WH:40k space marine question

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Lord Revan
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WH:40k space marine question

Post by Lord Revan » 2008-05-26 07:37am

ok what was the specialation of the orginal space marine legions (pre-heresy ofc (and excluding the 2 unknown/lost legions))?
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Post by loomer » 2008-05-26 07:57am

Kill, maim, burn, in the Emperor's Name, basically. Same deal. Oh, and go bring worlds back into the Imperium. They existed to serve the Emperor in situations normal men would find extremely difficult at best.
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Post by Lazarus » 2008-05-26 09:36am

I think he means specialisation, in which case not all chapters had a 'thing' but many did.

Iron Warriors: Siege specialists
White Scars: Blitzkrieg
Imperial Fists: Defensive specialists
Blood Angels: Close Quarters Combat
Iron Hands: High-tech warfare
Raven Guard: Hit and run
Night Lords: Psychological warfare and hit + run
World Eaters: Close Quarters now, not sure if they always were
Thousand Sons: May have had an emphasis on Psyker use, certainly do now
Alpha Legion: Special ops, infiltration etc
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Post by [R_H] » 2008-05-26 10:05am

Lazarus wrote:I think he means specialisation, in which case not all chapters had a 'thing' but many did.

Iron Warriors: Siege specialists
White Scars: Blitzkrieg
Imperial Fists: Defensive specialists
Blood Angels: Close Quarters Combat
Iron Hands: High-tech warfare
Raven Guard: Hit and run
Night Lords: Psychological warfare and hit + run
World Eaters: Close Quarters now, not sure if they always were
Thousand Sons: May have had an emphasis on Psyker use, certainly do now
Alpha Legion: Special ops, infiltration etc
World Eaters were CQ even in the days of the Horus Heresy. Bolt pistols and chainaxes were/are their favorite weapons.

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Post by Maxentius » 2008-05-26 10:59am

I'm not sure if any sources depict the Blood Angels as close combat specialists prior to the Heresy, but the Black Rage only began to manifest itself in the gene seed after the death of Sanguinius.

The Imperial Fists are also siege specialists, like the Iron Warriors. I can vaguely recall a mention of one being superior than the other when being on the offensive, and vice versa, but I cannot recall where I saw it, nor which Chapter was which. So I could be dreaming it up.
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Post by starfury » 2008-05-26 12:28pm

The Imperial Fists are also siege specialists, like the Iron Warriors. I can vaguely recall a mention of one being superior than the other when being on the offensive, and vice versa, but I cannot recall where I saw it, nor which Chapter was which. So I could be dreaming it up.
Actually I think many of the Loyalist and Traitor legions tend to have counterparts which during the Pre-hersey Days would have lead to thembeing competitive Rivals. The World Eaters and Blood Angels being so similarly themed as well.

and The Luna wolves and Ultramarines being the Generalists, the others I can't as exact as a comparsions
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Post by Block » 2008-05-26 01:50pm

So if the Blood Angels are close combat specialists, what about the Wolves of Fenris? Don't they get bonuses in hand to hand as well?

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Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-05-26 02:05pm

It's probably worth pointing out that these roles are areas of expertise, not specialisation; The Imperial Fists, for example, would have been perfectly capable of undertaking an armoured blitzkrieg attack, while the World Eaters and Space Wolves had no shortage of artillery support (IIRC, the Space Wolves invented the Predator Destructor and the Vindicator siege tank)
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Post by Block » 2008-05-26 02:22pm

This is true, but again, as far as I remember from the fluff, the Space Wolves are considered the definitive assault/cqb force in the Imperium, thus my question.

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Post by Ayrix » 2008-05-26 02:41pm

This is true, but again, as far as I remember from the fluff, the Space Wolves are considered the definitive assault/cqb force in the Imperium, thus my question.

Space Wolves are just....Space Wolves. They're their own thing. Quite an awesome thing at that.

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Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-05-26 08:31pm

Yeah, the Space Wolves are odd. In the 'present', IIRC Ragnar Blackmane's company is known for it's ability at orbital insertion operations, for example, but that's only his own Great Company.

In the Heresy, the World Eaters may have been their equal or better in all-out savagery, although the Space Wolves may have had the edge in independent small-unit actions.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-05-26 08:36pm

Maxentius wrote:
The Imperial Fists are also siege specialists, like the Iron Warriors. I can vaguely recall a mention of one being superior than the other when being on the offensive, and vice versa, but I cannot recall where I saw it, nor which Chapter was which. So I could be dreaming it up.
Iron Warriors are seige breakers, while Imperial Fists are masters of fortifications.

IIRC, it was the Fists' mastery of assembling an unbreakable defense that was what allowed them to hold the Imperial Palace for so long against Horus' sheer numbers.
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Post by loomer » 2008-05-26 11:01pm

Space Wolves have always been the guys who you call on to do basically anything, as well as the expert night fighters, berserk raiders (13th Company, and all), Chaos fighters, and the best damn mead drinkers in the galaxy.
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Post by Adrian Laguna » 2008-05-26 11:48pm

The Alpha Legion's specialization is more than special ops and infiltration, they are also experts at guerilla and asymmetrical warfare, as well as psychological warfare. Their modus operandi is basically to weaken the enemy indirectly through sneaky stuff, then attack the demoralized enemy at a weak point and watch them collapse like a house of cards. In a way they are good followers of Sun Tzu, focusing on fighting only battles that they have already won.

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-05-27 11:19am

I thought the Space Wolves, although not overly specialized, were known as being experts at assaulting planets and positions from orbit in keeping with their "Viking Raider" motif.
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Post by [R_H] » 2008-06-02 08:25am

Sorry to revive this thread, but I didn't think my two questions about Space Marines warranted a new thread being created.

Firstly, can ogryn become Space Marines, and secondly, are Space Marines commonly viewed as "abhuman" (Faith and Fire, Chapter 1)?

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Post by Teleros » 2008-06-02 08:30am

[R_H] wrote:Firstly, can ogryn become Space Marines, and secondly, are Space Marines commonly viewed as "abhuman" (Faith and Fire, Chapter 1)?
I've never heard of Ogryns becoming space marines or even being considered for them. Although in terms of physical strength it'd be a great improvement I'm sure, Ogryns are typically not shown as being particularly smart. Genetic changes since Ogryns split from ordinary humans may also make it hard / impossible.

As for the views of Space Marines, from what I've seen they tend to be seen as superhuman rather than abhuman etc. Whilst there probably are some Imperial officials and the like who see them differently, most people seem to view them as half-mythic supermen.

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Post by loomer » 2008-06-02 08:31am

There is no known reason an Ogryn could not become a Space Marine except for dogma and the possibility of their genetic mutations interfering with the process.

Space Marines are, to my knowledge, commonly seen as 'abhuman' only in that they are essentially the perfection of human endurance, strength, and martial skill.
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Post by PainRack » 2008-06-02 09:13am

Here's another question.

How long does it take for the apothecaries to "regrow" new organs from existing gene-seeds? Its been mentioned that the loss of geneseed from existing battle brothers could cripple the Chapter if not recovered, but it seems odd to me since the rigourous training and rejection rates surely mean that one geneseed could grow multiple organs, right?
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Post by Commander 598 » 2008-06-02 10:16am

loomer wrote:There is no known reason an Ogryn could not become a Space Marine except for dogma and the possibility of their genetic mutations interfering with the process.

Space Marines are, to my knowledge, commonly seen as 'abhuman' only in that they are essentially the perfection of human endurance, strength, and martial skill.
Genetic mutations are kind of major. Just being older than other recruits could result in you ending up with extra appendages. I think in the DoW novel(s) the Blood Ravens take some of the Guardsmen from the planet in the first DoW and one of them ends up with a tentacle for an arm/hand.

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-06-02 12:57pm

PainRack wrote:Here's another question.

How long does it take for the apothecaries to "regrow" new organs from existing gene-seeds? Its been mentioned that the loss of geneseed from existing battle brothers could cripple the Chapter if not recovered, but it seems odd to me since the rigourous training and rejection rates surely mean that one geneseed could grow multiple organs, right?
Each person implanted eventually develops two progenoid organs, which can be harvested for a complete geneseed. These are done so when a marine is of a sufficient age for a progenoid to be fully mature or he is killed in battle. Each progenoid provides a complete geneseed for one person (although not the chemical conditioning, the hypnotraining or the rest of it). So each marine will yield geneseed for two more marines.

In addition, so will most of the failures among the ranks of the chapter serfs. All chapters tithe 5% of their geneseed to Mars, where the Adeptus Mechanicus just implant the progenoid part of the geneseed in surgically crippled bodies and grow more geneseed for use in creating new chapters or rebuilding shattered ones.
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Post by [R_H] » 2008-06-02 01:50pm

Commander 598 wrote:
loomer wrote:There is no known reason an Ogryn could not become a Space Marine except for dogma and the possibility of their genetic mutations interfering with the process.

Space Marines are, to my knowledge, commonly seen as 'abhuman' only in that they are essentially the perfection of human endurance, strength, and martial skill.
Genetic mutations are kind of major. Just being older than other recruits could result in you ending up with extra appendages. I think in the DoW novel(s) the Blood Ravens take some of the Guardsmen from the planet in the first DoW and one of them ends up with a tentacle for an arm/hand.
Wow. Wonder what kinds of mutations an ogryn would under go (if it's not just outright killed by the implantation).
Imperial Overlord wrote: Each person implanted eventually develops two progenoid organs, which can be harvested for a complete geneseed. These are done so when a marine is of a sufficient age for a progenoid to be fully mature or he is killed in battle. Each progenoid provides a complete geneseed for one person (although not the chemical conditioning, the hypnotraining or the rest of it). So each marine will yield geneseed for two more marines.

In addition, so will most of the failures among the ranks of the chapter serfs. All chapters tithe 5% of their geneseed to Mars, where the Adeptus Mechanicus just implant the progenoid part of the geneseed in surgically crippled bodies and grow more geneseed for use in creating new chapters or rebuilding shattered ones.
Once the second progenoid is harvested, does another regrow to take its place. If one regrows, how long does it take to do so?

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-06-02 02:03pm

R_H wrote: Once the second progenoid is harvested, does another regrow to take its place. If one regrows, how long does it take to do so?
As far as I know, a marine is only good for two. Thus geneseed is precious (Marines easily live for centurites, so even if they produced one every fifty years they would have a small hoard from their veterans alone) and severe losses devastating.
Last edited by Imperial Overlord on 2008-06-02 03:07pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-06-02 02:56pm

In theory, I suppose Ogryns could become Space Marines. However, the geneseed would probably need extensive redesigning (the reason you don't get female Marines, for instance, is that the implants are tailored for human male hormones during puberty). That seems a little outside the willingness if not the capability of the Mechanicus.

Plus, Ogryns are likely too stupid. The BONEhead treatment, to raise Ogryn intelligence isn't foolproof, and it's risky, which is why usually only sergeants get it.

Old Rogue Trader fluff had a Half-Eldar as Ultramarines chief Librarian, and allowed for the possibility of Navigator Space Marines (the Space Wolves were specifically listed with one, IIRC). Times change, though. :)
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Post by [R_H] » 2008-06-02 03:52pm

andrewgpaul wrote:In theory, I suppose Ogryns could become Space Marines. However, the geneseed would probably need extensive redesigning (the reason you don't get female Marines, for instance, is that the implants are tailored for human male hormones during puberty). That seems a little outside the willingness if not the capability of the Mechanicus.

Plus, Ogryns are likely too stupid. The BONEhead treatment, to raise Ogryn intelligence isn't foolproof, and it's risky, which is why usually only sergeants get it.

Old Rogue Trader fluff had a Half-Eldar as Ultramarines chief Librarian, and allowed for the possibility of Navigator Space Marines (the Space Wolves were specifically listed with one, IIRC). Times change, though. :)
Are ogryn a tiny minority of the Imperium's population? Would make sense not to bother with tailoring geneseed for them if ogryn aren't that common, and as you said too stupid. How do ogryn compare in strength to SMs and Orks?

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