More Trektardism

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2007-10-10 07:20pm

Aratech wrote:On a similar note, does anyone have the ROTS ICS and access to a scanner? My printer has chosen this time to break down, and I need a print out to prove to Spocky that the guns we see firing in the movie are in fact point defense weaponry.

They aren't. They were manned. You don't man PD weaponry, reaction times aren't fast enough. It was antistarfighter weaponry.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2007-10-10 07:31pm

Ender wrote:
Aratech wrote:On a similar note, does anyone have the ROTS ICS and access to a scanner? My printer has chosen this time to break down, and I need a print out to prove to Spocky that the guns we see firing in the movie are in fact point defense weaponry.
They aren't. They were manned. You don't man PD weaponry, reaction times aren't fast enough. It was antistarfighter weaponry.

Well, I'm not sure what to make of it then. The ICS calls them a point defense ion cannon, and I thought it pretty freaking obvious that they weren't the big guns, seeing as how the Venator's HTLs are about the size of a small office building.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-10-11 05:51am

Aratech wrote: Well, I'm not sure what to make of it then. The ICS calls them a point defense ion cannon, and I thought it pretty freaking obvious that they weren't the big guns, seeing as how the Venator's HTLs are about the size of a small office building.

You mean those droid operated guns ejecting shells in the movie? They aren't PD guns or ion cannons. They're mass drivers. The ROTS Visual Dictionary clarifies that.

The guns on the republic SD's were identified as "laser cannons" but this doesn't neccearily mean point defense either. Moreover, those guns fired shots that arced when fired (as if guided projectiles), so its doubful they were beam weapons

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2007-10-11 06:26am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Aratech wrote: Well, I'm not sure what to make of it then. The ICS calls them a point defense ion cannon, and I thought it pretty freaking obvious that they weren't the big guns, seeing as how the Venator's HTLs are about the size of a small office building.
You mean those droid operated guns ejecting shells in the movie? They aren't PD guns or ion cannons. They're mass drivers. The ROTS Visual Dictionary clarifies that.

The guns on the republic SD's were identified as "laser cannons" but this doesn't neccearily mean point defense either. Moreover, those guns fired shots that arced when fired (as if guided projectiles), so its doubful they were beam weapons

Just looked them up on Wookiee. Would these be the plasma variant? And what can be deduced from them being bolted onto the IH?

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2007-10-11 07:54am

Ghetto edit.

Just found the article on wiki, these ones were slugthrowers. Though they are apparently still considered PD weaponry.

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2007-10-11 10:40am

I just checked the footage from that battle, it was when one of the droid shell guns took a direct hit and exploded that triggered the IH's first nosedive

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2007-10-11 08:01pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Moreover, those guns fired shots that arced when fired (as if guided projectiles), so its doubful they were beam weapons

Yeah, I've noticed that a while ago too, and I assumed that it was more evidence for this?

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2007-10-12 07:46pm

More stupidity:

And for Q-torps (man long time since I typed that ~sigh for the RPG days~ ) a load out or two would chew through the Death Star ?hull.

When I pointed out how thick the DS's hull is, this is the response:

Officially the DSII is 160 Kilometers in Diameter, meaning you only need to chew through 80 kilometers or so. Let's say a "Q Torp" is roughly equal to a 10 megaton nuke-- reasonable given they're suppose to be a upgrade and massive step over the traditional p-torp. A 10 megaton nuke has a blast/damage radius (give or take) of around 4 miles, mean 20 to 25 Q-Torps. A load or two, chain loaded into the launchers, with a ship doing hit and runs-- or several ships for that matter-- would be more than enough.

Of course this doesn't factor in secondary explosions (fuel, subsystems, reactors) and explosive decompression as well.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2007-10-12 07:56pm

Wait, Spocky said that?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2007-10-12 08:24pm

Every time you think the Trektards can't get any stupider, they do. Leaving alone the completely baseless assumption about QT firepower how exactly is the blast radius of a 10 MT explosion in atmosphere affecting ordinary urban structures comparable t a vacuum detonation against a heavily armoured space station?

And since the DS2's CANONICAL size is 800+ km no matter what who cares what it's official size used to be?

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-10-12 11:30pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:More stupidity:
When I pointed out how thick the DS's hull is, this is the response:
Officially the DSII is 160 Kilometers in Diameter, meaning you only need to chew through 80 kilometers or so. Let's say a "Q Torp" is roughly equal to a 10 megaton nuke-- reasonable given they're suppose to be a upgrade and massive step over the traditional p-torp. A 10 megaton nuke has a blast/damage radius (give or take) of around 4 miles, mean 20 to 25 Q-Torps. A load or two, chain loaded into the launchers, with a ship doing hit and runs-- or several ships for that matter-- would be more than enough.

Of course this doesn't factor in secondary explosions (fuel, subsystems, reactors) and explosive decompression as well.

Wait....what?

He's completely ignoring the fact that the Death Star's hull has armor intended to defeat extended barrages from weapons in the yield of hundreds of gigatons.

This also ignores the fact that we've never seen a Q-torp detonation, either in space or on the surface, with an AoO of that size; hell, four q-torps in First Contact generated an explosion not much bigger than the tiny Borg sphere, IIRC.

He's probably going to use this argument as a setup to claim that the hulls of SW vessels are weaker or some nonsense.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-12 11:36pm

'Blast/damage radius' = destroy everything regardless of composition, apparently.

I hear a quantum torpedo must kill everything in one hit, due to it's 'destroy everything inside 4 miles' nature!

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-10-12 11:57pm

Oh, crap, I didn't even realize that this was a no-limits fallacy, either. Need to work on my debating skills.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2007-10-13 09:03am

Where can I read this shit unplugged? I sadly can't find the link.

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2007-10-13 12:53pm

Maybe he missed "First Contact" where we were treated to a concentrated firepower of several Federation ships that managed to do this:

Whew! Look at those photons and quantums and phasers chewing through maybe a hundred meters of porous Borg hull.
Oh yes Death Star is toast.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2007-10-13 03:13pm

No matter, I did find it.

Reading a little more through the ST.com board, I wasn't really surprised how much stupidy is circling around there.

For one they honestly think that the Doomsday Machine could destroy the Death Star without being damaged in the slightest. That really made me wonder how they actually came to this conclusion (I didn't manage to filter it out from their babble).

Then I got a good idea of their ideas how many ships it would take for the Federation to destroy the Empire (they really seem to believe these totally retarded numbers).

The rest of the stuff was more of the same (like V'ger could defeat DS II). Now, that monster thread is propably the crown of this trend, but I really want to know: Was there a time when that board wasn't polluted by these idiots?

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2007-10-13 05:42pm

Since ST ships regularly engage each other at less than 1 km, Q-torps should be destroying the firing ship as well as the targetted ship just as often.

And can anyone tell me why I'm getting flashbacks of the ST:TNG episode "Ensigns of Command" when I watch Trektards speak? It always struck me as insane why a bunch of colonists stuck on a planet could even entertain the notion that they have a chance against a space power to whom their mere presence is offensive. Even ST powers can nuke a tiny colony whose entire orbital defense consists of unarmored sentries to kingdom come.

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2007-10-13 05:49pm

I left that thread after seeing there is no reasoning with them and I just checked back to see what's going on and holy shit is JMSpock spiraling into the depths of self delusion.

JMSpock wrote: The Borg can take the "brute force" output of a Galaxy class warp core operated at maximum. That is, as I've pointed out, hundreds of gigatons per second easily.

Never mind that Borg ships can't withstand the solar flare which he tries to explain by saying that the flare wasn't actually moving at 1km/s even though everyone can see the episode for themselves or that flares weren't actually yellow because there was some kind of "filter". Naturally ships were of the same color and the planet in the system was Earth like which means that blue giants are out of the question since they would radiate to much ultraviolet light.
Never mind that in "Cost of living" it took several seconds of "deflector dish beam" fire to destroy that 100-200 meter asteroid core.

Then there is this little gem:

JMSpock wrote:The Borg, FYI, operate millions of vessels... meaning tens of thousands of Death Stars...

Yes he takes Chakotay's statement at face value and then claims that we can determine accurately what percentage are cubes based on the ships we saw stubbornly insisting that 50 or so seen Borg ships is a suitable sample. On a side note million cubes, assuming Hansen's volume statement is correct, is actually 28 million km3 which would is only 13 times bigger than DS2 and not "tens of thousands".

Speaking of Borg cube sizes:

Sorry guys but that is 600m AT MOST.

Even the cube from First Contact isn't 3km wide:

Cube's edge is about 14 times wider than Miranda's saucer (the one on the left) which, with Miranda's width of 145m, gives us 2030m width for the Cube AT MOST again.

But shhhhh don't tell this to deluded Trekkies who think that cube=28km3 automatically.

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-10-13 10:30pm

I find it amusing that I offered JMSpock the chance to come and try to pass off his arguments here, but I gave up on that thread before I read his response.

Needless to say, I think he's terrified of the blatant ass-raping he'd likely get if he tried this nonsense where people have a basic grasp of military science, mathematics, and physics.

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-10-13 10:31pm

Ghetto edit: I find it amusing that I offered JMSpock the chance to come and try to pass off his arguments here, but he hasn't showed up, and I gave up on that thread before I read his response.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-10-13 10:56pm

It's amazing how much information Trekkies can extract from so little as a single sentence fragment in dialogue. Even Christian fundamentalists are often loathe to be so reckless in their interpretation of Scripture.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-10-14 01:14am

Darth Wong wrote:It's amazing how much information Trekkies can extract from so little as a single sentence fragment in dialogue. Even Christian fundamentalists are often loathe to be so reckless in their interpretation of Scripture.

Especially when the dialog is clearly speculation and subsequently proven wrong. Not that this is anything new for these morons. Other examples include the percentage of the borg cube needed to be destroyed to prevent it from "regenerating" which trektards have been throwing around for years.

Hell, the trektard in question even referenced "Ensigns of Command" where Riker says there shouldn't be more than a dozen colonists on the planet yet it turns out there are 15,000. Self-consistency is not a virture for these people.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-10-14 01:17am

Peptuck wrote:Ghetto edit: I find it amusing that I offered JMSpock the chance to come and try to pass off his arguments here, but he hasn't showed up, and I gave up on that thread before I read his response.

Don't worry. It was probably more ranting and raving about the "rabid warsie conspiracy" and how Mike censures differing points of views. The moron has accused mods at SpaceBattles of such after all. Classic Darkstar 101 technique.

lord Martiya · Post by **lord Martiya** » 2007-10-14 05:32am

Darth Wong wrote:It's amazing how much information Trekkies can extract from so little as a single sentence fragment in dialogue. Even Christian fundamentalists are often loathe to be so reckless in their interpretation of Scripture.

You understimate the Catholic ones: in my city one of them writed to a newspaper and 'demonstrated' that Halloween is satanic citing the Holy Bible, who don't speak of Halloween.

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2007-10-14 11:07am

Whew! Look at those photons and quantums and phasers chewing through maybe a hundred meters of porous Borg hull.
Oh yes Death Star is toast.

The Borg cube's outer surface has so many holes in it covered by little more than piping that "hull" is a slight misnomer. Compare that to the Death Star, which has a hull made up of solid, extremely tough metals going hundreds of meters down. Or do they think that the DS is like the average ST ship where shooting a phaser into one section of the station will do something like disable half the weapons on that side, or possibly pass straight through said hundreds of meters of extremely tough solid metal and pierce the reactor?