running low, the projections are that we’ll bottom out before we are completely expended but it’s going to be close. It’s lucky the Russians are carrying the load in the latest battle and that they can use a lot of Chinese stuff. Otherwise we would be really hurting right now.

“Army’s doing OK, we’ve recommissioned most of the Abrams and Bradleys we had in storage and we’re working on the M113s right now. Light note Sir, we had some idiot called Sparks turning up and demanding we name the M113 the Gavin and build our forces around them. Anyway, we drafted him and sent him to Alaska. Apparently there’s a shortage of latrines up there and he’d digging the new ones. Anyway, as fast as we get the vehicles, we’re building up new units around them. The veterans from the battles against Abigor are worth their weight in gold as cadre for the new divisions.

“Air Force, well, we’re desperately short of heavy bombers and it’ll be months before we get more. Northrop are working on a simplified B-2, they’re stripping out all the stealth stuff and that cuts cost and production time drastically. Boeing are doing the same with the B-1, they’re using the B-1A as a base, not the dash 1B. Northrop say they’ll have a prototype B-2B up by the end of the year, Boeing a B-1C at the same time.

“F-22 and F-15E production is ramping up fast, F-16 more slowly. F-18s are doing pretty well and the first A-45s are coming off the lines. They’ll be going to the Navy for the carriers. The navy’s rebuilding some of its discarded ships, mostly Spru-Cans and Fig-sevens. Gas turbine ships we can bring back, the steam turbine ones are gone. It’ll be years before the Navy gets a lot of new construction though, we just don’t have the shipbuilding base we used to.”

“Any other problems we have to deal with John?”

“One big one Sir. Command. We’ve done pretty well so far but the command of the forces deployed is a mess. It’s just been thrown together as the forces arrived and the situation had been moving faster than we can get things tidied up. We’ve only got away with it this long because the guys at the top back there are professionals and are making it work. But, we had a minor fracas with the British yesterday.”

“Not another friendly fire incident?”

“No, although we’ve had all too many of those. Our lodgment in Hell is about to come under attack and the British sent reinforcements. Their commander wanted operational control, which was quite reasonable of course, but there were some disagreements on that and a local deceased human took over. One Gaius Julius Caesar.”

“I’ve heard of him.” Bush’s voice was reflective.

I should hope so thought Secretary Warner. “Anyway, its all sorted out and it never really amounted to much but it’s a warning. We’ve got to get a permanent, proper, flexible and fast-reacting command structure sorted out. Otherwise, one day we’re going to have a real problem that’ll get people killed. A lot of them.

“Two final things. One is that the kiddies on Kos are claiming you and Halliburton conspired to get this war started so you could make money on the share prices.”

“Good idea, I wish we’d thought of it.”

“Quite Sir. The other is our contact with the Succubi in Hell has said that Deumos, the Succubi Leader has asked for a meeting, she wants to come over to our side.”

“Aren’t we grooming Abigor as our ruler down there?”

“We are Sir, but the faster we can bring about the collapse of hell the better. We’ve still got Heaven to deal with, they’re quiet at the moment but how long they’ll stay that way is another matter. If this Deumos creature comes over to us, it might split hell up and bring them down. That’s why we whacked Satan after all.”

“Any word on that?”

“No, Mister President. Pictures show the whole palace and its foundation rock are gone, blasted to dust. But we still have no confirmation that he was in there. Abigor says he spends nearly all his time in that Palace so its pretty good odds we got him.”

“Hope so. Anyway, thank you John. Condi, do you have any thoughts on this command issue?”
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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-06-25 01:00pm

Oh, Sparks. Hope you like the cold! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Darmalus » 2008-06-25 01:10pm

Deumos seems to be having a bit of trouble wrapping her mind around how fundamental the changes in hell are. Can't say I blame her, however. The politics are shaping up to be very interesting down there, almost as good as the battles.

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