Is the Culture Overrated?

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-10-25 10:12am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I always knew it was a probe of sorts, but as to what it was there for and what may come later on (if anything), we can only ponder over. I would love another novel taking place in the time after LtW, which is at least several million years later (or was it a full galactic turn? I forget).

Well, the Epilogue makes pretty clear that it's a contact vessel, and it seems to be communicating on an equal footing with others. It seems to bear no ill-will to the subjects it's taken, given that they have the option of return with mindwipe, and it states that it decided not to actually make contact, due to all the fractiousness and squabbling it saw.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2006-10-25 12:00pm

Big Orange wrote:(for example no one could predict the violent outburst of the Azad Emperor once he was pushed into a corner by Gurgeh's superior gaming skills during the Azad tournament).

It's not that this behavior could not be expected, it's just that no one expected the Homomdan (or another equiv-tech civilization) to lend an effector to the Azadian just to piss on the schemes of the Culture

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Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-10-25 12:37pm

Well, since the analogy has always been the Culture are the US while the Homomda are the USSR, it's only logical they'd do a proxy war at times if it suited them. Gotta love politics, even on a galactic scale.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-10-25 01:01pm

I don't think the Homomda are really the USSR anymore than the Culture is like the USA; the Homomda remind me more of the old British Empire. Also I said many posts ago that there seems to be a cold war of sorts between the Homomda and the Culture. Anyway, what do we know about the Homomda apart from loaning their warships to the Idirans? We know that they have been a galactic power for longer than the Culture and they may have hyper intelligent AIs that could essentially be Homomda Minds so to speak (we did see an ex-Homomda ship in Excession that may have defected or was converted to the Culture, during the Idiran War).

Does the Homomda have society similar to the Culture, only it's not so humanoid or AI centric? Are they also like a more conventional imperium modelled along the Idiran Empire, only much older? In the Culture books I've read so far, it all seems frustratingly vague. And hard to tell how advanced the Idirans were themselves and how they could inflict fairly significant casualties on the Culture population and ships (although you Idiran troops with war drones and their warships could engage Culture ships from lightyears away - even though there is significant tech disparity between a lone Idiran cruiser and lone GCU).

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2006-10-25 01:26pm

Post IW, the relations between the Homomdans and the Culture are much more cordial and friendly than they ever were between the USA and USSR. It's just that the Homomdan likely have a policy of stability and non-interference with other lesser civilizations, so sometimes the Culture pisses them off, even though its intentions are mostly good. Though the Homomdan IIC freed the Idiran homeworld from their oppressors...

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-10-25 01:52pm

The Nomad wrote:Post IW, the relations between the Homomdans and the Culture are much more cordial and friendly than they ever were between the USA and USSR. It's just that the Homomdan likely have a policy of stability and non-interference with other lesser civilizations, so sometimes the Culture pisses them off, even though its intentions are mostly good. Though the Homomdan IIC freed the Idiran homeworld from their oppressors...

In Consider Phlebas it was said that the relationship between the Culture and Homomda was relatively cordial even during the Idiran War when the Homomda was the Idiran's biggest sponsor in ships, weapons and material. I get the impression that Homomda have been on a major political decline as a galactic superpower and are perhaps a much smaller space civilisation than the Culture, despite being older and having similar technology (maybe the Homomda are going to Sublime many millennia before the Culture itself will?). It could be that Homomda are subtly cramping the Culture's style (like in the Azad incident) because they are like France is now towards America - a former superpower annoying a current superpower for the sake of regaining old dignity. And while the Culture is ruled over by Minds, I wonder if the Homomda is much the same (ie controlled by it's technology).

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2006-10-25 02:26pm

Big Orange wrote:they are like France is now towards America - a former superpower annoying a current superpower for the sake of regaining old dignity.

Hey do as if I wasn't there

Though your reasoning is flawed : the CP annexes make it clear that, had things gotten foul during the IW (like the Culture actively going after Homomdan assets and blowing up their planets), the Homomdans would have bitch-slapped the Culture.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2006-10-25 02:39pm

About Zakalwe : the only real fuckup of the Culture was not rescuing him before he got beheaded; losing Darkense's bone shard is IIRC what caused him to short a fuse, and shatter his veneer of normality : that's when the trouble started.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-10-25 03:22pm

The Nomad wrote:
Big Orange wrote:they are like France is now towards America - a former superpower annoying a current superpower for the sake of regaining old dignity.
Hey do as if I wasn't there

Though your reasoning is flawed : the CP annexes make it clear that, had things gotten foul during the IW (like the Culture actively going after Homomdan assets and blowing up their planets), the Homomdans would have bitch-slapped the Culture.

I never read anything about the Homomda being able to the bitch-slap the highly spread out and mobile Culture, but it was stated that the Idiran War would've greatly escalate if the Homomda and Culture had directly attacked each other (maybe other galactic powers on their same level or even one of the Sublimed would've stepped in by that point).

kinnison · Post by **kinnison** » 2006-12-05 03:18pm

Is the Culture tjhe biggest badass force in SF? Not really - although they are pretty near the top in that league. However, there is a cast of several (number not specified) entities that probably outclass them in physical might; any of the civilisations in the Transcend of Vernor Vinge's "Fire upon the Deep" universe. To demonstrate this I would have to write a spoiler, unfortunately. The numbe is not specified because it is stated that after transcension, a civilisation (or at least all the ones they know about) burns itself out in a couple of months at best.

Another candidate is the neutron-star dwellers from Dragon's Egg. They advance from preliterate to manipulating gravity in a couple of weeks (their life cycle is millions of times faster than human) so what would a few years do?

Last, any of the greater Archailects from Orion's Arm. One of these makes a Culture Mind look moronic.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-12-05 03:21pm

That's great and all, but this is thread necromancy and you might want to look up what that means with regards to your future if it becomes a trend.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-12-05 04:23pm

I don't think this thread is hugely old, so I don't mind.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-12-05 04:27pm

Big Orange wrote:I don't think this thread is hugely old, so I don't mind.

Why, thank you, Mr. Moderator. May I have the controls now?

Another thread resurrected from even longer ago now.

kinnison, enough.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-12-05 04:53pm

kinnison wrote: Another candidate is the neutron-star dwellers from Dragon's Egg. They advance from preliterate to manipulating gravity in a couple of weeks (their life cycle is millions of times faster than human) so what would a few years do?

Don't extrapolate to infinity.

Last, any of the greater Archailects from Orion's Arm. One of these makes a Culture Mind look moronic.

Say their wankers. OA is exceedingly soft science that pees in the eye of reality, and has the nerve to claim otherwise. Their statements of the power of the Archailects are 'nice' and all, but there is little to determine the intellect of a Mind - I did some numbers once, and they were fairly impressive, but even so, not very illuminating.

Anyway, this is necromancy.