Red Army, for Sanchez (from N&P)

OT: anything goes!

Moderator: Edi

Post Reply
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Red Army, for Sanchez (from N&P)

Post by K. A. Pital »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:
brianeyci wrote:In a disciplined army the officers are incredibly loyal to the state and its ideals. I'm thinking of Berlin, where political commisars went around shooting rapists and looters on Stalin's orders.
I know this is off topic, but you're not seriously calling the Red Army disciplined and loyal to Communism, are you? The shooting of looters and rapists came only after six+ months of rape, murder, and pillaging across eastern Europe to Berlin, when Stalin realized that he needed the Poles and the Germans as a buffer against the West, and that raping a country's women isn't the best way to win them over as friends. Bad, bad example.
Stas Bush wrote:
I know this is off topic
So do I, but:
O.A. Rzheshevsky wrote:As the materials of the Military Prosecution show, in the first months of 1945, for cruelty against the civilian population military tribunals sentenced 4148 officers and a great number of privates. Some trials resulted in death sentences.
Are you seriously thinking court-marshalling thousands of people only started in what, 1946? :roll: Yeah.

If you seriously don't understand the effect of allowance and zero punishment, and think it can last for 6 months long, look no further than the Nazi own invasion. Just as soon as the population understood that Nazi soldiers have a carte blanche to rape, loot and exterminate, a partisan movement was formed. It took but two months to set it up, and half-a-year saw the movement rise and become widespread in all of occupied territory.

No such massive events happened in Eastern Europe. 6 months would've been enough for Germany to become a partisan deathtrap.
SancheztheWhaler wrote:Ahh... a Russian denying that the Red Army raped and pillaged its way across Eastern Europe... how quaint. In any case, if you'd like to continue this conversation let's start a thread in Off Topic, rather than hijacking this one.
Denying? :roll: So those thousands of officers and soldiers were court-marshalled why? If I were to deny the rapes, I'd hardly speak of punishing people for it, right? :roll: Knock your strawman down somewhere else.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Post by Big Phil »

The tone of your email suggests that the Red Army's position throughout the 1944/1945 campaign was that rapists and looters are shot on sight. If you're not saying that, please correct me. I should probably clarify that I'm not claiming that the court-martials only began in 1946, but that between 1944 and mid-1945, the Red Army, for whatever reason (I'll suggest two below) did not seriously crack down on rape and looting except in extreme or unusual cases.

The reality of the situation, however, is that several million German, Polish, Hungarian, Czech, and Russian women were raped by Red Army soldiers, but only 4,148 soldiers were tried and convicted for the crimes. That suggests one of two things:

1. The Red Army's (un)official policy was to rape every woman it could find, until the war was nearly over, when the policy changed, or
2. Red Army officers and commissars officially disavowed rape, but turned a blind eye to it to avoid problems with the enlisted men.

With regard to the partisan movement, where would the manpower for that come from? Every able-bodied German male over the age of 12 had been called up to serve in the armed forces, and German women certainly didn't fight. By the time the Red Army crossed the German frontier, German soldiers were divided into hardcore Nazis (or German nationalists) who were willing to fight to the death, and those who just wanted to survive. All but the most resolute knew the war would be over soon, so what would be the point of a partisan movement?

Also, keep in mind that millions of Germans escaped westward toward the British, French, and American forces, and away from the Soviets. I would argue that they didn't form a partisan movement because an alternative was available to them (surrender into humane captivity) that was not available to Soviet citizens in 1941 and 1942. Soviet civilians were treated as brutally by Stalin's regime as they were by the Germans, so retreat (for either soldiers or civilians) wasn't really an option.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

The tone of your email suggests that the Red Army's position throughout the 1944/1945 campaign was that rapists and looters are shot on sight.
The Red Army leadership issued orders to that effect upon seeing the rapes. How well they were executed is another question.
...but that between 1944 and mid-1945, the Red Army, for whatever reason (I'll suggest two below) did not seriously crack down on rape and looting except in extreme or unusual cases.
Yes, I agree. Many low-level commanders have tolerated such events in their units (others have not, and following orders, they executed entire squads of rapists).
The reality of the situation, however, is that several million German, Polish, Hungarian, Czech, and Russian women were raped by Red Army soldiers, but only 4,148 soldiers were tried and convicted for the crimes.
How did one come about the "several million" number? Any decent statistics like for the Holocaust, or just say-so? And not just ~4000 were convicted and tried - that was in early 1945. But post-April 1945 a crackdown on rapists occured. One can wonder again how effective it was, but it's clear that mid-1945 when Germany was surrendering the USSR leadership and high Army ranks did think of stopping the criminal behaviour.
With regard to the partisan movement, where would the manpower for that come from? Every able-bodied German male over the age of 12 had been called up to serve in the armed forces
In Belorussia, every third person was exterminated, and lots of males were drafted into the RKKA, which then fell back with those men. Where did the manpower come from?
Also, keep in mind that millions of Germans escaped westward toward the British, French, and American forces, and away from the Soviets.
Millions remained, however. And note that I didn't just mention Germany alone; the whole of Eastern Europe would have turned an incredible Third World partisan hellhole, with all the war ravage and mistreatment.
Soviet civilians were treated as brutally by Stalin's regime as they were by the Germans, so retreat (for either soldiers or civilians) wasn't really an option.
Oh please. Stalin didn't plan to murder or turn to illiterate slaves the entire citizenry, turn entire cities into lakes once the million-strong population inside has been exterminated, and didn't kill 10% of the country's population in three years.

So there was a difference I guess.

So back to the dilemma - if the rapes were widely common and tolerated by rank commanders despite orders, that's one thing. If you claim "the Red Army raped everyone for half a year", that's another thing alltogether and such would have resulted in massive alienation. Scale matters.

The German Army leadership didn't issue any orders to punish it's soldiers. In fact, it issued orders to the contrary - German Army would be absolved of ANY judicial prosecution for actions against Soviet civilians.

Not quite the same approach, right? Breaking counter-rape orders can be massive, no doubt. But when you give out specific orders to absolve the criminals of responsibility, that just makes the thing ubiqutous.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Post by Big Phil »

Stas, I don't think we're actually disagreeing... on some of the details perhaps, but in principal, no.

My issue was with Brian's assertion that the Red Army was a good example of a loyal and disciplined army; reality would suggest otherwise, at least with regard to rape and looting.

Sources for the several million number:
The Fall of Berlin 1945 - Antony Beevor
Russia's War: Blood upon the Snow - Richard Overy
Remembering Rape: Divided Social Memory and the Red Army in Hungary 1944-1945 - Mark James
The Russians in Germany: A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949 - Norman Naimark
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

My issue was with Brian's assertion that the Red Army was a good example of a loyal and disciplined army
I think he didn't really bring the RKKA 1945 as the example of a disciplined army, otherwise why speak of the retribution and executions? I thought he was evaluating the punitive institutions which shot people for misconduct (actually shooting officers and soldiers who rape as opposed to the "slap on a wrist" approach)... :?
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Post by Big Phil »

Stas Bush wrote:
My issue was with Brian's assertion that the Red Army was a good example of a loyal and disciplined army
I think he didn't really bring the RKKA 1945 as the example of a disciplined army, otherwise why speak of the retribution and executions? I thought he was evaluating the punitive institutions which shot people for misconduct (actually shooting officers and soldiers who rape as opposed to the "slap on a wrist" approach)... :?
That's how I saw it as well; the problem was the Red Army's approach to rape was very bipolar. In some cases rape was dealt with harshly, and in others it was all but encouraged.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

The Japanese prosecuted hundreds of officers and men for the Rape of Naking too; it doesn’t mean it wasn’t a completely unacceptable event. They went after people they could catch for what I’d expect was the same reason Soviet commanders did; even if you don’t care about the rapes its self, the fact that they ever happened represents a breakdown in unit discipline which can have serious consequences in battle.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

I almost didn't notice this.

First of all the context of this post is in regard to officers. Stalin did a purge: am I to believe he didn't replace them with loyalists?

Secondly, the effectiveness of the anti-rape orders has little to do with my original point: at least the Soviets tried, while Halliburton seized the rape kit and denied any wrongdoing whatsoever, with a "boys will be boys" attitude according to the news article. If Halliburton had tried to prosecute as much wrongdoing as possible, but failed due to legal loopholes and the lack of rule of law in Iraq, I would be much more forgiving of the corporation.

I don't have the time or the knowledge to go through history textbooks for statistics for the number of women raped in the occupation. I will say however, that rape is something women keep to themselves, and I have no fucking idea how a scientific method can be devised to measure the number of rapes in a violatile warzone. I will need in-context quotes to believe you, if you really want to convince me, and especially a comparison to the American treatment of German civilians. If you want to convince me that the Soviets were as bad as the Nazis, that is a huge claim, and don't pretend you didn't make it:
Soviet civilians were treated as brutally by Stalin's regime as they were by the Germans, so retreat (for either soldiers or civilians) wasn't really an option.
I was also under the impression that the first few months were incredibly harsh, because of lack of food for the civilians. I do not know if there was a concerted plan to deny civilians food, but one thing's for sure: if I was a woman who needed food, I would consider selling my body for it, especially if I had children. This is not a very good situation obviously: the Soviets should have been responsible for feeding the entire population well. But there is a huge difference between a rape and a trade, which although I find rather disgusting, is many times ethically superior to grevious bodily harm and getting nothing in return.
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Post by Big Phil »

brianeyci wrote:I almost didn't notice this.
This thread wasn't directed at you, that's probably why.
brianeyci wrote:First of all the context of this post is in regard to officers. Stalin did a purge: am I to believe he didn't replace them with loyalists?
Yes and no - I've read widely differing accounts of the purge of the Army, and the motivation behind the purge, but the end result was not an army filled with Stalin loyalists or rabid communists.
brianeyci wrote:Secondly, the effectiveness of the anti-rape orders has little to do with my original point: at least the Soviets tried, while Halliburton seized the rape kit and denied any wrongdoing whatsoever, with a "boys will be boys" attitude according to the news article. If Halliburton had tried to prosecute as much wrongdoing as possible, but failed due to legal loopholes and the lack of rule of law in Iraq, I would be much more forgiving of the corporation.
Halliburton clearly did something horrible here, but the comparison to the Red Army is truly atrocious. When Halliburton employees go on an equivalent rampage of rape, murder, and pillaging throughout Iraq, then we can talk. Until then, a couple of horrible episodes don't make Halliburton the more evil in a comparison of atrocities between itself and the Red Army.
brianeyci wrote:I don't have the time or the knowledge to go through history textbooks for statistics for the number of women raped in the occupation.
Then why the fuck are you even posting here?
brianeyci wrote:I will say however, that rape is something women keep to themselves, and I have no fucking idea how a scientific method can be devised to measure the number of rapes in a violatile warzone.
Refer to the sources I provided.
brianeyci wrote:I will need in-context quotes to believe you, if you really want to convince me,
Why should I waste my time trying to prove to you something that many more illustrious and educated historians agree happened? You clearly aren't interested in listening...
brianeyci wrote:and especially a comparison to the American treatment of German civilians.
What does this have to do with anything? In any case, the fact that Germans preferred to surrender to the Americans and British is widely documented. Do you suppose there could be a reason for this?
brianeyci wrote:if you want to convince me that the Soviets were as bad as the Nazis, that is a huge claim, and don't pretend you didn't make it:
Of course I made it; it's a claim supported by, at a minimum, the four sources listed above, as well as by all of the sources they used in writing their respective books. If you're going to choose to ignore thoroughly researched and sourced books about Red Army atrocities, I'm certainly not going to waste my time trying to convince you.
brianeyci wrote:I was also under the impression that the first few months were incredibly harsh, because of lack of food for the civilians. I do not know if there was a concerted plan to deny civilians food, but one thing's for sure: if I was a woman who needed food, I would consider selling my body for it, especially if I had children. This is not a very good situation obviously: the Soviets should have been responsible for feeding the entire population well. But there is a huge difference between a rape and a trade, which although I find rather disgusting, is many times ethically superior to grevious bodily harm and getting nothing in return.
And that certainly happened as well, but that's not included in the "millions of women raped" that I'm citing above, but I never suggested that women trading sex for food were "rape" victims.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

SanchezWhaler wrote:Then why the fuck are you even posting here?
Because you made a big deal about one sentence I said, which was taken from the context. No fucking shit.
Halliburton clearly did something horrible here, but the comparison to the Red Army is truly atrocious. When Halliburton employees go on an equivalent rampage of rape, murder, and pillaging throughout Iraq, then we can talk. Until then, a couple of horrible episodes don't make Halliburton the more evil in a comparison of atrocities between itself and the Red Army.
The only reason why Halliburton isn't more evil is because they're restrained, by the US military. Or are you going to claim the potential for abuse isn't there? Besides, since when did I say Halliburton was more EVIL? The context of the discussion was comparison of militaries with corporate private armies, and this will necessarily mean the latter will have smaller scale. Or will you say we can't compare the two's standard of conduct at all?
Refer to the sources I provided.
So I will go to the library, with MY time and MY money, and take out four books, and read them in their entirety to find the one paragraph where it talks about the numbers of women raped?

Don't be a fucking douche. What the fuck do you think this is, an essay? I'm not your teaching assistant.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Why should I waste my time trying to prove to you something that many more illustrious and educated historians agree happened?
Actually brian has a point.

Case in point: you have an illustrious historian claim that there were "X people raped", but it's not a given he employed sound statistics.

For example, some "illustrious historians" think hundreds of thousands of people perished in Dresden, while the more solid and documented death toll is around ~35000, which is an order less.
In any case, the fact that Germans preferred to surrender to the Americans and British is widely documented.
Maybe because they (justly) feared retribution for what they did to the USSR, but this retribution de-facto happened to be quite less severe than their own actions.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Here's a newsflash. Halliburton and security contractors execute, court martial and imprison zero rapists.

So where does that put it on the "evil" scale with the Red Army eh? Nevermind I wasn't talking about absolute evil, or relative evil, but the evil rules of the environment in which they work. If any national army was run the way Halliburton or Blackwater ran its operations, atrocities would be the norm, which is the point you seem to miss.
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Post by Big Phil »

brianeyci wrote:So I will go to the library, with MY time and MY money, and take out four books, and read them in their entirety to find the one paragraph where it talks about the numbers of women raped?

Don't be a fucking douche. What the fuck do you think this is, an essay? I'm not your teaching assistant.
Jesus, you're being a dildo again aren't you, and I haven't even made a comment about your fucking age... Norman Naimark estimates 2 million rape victims, as does Richard Overy, as does Antony Beevor. Beevor's book doesn't contain a single paragraph discussing rape; the entire fucking book talks about it over and over and over, reinforcing the point and the scale of the atrocities. Other authors may disagree on the exact number, but they agree on the scale at least.

Now either admit that you don't have an argument or put one up showing how the estimates put forth by these authors are flawed. Stop being such a stubborn dipshit, and accept that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Just in case you're not too fucking lazy to click on links, here are some to reviews of Beevor's book:

http://www.rense.com/general25/angers.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... world.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,36 ... 35,00.html
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Post by Big Phil »

Stas Bush wrote:Actually brian has a point.

Case in point: you have an illustrious historian claim that there were "X people raped", but it's not a given he employed sound statistics.
Perhaps, but does brian have a criticism of how the estimate was done, other than "he just doesn't believe it?"
Stas Bush wrote:For example, some "illustrious historians" think hundreds of thousands of people perished in Dresden, while the more solid and documented death toll is around ~35000, which is an order less.
I would question the "illustriousness" of any historian who thinks hundreds of thousands died in Dresden; they're clearly working with a new type of math I've never heard of.
Stas Bush wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:In any case, the fact that Germans preferred to surrender to the Americans and British is widely documented.
Maybe because they (justly) feared retribution for what they did to the USSR, but this retribution de-facto happened to be quite less severe than their own actions.
No argument here - the Krauts got what was coming to them for what they did in Russia, and probably got off easy all things considering.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Beevor's book doesn't contain a single paragraph discussing rape; the entire fucking book talks about it over and over and over
Specifically about Beevor: the numerical estimate is made in a single paragraph and without statistical source. The rest of the book deals with individual examples of rape. And then, it's not true to say "the entire book talks about it over and over" - only several paragraphs in several chapters. I've actually read the book, so here I can say it doesn't really give statistics. I don't know about Overy or Naimark, what kind of methods they used, but Beevor for once didn't really fill his book with "2000000 raped" in all pages, neither did he provide foundation for his claim.
Beevor wrote:By the estimates of two main Berlin hospitals, the number of rape victims is 95-130 thousand people [... Bevor gives no reference to any documents whatsoever ...]. One doctor made an estimate about 100.000 women in Berlin [... No reference again ...]. And about 10.000 women died of suicide [... Somehow suicide became connected with rape - while even earlier Beevor, as all historians, acknowledges the fact that suicides were caused by Nazi propaganda about Soviet atrocities, so that many women killed themselves and their children even upon hearing that the Russian forces are coming, thanks to Dr. Goebbels ...]. The number of deaths in East Germany is, to my mind, a lot more [... Number of deaths (!) somehow became connected with number of rapes, and "to his mind" ...], if we take into account 1.400.000 raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia [... Where's the source? Looks like his estimates again ...]. It seems, there was like 2.000.000 raped women in total {936}
If this is the method you arrive at a number, no cookies.

The Nanking Massacre had burial records. Which records did Beevor analyze here? How? But I'll tell you how.

Reference number {936} in Beevor's book. Sander and Johr.

I.e. Beevor did not employ any statistics. He took the number from Sander and Johr, whose research could have been original. So far I havent been able to get that book, but I think the fact that Beevor himself didn't get ahold of any records but instead relied on Sander, doesn't really mean he actually "researched" the number in any meaningful fashion.
I would question the "illustriousness" of any historian who thinks hundreds of thousands died in Dresden; they're clearly working with a new type of math I've never heard of.
So did I, because it's a lie, and the perpetrator of said lie is David Irving. However, the number was reprinted in Encarta and Columbia encyclopedia. Both of those are made by high-profile educational facilities.

Irving's cause himself shows that even archival work and good academic review of earlier work does not preclude a historian from erring, either deliberately or specifically, due to political circumstances.

The only true historical knowledge, especially in what concerns statistics, must come from records analysis. That's how the Holocaust, Nanking, etc. were established.

Admittedly scaling such a crime as rape is not as easy; there could be cases where a woman would report "rape" to hospital for abortion, however, she might have just sold herself for a piece of bread/protection/other foods. Which is prostitution caused by extreme need.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:
brianeyci wrote:So I will go to the library, with MY time and MY money, and take out four books, and read them in their entirety to find the one paragraph where it talks about the numbers of women raped?

Don't be a fucking douche. What the fuck do you think this is, an essay? I'm not your teaching assistant.
Jesus, you're being a dildo again aren't you, and I haven't even made a comment about your fucking age... Norman Naimark estimates 2 million rape victims, as does Richard Overy, as does Antony Beevor. Beevor's book doesn't contain a single paragraph discussing rape; the entire fucking book talks about it over and over and over, reinforcing the point and the scale of the atrocities. Other authors may disagree on the exact number, but they agree on the scale at least.

Now either admit that you don't have an argument or put one up showing how the estimates put forth by these authors are flawed. Stop being such a stubborn dipshit, and accept that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Just in case you're not too fucking lazy to click on links, here are some to reviews of Beevor's book:

http://www.rense.com/general25/angers.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... world.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,36 ... 35,00.html
I didn't say shit, didn't attack you or anything except ask you to convince me with the full context and quotes from the books, and you said "why should I waste my time" etc. Who the fuck do you think you are? Why the fuck should I do your homework for you, and since when did the rules of this forum change from me doing your work to you doing your work if you made a claim?

I read those links for you, because I'm such a "dildo" as you put it. By the way, standard practise in a debate is quote from the links themselves, rather than link spam and expect people to dig through them. So even when you do that, you're going over the line. You've been here long enough to know that, so no fucking excuse.

Age? Where the fuck did that come from?

Now as for the millions of women raped, if I accept Beevor's source (which I really shouldn't, because from your links it looks like he's a sensationalist writer looking to expand his reputation and from what Stas Bush says no dice) it still doesn't change the fact that Halliburton and private corporations have no mechanism in place to deal with rapists, while the military has the firing squad. If Halliburtonesque practises were used by a military invading a country, the country would be looted and raped to shit, especially if that country had a totally different culture.

Let's say I accept your sources. The key question about discipline is, would the Soviets had acted any differently if the Nazis had not raped and pillaged their way into Russia? Even though it's rather disgusting and immoral, if a military sanctions rape unofficially or officially on certain levels, like that Zhukov quote seems to say, then it's no longer breaking discipline. When they cracked the whip seriously in 1947 onward, the rapes ended. Can Halliburton CEO or the investment guys who back the security contractors crack the whip and end abuse whenever they want? It would be in their best interest, because media scrutiny is bad for business. I don't think so, because they're a bunch of undisciplined louts.

In short, even if your version of events are true, and the Soviet army sanctioned rape, they cut it off. Can Halliburton or Blackwater executives send a memo down the line and stop their problems? No. End of story.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Can Halliburton or Blackwater executives send a memo down the line and stop their problems?
They actually can. The problem is, they don't, and they lack institutions to control their hired goons. If they wanted, they could create them, but what is the reason for that?

Unlike a regular army, which will crack down on rapes since it's bad for discipline, privateers don't care. Their discipline only impacts their image if there's "media scrutiny" (is there really? how many cases of rape, looting and civilian murder in Iraq have been investigated and the involved persons indicted by a privateer analogue of a court-martial?)...

The lack of a court-martial is indeed a serious problem; it's presence and active position can curtail wrongdoing in a 11,000,000 strong army if there's sufficient will to do so.

In a private contractors' case, the institution to do that is lacking alltogether, so they'd have hard time to get anyone judged; especially with the judicial carte blanche from the US administration.

Sander and Johr, rape statistics
The 2,000,000 number originates from Sander and Johr's book "Befreier und Befreite", 1992. As far as I could gather without having the book itself (I consulted the Russian Military Historical forum Archives) the method is as following:
In 1945, 11 thousand Berlin woman were pregnant, 90% made abortions. The 10% gave birth, and 5% of born were ethnically Russian.
That doesn't look like 100,000 or 2,000,000. I guess there's statistical extrapolation from either abortion records or pregnancy records. Both of those have problems to be used as rape statistic indication, which I gave above - the incredibly ravaged territory of Germany forced many women to sell their bodies for bread and food, however, as even Beevor himself notes in his book, those instances were reported to the hospitals as "rape" to give said woman abortion assistance. Obviously all of it is forced sexual contact - either through actual rape or poverty desperation - but rape isn't 100% of cases.

And the conduct of the US? One statistic I heard is that in the US HQ already in March-April 1945 some 487 Army personnel were tried for rape. That's given the fact that the US was one of the morally superior Allies and exhibited extreme reluctance to try it's soldiers by court-martials.

The French? After they entered Stuttgart, several thousand personnel were court-martialled for rapes.

So why does the Red Army get unquely selected? Because of the mass scale? I'm checking Naimark right now. We'll see if his research is original, and how his numbers were arrived at.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Here's what I managed to gather on Naimark:
Norman Naimark writes in The Russians in Germany: A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949 that although the exact number of women and girls who were raped by members of the Red Army in the months preceding and years following the capitulation will never be known, their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, quite possibly as high as the 2,000,000 victims estimate made by Barbara Johr, in "Befrier und Befreite".
It seems everyone just uses the Johr/Sander estimate without statistical investigation.

So if that's true, Beevor and Naimark did not do any original research on rape statistics, and merely cited a number from people whose methods are still unclear.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Post by Stark »

Is there any records reason for this? When an author is reasonably well-referenced elsewhere, I'd be curious to see why it's left to such vague references here.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

When an author is reasonably well-referenced elsewhere, I'd be curious to see why it's left to such vague references here.
One of the problems is probably a lack of original research. That's not uncommon as a problem in historiography. For example, if the matter is unpopular and sparsely touched, only a few research works will be made.

Later authors can skip working on very hard topics (you bet establishing even a rough estimate for rapes can be painstakingly hard, given the rape/prostitution angle, district-specific statistics (in Berlin, as I noted earlier, Sander and Johr extrapolate rates from abortions down to "abortion = rape" (simplification #1), through the records of one district hospital (which had a well preserved record base which can't be said for other hospitals in Berlin) (simplification #2, assuming a uniform rate from simplification #1).

Not hard to arrive at a number of 2,000,000 raped using such extrapolatory methods.

For example, I could extrapolate from thousands of rape court-martials to a figure of several thousand rapes in Stuttgart by the French to other neighboring cities, which could have ravaged/inaccessible records. Would I be correct to apply a uniform rate? Not really: the Stuttgart incident involved a high concentration of ill-behaving Moroccans. Other cities probably have a lower rate. Here's just one question to ponder.

Which cities in East Germany were occupied by rear troops? Which by frontline troops? The difference in discipline would reflect the rape rates, which would involuntarily be higher in rear troop station places. Frontline-occupied cities would have lower rates of rape.

Commanders' attitude is also important. Even Naimark notes that Red Army commanders were not prepared for such massive misbehaviour of their soldiers and actively tried to curtail the violence. But some were obviously more harsh than others; thus uniform-rate extrapolations cannot be used here.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Post by Stark »

Well, that's really my confusion. Beevor mentions these factors, but then simply quotes the 'standard' number, which seems odd. His use of Soviet records (poor by Russian standards no doubt) certainly demonstrates the different attitudes between frontline troops are rear-area troops.

Even if it's just difficulty, it's somewhat dishonest to quote a figure at all. I guess a lot of this could be cleared up if anyone could FIND that source and examine it's methodology.
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Post by Big Phil »

Stas Bush wrote:It seems everyone just uses the Johr/Sander estimate without statistical investigation.

So if that's true, Beevor and Naimark did not do any original research on rape statistics, and merely cited a number from people whose methods are still unclear.
I didn't reference Johr or Sander's work because it's in German, I don't speak German, and I haven't read their work. I cannot comment on how they arrived at their 2 million figure, although based on what I've read in Beevor and Naimark, it appears that they extrapolated based on the # of abortions (allegedly) performed each year after 1945, as well as from other sources.

The 2 million figure may be high, but even if the number is (only) half a million, that's still indicative of either serious disciplinary problems in the Red Army (i.e., looking the other way or uncontrollable soldiers), or an official sanction of the practice.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:The 2 million figure may be high, but even if the number is (only) half a million, that's still indicative of either serious disciplinary problems in the Red Army (i.e., looking the other way or uncontrollable soldiers), or an official sanction of the practice.
Looking other way. Not all commanders wanted to go all out guns blazing despite having orders from Front Commanders (based on an order from Stalin) to shoot for criminal misbehaviour (rape). After all those were their soldiers who passed through the whole war with them.

Yes, it was a serious disciplinary problem. The fact that higher leadership started issuing orders aimed to curtail the violence shows that neither field commanders nor front commanders and USSR Stavka were ready for such spontaneous violence against civilian populations.

Many commanders found it hard to explain to the soldiers how the Germans could not be targets of agression. I read several similar reports where a commander reports to his superior that some of his soldiers said "Germans killed all my family, now I just don't care". :roll: With such attitudes becoming massive during the advancement into Germany, the hopes to curtail it by shooting a few evaporated. Field commanders could also fear reprisals and thus not report the misdeeds of their underlings.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Post by Big Phil »

brianeyci wrote:Let's say I accept your sources. The key question about discipline is, would the Soviets had acted any differently if the Nazis had not raped and pillaged their way into Russia? Even though it's rather disgusting and immoral, if a military sanctions rape unofficially or officially on certain levels, like that Zhukov quote seems to say, then it's no longer breaking discipline.
It sounds like you're offering a legal justification for rape: i.e., "the General told me to do it." I hope that's a misunderstanding...

brianeyci wrote:When they cracked the whip seriously in 1947 onward, the rapes ended.
Stas already addressed this, but the Red Army did in fact make (some) efforts at stopping the atrocities from the very beginning. In any case, the fact that rapes happened on such a scale (whether it's 2 million or not) puts lie to your claim that the Red Army was a disciplined force.
brianeyci wrote:Can Halliburton CEO or the investment guys who back the security contractors crack the whip and end abuse whenever they want? It would be in their best interest, because media scrutiny is bad for business. I don't think so, because they're a bunch of undisciplined louts.
Of course they could - my company could choose to turn off the Internet for all of its employees to ensure that we don't waste time browsing Facebook or Myspace, but they choose not to. Halliburton could just as easily change the culture or turn over its employees to the US for prosecution, but they choose not to.
brianeyci wrote:In short, even if your version of events are true, and the Soviet army sanctioned rape, they cut it off. Can Halliburton or Blackwater executives send a memo down the line and stop their problems? No. End of story.
Of course they can; they choose not to. Likewise, they could pressure the government to close the loophole preventing prosecution of the offenders, but they choose not to. Much like the Red Army could have prevented the atrocities its soldiers committed, but didn't for a variety of excuses.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Much like the Red Army could have prevented the atrocities its soldiers committed, but didn't for a variety of excuses.
You're correct in stating that American privateers could in principle stop it.

Contractors in Iraq are few in numbers (far fewer than the Red Army) and thus curtailing violence or punishing responsbile parties would be easiler....

Except they lack the institutions to do so, as far as I understand. They don't have specific investigatory commitees and court-martial groups. Which means that their people must be punished by extraneous institutions, and that's unlikely given the legal carte blanche.

I must note that the Red Army has both an advantage and disadvantage over American mercenaries in Iraq. The Red Army has court martials which are an effective measure of executing misbehaving soldiers. However, it's far more massive (a dozen million) and there's a huge war going on.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Post Reply