The "Real Origin" of The Holiday

[The Yosemite Bear]

yup, the stupid local fundies were once again joining in on Bill-O's crusade to protect "Christmas". And once again I brought up the 5th century church's descision to change christ's birthday to match the time of the Viking, Mithric, and Saturn based holidays that happened at the same time.

So let's hear it for pre-christian "Christmas" thread.

[Mr. Coffee]

Wait, you mean GAWD allowed them HEATHENS to have holidays before Baby Jesus' B-Day?

Pshaw...

[The Yosemite Bear]

lets deck the trees with the corpses of the enemy/convicts in honor of ODIN!!!

and the Yule father brings prezzies for good Vikings too.

[Darth Wong]

Christianity is the "true origin" of the holiday where you go sit in a Catholic church and listen to a priest droning at you for two hours. It's not the true origin of the holiday where you decorate trees, eat, drink, and be merry while exchanging gifts. Even most right-wing Christians secretly realize this, and many even complain about the "commercial Christmas" while continuing to celebrate it. Bunch of whiny hypocritical shits.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Remember as Ben Franklin (what a perv) used to say.

"To be a Puritan is to live in constant fear that someone, somewhere is having a good time."

[Old Peculier]

Oh Mithras

This thread inspired me to look up a bit on Mithras, so my girlfriend and I were amused by the wikiclaiming: 'From the structure of the mithraea it is possible to surmise that worshippers would have gathered for a common meal along the reclining couches lining the walls.'

Reclining couches and food in a cave or uncomfortable pews? If I was going to celebrate a 'traditional' winter holiday I know which I'd prefer.

[Norseman]

Oh Mithras

This thread inspired me to look up a bit on Mithras, so my girlfriend and I were amused by the wikiclaiming: 'From the structure of the mithraea it is possible to surmise that worshippers would have gathered for a common meal along the reclining couches lining the walls.'

Reclining couches and food in a cave or uncomfortable pews? If I was going to celebrate a 'traditional' winter holiday I know which I'd prefer.

Your girlfriend wouldn't be welcome, the Cult of Mithras was men only, it was a fraternal society. You could say that it was a mixture between a Fraternity and the Free Masons (though the Free Masons of old were often little more than a wild drinking society).

Since everybody celebrated something around that time the Christian Church decided that they had to do so as well. However Christmas is not Yule, that's a common misunderstanding but Yule was in fact earlier on in December. Historically the first Christian kings changed the date of the solstice celebration so it'd match with the Christian celebration.

Now then about the video... they got the name Mithras right, they got the birth date right but... Damn it! I'm fed up with people getting ancient religions wrong so here goes:

He was a saviour, mithras, sent to Earth so sinners could be reborn into eternal life

Not quite, Mithras slew the Great Heavenly bull, and shed its life giving blood, so that the universe could be born and we might live. Nor did the cult have the concept of sin as such, but rather it thought that the problem was ignorance of the Mysteries of Mithras.

He died for our sins

He never died.

but came back to life the following sunday

And since he never died he never came back to life.

He was born of a virgin in a cave or a manger

He was born of a giant rock (or a pine-cone in some rare variations) in a cave, which is why all the Mithraeums were caves or made to look like caves. No virgin was involved, well, I'm sure the rock was technically a virgin but that's not quite what they have in mind.

Attended by shepheards

Nope, Pates and Cautopates were torchbearers, not shepheards, symbolic of life and death, beginnings and ends, night and day, and things like that. One held his torch up, the other had it pointing down.

He was known as the light of the world

Possibly, such titles were common, and he was a frigging sun god.

He had twelve disciples

There's no evidence whatsoever of this, however I think I know where the confusion comes from... in some engravings Mithras is surrounded by ritual representations of the Zodiac.

With whom he shared a last meal before dying

Since he never died there was no last meal, though ritual meals were important to mithraism.

His followers symbolically shared the flesh and blood of him

No.

There was a ritual sharing of flesh and blood, where the priests would spread a bull hide over the dining area and consecrate bread and wine. However when you look at the portrayal of the bull that Mithras slew you'll see that often it's shown as spouting grain from its tail...

In short the meal was ritually imbibing the life giving bull that Mithras slew, not the god himself.

Most Christians at the time did see a similarity between their rituals and that of mithraism, and thought the devil had put the Mithraists up to it. Chritianity is actually, from extant evidence, slightly older than Mithraism (in the Mystery Cult sense) and we know the ritual meal was with Christianity from day one. Yet we don't see people arguing that the Mithraists stole from Christianity...

Because Mithras was a Sun God he was worshipped on Sunday

Yes, quite true, I'm surprised they got something right.

Often portrayed with a halo around his head

Occasionally portrayed with what could be a halo, but usually he wasn't. Mithras was generally recognised by wearing a phrygian cap, not by having a halo around his head.

Leader of the cult was called Papa

Pater or Pater Patrum (who was first among equals).

HQ was on Vatican Hill in Rome

There was no HQ for mithraism, just as there's no HQ for Free Masonry, the cult spread all across Europe and each congregation was pretty much independent. Christianity on the other hand had a strict Chain of Command.

[Dooey Jo]

I hear being an angry atheist is in vogue right now, and as such it is more important to cling to whatever one might perceive as being a blow to established Christian mythology rather than getting facts about mythology straight. This whole Mithraism = Christianity idea has really gotten out of hand...

And once again I brought up the 5th century church's descision to change christ's birthday to match the time of the Viking, Mithric, and Saturn based holidays that happened at the same time.

Well for one thing, Vikings didn't exist in the 5th century, and the church was probably not very concerned with what they were doing in Scandinavia at the time.

[Vendetta]

Though they probably did have midwinter festivals. It was a popular time for getting shitfaced and celebrating the fact that you've hit the point where nights are going to start getting shorter again. Just as early spring is a good time for celebrating the fact that this winter didn't manage to kill you, so there have always been celebrations then.

[Straha]

Wait, you mean GAWD allowed them HEATHENS to have holidays before Baby Jesus' B-Day?

Pshaw...

Fools. Nothing predated christians.

[Flagg]

Wait, you mean GAWD allowed them HEATHENS to have holidays before Baby Jesus' B-Day?

Pshaw...

Fools. Nothing predated christians.

I still can't believe that people are allowed to say shit like that on TV and not lose their jobs.

From the same stupid fatass bitch that thought it was still up for debate on whether the Earth was flat or not, and then tried to defend herself by saying she's too busy raising her kids and doing housework to pay attention to science. You got plenty of time to stuff your fat face full of food, you ugly whore.

[Zablorg]

Wait, you mean GAWD allowed them HEATHENS to have holidays before Baby Jesus' B-Day?

Pshaw...

Fools. Nothing predated christians.

I still can't believe that people are allowed to say shit like that on TV and not lose their jobs.

From the same stupid fatass bitch that thought it was still up for debate on whether the Earth was flat or not, and then tried to defend herself by saying she's too busy raising her kids and doing housework to pay attention to science. You got plenty of time to stuff your fat face full of food, you ugly whore.

Now now, lets got go ad hominemin'.

But seriously, wasn't it established that the world was round waaaay before she was born? Bitch has no fucking excuse.

[The Yosemite Bear]

by the anchient greeks using only sticks and shadows, they determined that the earth was round, and the size of the earth with only a 9% margin of error. and yes, the stupid girl can't even accept that the Egyptians, the mesopetamians, and the greek civilizations existed centuries before christianity.

[tim31]

I know it's the wrong time of year, but I'm totally going to do a Burning Man in the next two months.

[Dartzap]

There is a fantastic episode of QI about Christmas and its origins, I'll have to see if its on You Tube.It's presented by a gay bloke though, so they'd not take notice.

Edit: Part 1
Part 2 Part 3

Amusing yet intelligent:)

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I know it's the wrong time of year, but I'm totally going to do a Burning Man in the next two months.

Anyway, it's been proven numerous times that Christmas' origins are not christian at all. Hell there aren't really any christian holidays I can think of. Easter is the bastard child of pagan spring time fertility rituals. There is passover but it's gotten so covered over/absorbed by easter I don't think it really matters.

<Tid Bit> This is one of the things JW tote around alot. Holidays have no biblical origin and are thus pagan</Tid Bit>

I had heard that the church ~4th century AD had started looking for gods to emmulate. Wasn't there a Babylonian god who was born on the 25ht of Dec?

O and where do the 12 days of christmas come from?

[Rye]

That's weird, I somehow managed to go back in time and post under Norseman's nick and yet totally didn't remember it. Also, whoop for QI! Shityeahhhh!

[Darth Wong]

Though they probably did have midwinter festivals. It was a popular time for getting shitfaced and celebrating the fact that you've hit the point where nights are going to start getting shorter again. Just as early spring is a good time for celebrating the fact that this winter didn't manage to kill you, so there have always been celebrations then.

Umm, it's pretty well-known that the Winter Solstice is a significant date which has been a focus of celebrations for a very long time.

[Norseman]

There is a fantastic episode of QI about Christmas and its origins, I'll have to see if its on You Tube.It's presented by a gay bloke though, so they'd not take notice.

Edit: Part 1
Part 2 Part 3

Amusing yet intelligent:)

If by amusing yet intelligent you mean factually wrong about just about everything then sure. I've already debunked the whole Mithras = Jesus thing, and so has just about every single modern scholar on the subject. The only thing that QI show gets right is that at some point Yule influenced western Christmas, and the birth of Jesus was probably around the lambing season (shepheards out with their sheep at night?).

Note how they mention "in 1903 a lot of research came out..."

Yes in 1903 there were some seminal publications that were later almost entirely discredited. The whole 19th Century and pre-WWI 20th Century was filled with intellectuals desperately trying to make everything Christian an outgrowth of paganism. Following WWI new research into original sources, as well as archaeological digs proceeded to tear down the whole edifice.

Which is why it's amusing to see Fundies complaining about the modern day, and their godless scientists and archaeologists. Compared to the Victorian age, that they praise, modern day scientists are a bunch of starry eyed biblical maximalists.

But I digress...

Yes the secular part of the celebration has pagan influences, quite a few of them, and so does a lot of Christian practise. However a lot of Christian practises do not necessarily have pagan backgrounds, take the Twelve Days of Christmas; they could come from just about anywhere, there were 12 Disciples, 12 Tribes of Israel, etc etc. 3, 7, 9, 10 and 12 are common in a lot of cultures.

Then you have things like Easter, if you think that comes from pagan fertility rituals then you're a moron. Easter is a direct out growth of Passover, which should be painfully obvious since the Last Supper was a Passover meal.

Scholars are still debating the nature and amount of pagan influences on Christian practise, but there's also a new understanding of how novel Christianity was at times.

The simplistic Christianity = Paganism is simply wrong, and offensive to both Christians and Pagans. However it makes good copy, and so it's repeated over and over by angry atheists more concerned with bashing Christianity than getting history or mythology right.

Now I'll leave well alone.

[Ted C]

The simplistic Christianity = Paganism is simply wrong, and offensive to both Christians and Pagans. However it makes good copy, and so it's repeated over and over by angry atheists more concerned with bashing Christianity than getting history or mythology right.

I don't generally see widespread assertions that Christianity = Paganism. What I see are arguments that Christianity habitually coopted dates and rituals from European pagans into their own religion as a means of converting Europeans more easily.

The Christian Easter, for example, is unquestionably connected to Passover, as you say, but that hardly explains the holiday's association with eggs and bunnies, let alone the name of the holiday (which is derived from the name of a Celtic fertility goddess).

Christianity undoubtedly has its own reasons for its holidays, but it also shows a pattern of assimilating other holidays.

[Androsphinx]

Yes, with all due respect to the illustrious Mr Fry, he's talking a load of cobblers. But it does make good copy.

There's an interesting varient in Middle-Persian Jewish sources that attributes the Winter Solstice festival to Adam thinking that the world was going to be destroyed (days kept getting shorter). Once it started to get longer again, he realised that the world was not going to be destroyed, and celebrated. It's interesting firstly because the Jews didn't have a winter solstice festival (although the dominant Zoroastrians probably did), and because it explains why the festivals often came a couple of days after the solstice.

[Norseman]

I don't generally see widespread assertions that Christianity = Paganism. What I see are arguments that Christianity habitually coopted dates and rituals from European pagans into their own religion as a means of converting Europeans more easily.

Certainly, especially in rehabilitating old gods by making them saints. However many of these influences were more low key, and often had the nature of local people adding pagan characteristics to Christian feasts. For instance people were leaving a bowl of porridge out for the Nisse well into this century.

The Christian Easter, for example, is unquestionably connected to Passover, as you say, but that hardly explains the holiday's association with eggs and bunnies, let alone the name of the holiday (which is derived from the name of a Celtic fertility goddess).

In much of the world Easter is known as Pascha, from which Norwegians get Påske. The evidence of a goddess called Ostara very slim, and it'd make just as much sense that the month was named after the East or Dawn. This is doubly reasonable when you realise that unlike the Romans the Germanic groups often gave the months descriptive names (like "Butchering Month," "Harvest Month") rather than name them after the gods.

The connection with eggs is oddly enough very old with Christianity, if you look at some of the very oldest Christian iconography the egg is very prominent. This makes sense when you think of the common Christian themes such as rebirth. On the other hand it's also common in pagan iconography... So here you have a problem, did one group influence the other, or was it an independent invention? Tough one...

As for the Easter Bunny the problem is that the first mentions of it that I can find originate from Germany around the 1500s by which time there weren't a lot of pagans around. In short someone made the Easter Bunny up, and it'd be as futile to look for Pagan Fertility Gods in the person of Santa Claus.

[Ted C]

As for the Easter Bunny the problem is that the first mentions of it that I can find originate from Germany around the 1500s by which time there weren't a lot of pagans around. In short someone made the Easter Bunny up, and it'd be as futile to look for Pagan Fertility Gods in the person of Santa Claus.

I have a source that identifies Ostara as an Anglo-Saxon personification of dawn, for what it's worth. I can't vouch for their sources, of course; at a glance, it looks about as reliable as Wikipedia.

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology ... icles.html

Santa Clause is a Christmas tradition that supposedly does go back to Teutonic myth, according to a History Channel show I saw. According to them, Woden was credited with slipping into houses in the middle of the night at midwinter and dropping off toys, and they recounted how Saint Nicholas basically supplanted Woden as the gifter as conversion progressed.

[Norseman]

As for the Easter Bunny the problem is that the first mentions of it that I can find originate from Germany around the 1500s by which time there weren't a lot of pagans around. In short someone made the Easter Bunny up, and it'd be as futile to look for Pagan Fertility Gods in the person of Santa Claus.

I have a source that identifies Ostara as an Anglo-Saxon personification of dawn, for what it's worth. I can't vouch for their sources, of course; at a glance, it looks about as reliable as Wikipedia.

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology ... icles.html

Why is Ostara mentioned under Celtic myth? However it was Grimm, of the Brothers Grimm, who suggested that there'd been such a creature as Ostara. However that strikes me as odd, since she doesn't have any counter-piece in the Norse pantheon.

Santa Clause is a Christmas tradition that supposedly does go back to Teutonic myth, according to a History Channel show I saw. According to them, Woden was credited with slipping into houses in the middle of the night at midwinter and dropping off toys, and they recounted how Saint Nicholas basically supplanted Woden as the gifter as conversion progressed.

Twaddle.

Utter twaddle.

Yes one of Odin's names was Ylir, but let me say that if Odin (or Woden) slipped into your house at night it was to slip something to your daughters or wives! Not to leave gifts! Odin was not the sort of god you wanted to have anything, whatsoever, to do with if you could avoid it.

Yes Christmas gifts are an old Germanic tradition, but they weren't for the children. Basically people would give gifts to cement friendships, kings and earls to show their wealth and generosity. Not toys for the children.

I wouldn't be so upset if it wasn't my ancestor's beliefs being mangled so utterly.

[Flagg]

Fools. Nothing predated christians.

I still can't believe that people are allowed to say shit like that on TV and not lose their jobs.

From the same stupid fatass bitch that thought it was still up for debate on whether the Earth was flat or not, and then tried to defend herself by saying she's too busy raising her kids and doing housework to pay attention to science. You got plenty of time to stuff your fat face full of food, you ugly whore.

Now now, lets got go ad hominemin'.

But seriously, wasn't it established that the world was round waaaay before she was born? Bitch has no fucking excuse.

Sorry, she reached a level of fucktard where I question her actually being a human being and not some kind of psuedo-intelligent mold grown in a lab somewhere. I challenge her right to breath my air.

And IIRC the Greeks were aware of the Earth being at least curved, if not totally spherical. Anyone who lived on the coast and had anything to do with seafaring and more than 2 working braincells knew it wasn't flat. It was finally proven conclusively by Magellan, IIRC but it was common knowledge amoung the educated that the Earth was spherical long before then.