We all thought the Eclipse was huge...

[NecronLord]

I disagree, though they possess no visible weaponry. (Which is way off) They appear to have the profile of an Infidel class Raider. However they may be a type of Chaos Space Superiority fighter and the vessel in the background could be either a Styx heavy cruiser or an unknown Battleship.

Except for the lack of the distinctive skull-bridge and large vanes sticking up, and the addition massive ventral structures... They've nothing in common with it, at all, save a design lineage.

EDIT:

Really, nothing in common. They look more like the chaos cruisers than escorts.

However the lights visible on the escorts lead me to beleive that they are a variant of the Infidel instead.

The lights on those vessels could indicate a length a few times that of a modern passenger jet. They're not exactly bristling with them.

[NecronLord]

It would not be possible to fight battles in the Warp

It is not. It is considered utter madness to even try.

if time were screwed over such short ranges, either.

Given that the ships in question appear to be a few kilometers (using the 'they're destroyers' idea) from their mother ship... No. It's fucked all to hell if you want to call that a feisable combat formation, let alone for scaling.

Therefore, the distorting effects of the Warp on both space and time have to take place over astronomical scales.

Not at all. Logic does not exist in the warp - CoME, relativity... all these things fall down screaming in the warp. It is madness. All data derived in the warp is inherently suspect.

[NecronLord]

I would agree, though only on the basis that we cannot determine the size of the vessels escorting Leonatos' flagship. Say what you like about the Warp according to time, but I've never heard of it drastatically altering the size of object like that.

The Warp makes superluminal travel within it possible, and gross violations of conservation of energy and continuity, as well as gravity. A big lensing effect is nothing at all compared to the rose nebula - it's actually physically conceivable, unlike generating fleets out of nothing, or turning stars into crystal roses.

It is definitely possible to take accurate measurements in the Warp (otherwise it would be impossible for combat to take place there).

It is the next best thing, namely, insanity inducing. Even looking out of the ship's targetting systems means you're going to have to send armsmen in to kill the gunners later.

[NecronLord]

It would not be possible to fight battles in the Warp if time were screwed over such short ranges, either. Therefore, the distorting effects of the Warp on both space and time have to take place over astronomical scales.

You are presuming there is continuity of enviroment (or hell, physical laws) within the warp.

Stop it, you know that is untrue.

[Lord Zentei]

It would not be possible to fight battles in the Warp

It is not. It is considered utter madness to even try.

I

I seem to recall an instance of torps being fired upon a Chaos cruiser in in the Warp in a short story; is this de-canonized?

if time were screwed over such short ranges, either.

Given that the ships in question appear to be a few kilometers (using the 'they're destroyers' idea) from their mother ship... No. It's fucked all to hell if you want to call that a feisable combat formation, let alone for scaling.

Wait: you're assuming that the Warp distorts sizes because of the scales image, rather than from an external source?

[NecronLord]

I seem to recall an instance of torps being fired upon a Chaos cruiser in in the Warp in a short story; is this de-canonized?

I forget where. I seem to recall this being mentioned in some blurb about the warp, with 'most commanders consider warpspace combat to be the height of insanity' or some such.

Wait: you're assuming that the Warp distorts sizes because of the scales image, rather than from an external source?

I'm noting that any image taken in warp space could be anything. Information gained from events in the warp is not reliable, because there are basically no physical laws in there, and those that there are change according to the whim of the powers of the Warp.

That could be Cherubael mooning the camera.

[Lord Zentei]

I seem to recall an instance of torps being fired upon a Chaos cruiser in in the Warp in a short story; is this de-canonized?

I forget where. I seem to recall this being mentioned in some blurb about the warp, with 'most commanders consider warpspace combat to be the height of insanity' or some such.

The instance I had in mind was in the Maelstrom short story collection. It may be insanity to try to fight in the Warp, but if an Imperial captain can fire torpedoes in the Warp when he has nothing left to lose, I imagine that the distortion cannot be that extreme at short range.

Wait: you're assuming that the Warp distorts sizes because of the scales image, rather than from an external source?

I'm noting that any image taken in warp space could be anything. Information gained from events in the warp is not reliable, because there are basically no physical laws in there, and those that there are change according to the whim of the powers of the Warp.

That could be Cherubael mooning the camera.

Well, rather than going the way of "artist's intent" for now, I'll point out that that is a Chaos fleet emerging from the Warp.

[NecronLord]

The instance I had in mind was in the Maelstrom short story collection. It may be insanity to try to fight in the Warp, but if an Imperial captain can fire torpedoes in the Warp when he has nothing left to lose, I imagine that the distortion cannot be that extreme at short range.

It can be clear as glass one moment, and thick as oil the next, and it can alter what every person sees to make it subjective (various blurbs about what navigators see being partly subjective, and warp-entities being able to make them hallucinate if so inclined - there's an instance of some Slanesshi thing making the navigator in Eye of Terror see a Planopy of his mother's 'soul' being raped in countless perverse ways all around the ship, for example [Edit: Using that scale, a battleship would probably be about half the size of an engorged nipple. Several millimeters in length])

Well, rather than going the way of "artist's intent" for now, I'll point out that that is a Chaos fleet emerging from the Warp.

So... somewhat less weird then, though again, warp energies continue to follow the ships, and optical distortions are still common (I seem to recall this actually being a plot point somewhere - it wasn't possible to determine the number or type of ships immediately).

Of course, it's still irrelevant, as those are not any confirmed class of escort, and the best you can get out of their windows is the suggestion that they might be about twice as long as a jumbo-jet.

[Lord Zentei]

Well, rather than going the way of "artist's intent" for now, I'll point out that that is a Chaos fleet emerging from the Warp.

So... somewhat less weird then, though again, warp energies continue to follow the ships, and optical distortions are still common (I seem to recall this actually being a plot point somewhere - it wasn't possible to determine the number or type of ships immediately).

What instance was this?


Anyway: given that the ships are emerging from the Warp (something I had not considered initially), I will have to shelve further attempts at criticizing the image. Unless another image should appear later (one that represents events in realspace).

[The Yosemite Bear]

I'm just nervous about anybody but ancaris using Kefka as an avvy....

[Lord Zentei]

I'm just nervous about anybody but ancaris using Kefka as an avvy....

Who? There is no user named "ancaris".

[Ghost Rider]

I'm just nervous about anybody but ancaris using Kefka as an avvy....

Who? There is no user named "ancaris".

This particular person

[Lord Zentei]

I'm just nervous about anybody but ancaris using Kefka as an avvy....

Who? There is no user named "ancaris".

This particular person

I'll change it later.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

This is by far one of the strangest debating threads I've ever come across. There's like, 4 unrelated arguments, one of which ended with "I want to be a Hive Fleet." and another, "Hive five 4 pages!"

[Lord Zentei]

This is by far one of the strangest debating threads I've ever come across. There's like, 4 unrelated arguments, one of which ended with "I want to be a Hive Fleet." and another, "Hive five 4 pages!"

That's because it started out in Testing.

As for Shroom Man's comment about hive fleets, well... no connection there, so I guess he must be partaking of his shrooms.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Who? There is no user named "ancaris".

This particular person

I'll change it later.

it's scaryier since this is a BFG thread, and GAA is infact a Games Workshop employee, in the BFG side of the business.

[Imperial Overlord]

Combat in the warp is definitely possible. Those who think otherwise need to reread the beginning parts of Execution Hour, when the Contagion pursues the Macharius into the warp and is eventually destroyed there. Combat is very short ranged by the nature of the warp and the context of those passages implies that aiming is done completely by sensors so that no human need directly observe the warp.

[Connor MacLeod]

Combat in the warp is definitely possible. Those who think otherwise need to reread the beginning parts of Execution Hour, when the Contagion pursues the Macharius into the warp and is eventually destroyed there. Combat is very short ranged by the nature of the warp and the context of those passages implies that aiming is done completely by sensors so that no human need directly observe the warp.

Yep, I remember. In fact, I believe I provided a quote covering that battle in the thread detailing Execution Hour here

[Inquisitor Ryan]

I disagree, though they possess no visible weaponry. (Which is way off) They appear to have the profile of an Infidel class Raider. However they may be a type of Chaos Space Superiority fighter and the vessel in the background could be either a Styx heavy cruiser or an unknown Battleship.

Except for the lack of the distinctive skull-bridge and large vanes sticking up, and the addition massive ventral structures... They've nothing in common with it, at all, save a design lineage.

EDIT:

Really, nothing in common. They look more like the chaos cruisers than escorts.

However the lights visible on the escorts lead me to beleive that they are a variant of the Infidel instead.

The lights on those vessels could indicate a length a few times that of a modern passenger jet. They're not exactly bristling with them.

I have a number of infidel raider models and not one of them came with a skull bridge. all of them appeared to be normal raider bridges which do not possess the skull. The skull raider bridges appear to be rare. (For which i'm grateful as I think the skull bridge looks dumb.)

The Infidels I have though more angular resemble the escorts quite closely.

And as to the lights observe 90% of GW models, i've never seen anything but fighters and bombers with anything like normal sized windows. but we don't know for certain, that seems to be our problem,...

[Connor MacLeod]

the only problem I have with a 75+ km ship flying around really is that it kind of fucks up the firepower and capability scale of Imperium warships that I've been trying to work out based on what I'm learning. Abbadon's Planetkiller has always been something of an upper limit, but IIRC its also been considered the biggest and most terrifying warship out there (meaning it would probably be something like 100+ km long) and something that size probably ought to be chucking out brut eforce planet-destroying level firepower at those scales.

Of course, ,that does assume that that 75 km long thing is a warship (it might be a carrier or something else.. a command ship perhaps.) and that it is designed as a battleship. If those huge vessels exist (and the scaling could be fudged a bit, I should point out - it only ASSUMES those are 1 km long ships Given that it does seem to look like an unknown class of warship as far as i can tell , it could be of any given length.)

Its also possible warships of that scale (again, if they exist, they may not be the 70+ km monstrosity) might also very well be "lost" technology or relics, explaining their rarity. (Altarenatley, since its a chaos ship, it might only be "possible' to build something like that due to the warped physics of chaos, much like the Planet Killer.)

[NecronLord]

Combat in the warp is definitely possible. Those who think otherwise need to reread the beginning parts of Execution Hour, when the Contagion pursues the Macharius into the warp and is eventually destroyed there. Combat is very short ranged by the nature of the warp and the context of those passages implies that aiming is done completely by sensors so that no human need directly observe the warp.

I have it before me now. I has such phrases as "[he] may even be willing to take the battle against us into the warp itself. After all, we have long known that the daemon-things which helm such renegade vessels have warp senses superior even to those of our own Navis Nobilite. There can be no garuntee that we would be able to evade them in the warp as we would any other normal vessel."

It requires a captain who's best described as a raving lunatic, and demon navigators to make it a likely event, and they go out of their way to say that it's garunteed that a normal vessel would be unable to bring them to battle in the warp. And even that particular lunatic chaos captain has only seen a ship destroyed (and not necesserily in action, either) in the warp "several times" in his six hundred years of commanding a chaos cruiser.

I'm not seeing how this contradicts the idea that warp combat is a dangerous course of action, and only sought by the insane (he's a nurgle worshipper, for Dawkins' sake) and even then, in this case only when he has a decisive advantage.

[Lord Zentei]

the only problem I have with a 75+ km ship flying around really is that it kind of fucks up the firepower and capability scale of Imperium warships that I've been trying to work out based on what I'm learning. Abbadon's Planetkiller has always been something of an upper limit, but IIRC its also been considered the biggest and most terrifying warship out there (meaning it would probably be something like 100+ km long) and something that size probably ought to be chucking out brut eforce planet-destroying level firepower at those scales.

Of course, ,that does assume that that 75 km long thing is a warship (it might be a carrier or something else.. a command ship perhaps.) and that it is designed as a battleship. If those huge vessels exist (and the scaling could be fudged a bit, I should point out - it only ASSUMES those are 1 km long ships Given that it does seem to look like an unknown class of warship as far as i can tell , it could be of any given length.)

Its also possible warships of that scale (again, if they exist, they may not be the 70+ km monstrosity) might also very well be "lost" technology or relics, explaining their rarity. (Altarenatley, since its a chaos ship, it might only be "possible' to build something like that due to the warped physics of chaos, much like the Planet Killer.)

Yeah, see with a 75 km length you are talking about a volume equal to 1000 BBs. One. Thousand. Battleships. And Abby's CPK is something I can accept because its unique and because he is the top dog in the EoT most of the time.

I'm halfway inclined to accept NecronLords interpretation that those ships in the foreground are not destroyers or raiders at all or that there is a distorting effect, the former of the two being preferable. Other than that, I see little recourse but to disparage the artist.

[NecronLord]

And as to the lights observe 90% of GW models, i've never seen anything but fighters and bombers with anything like normal sized windows. but we don't know for certain, that seems to be our problem,...

That's a limit from painting the models, and showing them in the small sizes you tend to see them at. If you look at some of the bigger illustrations, like the one of HIMS Divine Right on the battlefleet gothic box, you'll see more realistically scaled windows.

That said, there are some very large windows on Imperial ships, too, being as they are, flying space cathedrals.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm not seeing how this contradicts the idea that warp combat is a dangerous course of action, and only sought by the insane (he's a nurgle worshipper, for Dawkins' sake) and even then, in this case only when he has a decisive advantage.

Did I say it was safe? No, I said it was possible.

[NecronLord]

Did I say it was safe? No, I said it was possible.

No one's ever said otherwise. Insane. Not Impossible. And there's an implication there that with normal navigators it'd be difficult to close to sufficient range and keep steady long enough to do serious damage to an equivalent vessel, which to be honest, is rather more restirictive than I'd have imagined.