Return of the Assclown Chaplains

[Lonestar]

Remember that Chaplain on the Anzio I've been intermittantly posting stories about? He's in the news again...

Washington Post
November 2, 2006
Pg. 3

Military Pressed Over Expressions Of Faith

By Alan Cooperman, Washington Post Staff Writer

The U.S. military is being buffeted by dueling legal claims over religion, with one set of plaintiffs contending that the Pentagon is suppressing evangelical Christianity and another set arguing just the opposite -- that the brass gives the most aggressive evangelicals free rein to proselytize in uniform.

Although Congress intervened this fall, directing the Air Force and Navy to rescind controversial new policies on religion, chaplains on both sides of the issue said the congressional action only muddied the waters.

"Congress took action, but who won? I'm not sure. The only thing I can safely predict is, get ready for new controversies over the place of evangelism in the armed forces," said retired Navy Capt. Gary R. Pollitt, executive director of the Military Chaplains Association, a private, nonprofit group representing chaplains in all the services.

In the latest lawsuit, an evangelical Christian chaplain is charging the Navy with violating his First Amendment rights by forbidding him to pray "in the name of Jesus" at public ceremonies.

Chaplain Gordon J. Klingenschmitt filed the lawsuit Oct. 25 in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia with assistance from the Rutherford Institute, a Charlottesville-based public interest law firm that sued the Pentagon over its policy of requiring U.S. servicewomen stationed in Saudi Arabia to wear a Muslim head covering.

Klingenschmitt's suit alleges that the Navy has effectively established a "civic religion" and is "suppressing [his] Christian faith" by requiring him to offer nonsectarian prayers when speaking to diverse groups of sailors.

He also alleges that his objections to the Navy policy are the real reason that his commanders court-martialed him in September and are now in the process of kicking him out of the Navy. Klingenschmitt was found guilty of disobeying an order by wearing his uniform at a political protest in front of the White House.

"Can the Navy censor a chaplain's prayers, yes or no? That's what my suit is asking," Klingenschmitt said yesterday.

A spokesman for the Navy, Lt. j.g. Karl Lettow, said it does not comment on pending litigation. Navy officials have said that chaplains are free to pray however they wish in voluntary worship services but that the Navy encourages them to "respect the diversity of their audience" when addressing mandatory gatherings.

Meanwhile, a former White House counsel whose lawsuit against the Air Force was dismissed last week said he intends to refile a broader suit, or possibly multiple suits, accusing all the armed services of allowing evangelical Christians to pressure members of other faiths.

U.S. District Judge James A. Parker dismissed the initial suit by Michael L. "Mikey" Weinstein because it was based on alleged incidents of religious bias at the Air Force Academy, but neither Weinstein nor any of his five co-plaintiffs claimed to have suffered from those incidents.

Weinstein, who spent 10 years as an Air Force lawyer and worked in the Reagan White House, said he is now picking the best cases from "a veritable cornucopia of new plaintiffs and accusations."

Some evangelical groups and individuals "believe they have an illimitable right to push their biblical worldview in the military, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, up and down the chain of command," Weinstein said. "Our view is that you certainly have that right at certain times and places that are well established by the U.S. Constitution and our case law. . . . But you can't do it on the job when you're wearing the uniform during the workday."

Reports of aggressive evangelism at the Air Force Academy led the service to issue interim guidelines last year urging commanders to be "sensitive" about sharing their faith and called for a minute of silence or at most a "brief, non-sectarian" prayer at mandatory gatherings.

Evangelical groups complained about the Air Force guidelines and a similar Navy instruction, and House Republicans proposed legislation to guarantee that chaplains can always pray as they wish. In a compromise, that wording was dropped from a defense authorization bill, but a legislative report urged both the Air Force and the Navy to rescind their policies. Congress is expected to hold hearings on the issue next year.

Klingenschmitt's suit alleges that the Navy has effectively established a "civic religion" and is "suppressing [his] Christian faith" by requiring him to offer nonsectarian prayers when speaking to diverse groups of sailors.

Once again, I heard this from a buddy stationed on the Anzio so it's worth only as much as the electrons I'm posting with, but the shitstorm with this guy started when he told the parents of a sailor who got killed in a car wreck that their son was in Hell because he led an unChristianlife, but it was not too late for them.

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, I'd be stunned if there were not army chaplains trying to shove the Bible down guys' throats. Given the number of fundie assholes in the country, any expectation that the service is completely free of them would be absurd.

[kheegster]

Frankly, I'd be stunned if there were not army chaplains trying to shove the Bible down guys' throats. Given the number of fundie assholes in the country, any expectation that the service is completely free of them would be absurd.

I think this is even more justified considering that military personnel are far more likely to be conservative.

[Big Phil]

Frankly, I'd be stunned if there were not army chaplains trying to shove the Bible down guys' throats. Given the number of fundie assholes in the country, any expectation that the service is completely free of them would be absurd.

I think this is even more justified considering that military personnel are far more likely to be conservative.

I think you'd be surprised just how many liberals and Democrats there are in the military. A lot of them are NCO's or Officers with advanced degrees (hmm... experience + maturity + education = more likely to be liberal... I wonder what that means?), rather than 18-20 year old enlistees or fresh out of college ROTC wonders.

[Lonestar]

Frankly, I'd be stunned if there were not army chaplains trying to shove the Bible down guys' throats. Given the number of fundie assholes in the country, any expectation that the service is completely free of them would be absurd.

\

Can't speak to Army Chaplains, this is mostly with regards to Air Force and Navy Chaplains whining that they are being oppressed.

That said, when Chaplains are good, they're great. (i.e. My old Chaplain who was a crazy Ranger-vet who got all the MWR comps upgraded specifically so he could play Doom3 with the sailors) When they're bad, man do they suck (The Chaplain on the BKH last deployment, of whom I've btiched and moaned a fair bit about, And the winner in the article)

[Tsyroc]

I was under the impression that a service member couldn't sue the service while in the service.


Anyway, if this thing blows up too big I wouldn't be surprised if the military just shit canned the whole chaplain thing. Make all the incoming "chaplains" librarians or something else that the chaplains usually do and then stick it to them if they aren't following orders.

That also makes me wonder. If the chaplains can bitch about their religion and not being able to proselytize like they want why can't all service men do the same? If one billet can be assholes about their religion then why can't they all? They can't because it would be shitty for morale, unit cohesiveness and effectiveness. This crybaby chaplain shit should really be getting smacked down.

When you sign up to be in uniform you realized that you are potentially giving up some of your rights, or that if you insist on those rights there will be consequences.

[CmdrWilkens]

I wanted to echo a bit of what Lonestar was saying in regards to the best and the worst. Now this obviously is going to involve Navy Chaplains assigned to Marine units so forget Army and Air Force for the moment. The funniest thing is that the chaplains who really got it, the ones who were worth listening to, didn't preach day and night rather when they talked with Marines it was about life and trying to be a better person without reference to scrpture. The guys who get it and understand the stress that we place troops under realize that throwing scripture around is stupid because its all too metaphorical and open to a million differnt interpretations (before even touching on those who don't believe). These are the guys who figured that speaking just on the human condition and the desire to be better people is the way to reach a guy who just needs a bit of support to deal with the stress in his life.

Conversely the crappiest of chaplains are those that spew bible quotes left and right because they just don't get it, they think that quoting scripture is all the work they need to do and the words themselves have a magical property. Its not just that I think its a retarded violation of ones right to chose their own religion (or a lack thereof) to have these quotes thrown at them, the problem is that the quotes are useless even IF you believe. The fundies and hardcore guys just don't get it, they are used to sheep who blindly follow and when they deal with people who have real problems and real lives they can't help.

[Aaron]

Is this a symptom of America? No Canadian Forces Padre I've met or heard of is like this.

[Wicked Pilot]

Frankly, I'd be stunned if there were not army chaplains trying to shove the Bible down guys' throats. Given the number of fundie assholes in the country, any expectation that the service is completely free of them would be absurd.

Every chaplain I've met is as opposite a fundamentalist you can get and still be a Christian.

I think this is even more justified considering that military personnel are far more likely to be conservative.

That's especially true in terms of nationalism and foreign policy matters, but as religious and social issues go it's been my experience that military people are more moderate that what most would expect. Age is probably the biggest factor in this as you average enlisted man is in his twenties. Titties and beer, not the Bible and cross, are the cornerstone of your mordern US fighting man's soul.

[Medic]

Frankly, I'd be stunned if there were not army chaplains trying to shove the Bible down guys' throats. Given the number of fundie assholes in the country, any expectation that the service is completely free of them would be absurd.

Every chaplain I've met is as opposite a fundamentalist you can get and still be a Christian.

I think this is even more justified considering that military personnel are far more likely to be conservative.

That's especially true in terms of nationalism and foreign policy matters, but as religious and social issues go it's been my experience that military people are more moderate that what most would expect. Age is probably the biggest factor in this as you average enlisted man is in his twenties. Titties and beer, not the Bible and cross, are the cornerstone of your mordern US fighting man's soul.

Can't say I've seen different things in the Army. I didn't get to know my BCT or Korean Chaplains, but in this unit, we lost a great Chaplain who is described perfectly by my emphasis of Pilot's post. The guy's views on sex weren't even: good AS LONG as it's within marriage! They were: sex is important in any physical relationship -- he was personable, had a good sense of humor, and you could reach him 24/7.

The worst chaplain we had, who replaced that guy [he's gone now], wasn't so because of religious convictions but because he was a shitbag in his duties. Don't call this guy at 4 in the morning, he'll tell you to call back at 0900 at the beginning of the workday. Fucking piece of shit. I'm sorry, but the fact is, a Chaplain's duty's DO include being on call 24/7 -- when a unit gets orders to deploy a Chaplain is gonna be inundated with couples coming in for all sorts of relationship reasons and this guy wasn't there for them.

I've noticed in fact some officers like my old Battalion Commander [BN CDR] will all but trip over themselves trying to take God out of their briefs. We had a "duty day with god" in 1st Brigades canceled late 2005 deployment, it was really just a discussion on deployment stresses and how to cope with long distance relationships, but the BN CDR spent a good 3 minutes emphasizing "God has nothing to do with it," "he only says God once or twice" and "I went to it yesterday and it's really not religious at all."

Just because evangelical Christianity is on the rise though, I'm not %100 surprised this guy slipped through the cracks, and that's probably what it is. Based on my own and other Mess observations, the military doesn't seem to want to hire a fire and brimstone fuck gays and fuck non-Christians type Chaplain. A good Chaplain is an indispensable asset especially to a high-stress combat arms unit and a fundamentalist isn't going to function how an armed services Chaplain ideally should.

"civic religion" and is "suppressing [his] Christian faith"

That's nearly exactly how the good Chaplain's I've seen rolled, they did not thump the bible. In short, they're less Men-of-God than they are counselors.

Don't get me started on Chaplain's assistants though.

[K. A. Pital]

Chaplains... they serve what function exactly? Weird of a secular state to have Army Chaplains, is it not?

[Darth Wong]

Chaplains... they serve what function exactly? Weird of a secular state to have Army Chaplains, is it not?

They should rename them "counselors" and get rid of the whole fucking "chaplain" title entirely.

[Lord Zentei]

Weird of a secular state to have Army Chaplains, is it not?

You evil commie liberal!!

The US is not a secular state!! Its principles are based on God given truths and the Bible!! The US Constitution is a divinely inspired document!! The First Amendment to the Constitution speaks of a "wall of seperation" but that's a one way seperation, it does not mean that government should not be religious!! The Founding Fathers were all devout Christians who would be apalled at the notion of a "secular state" in America!![/Fundie]

There are people who seriously beleive all of this. And they vote.

[K. A. Pital]

Oh god... I understood it's sarcasm, but for a moment I got really amazed by the ferocity of the attack.

But what else can I say, there's some similar stuff going on now in Russia. The Othrodox popes make deals with the government because the popes are obscenely rich from privatizng land (something which if done by others would've been considered a criminal act of territory seizure)... We were hanging by a thread when the Popes tried to lobby "Foundations of Othrodox Culture" as a subject to be taught in public schools. Thanks to Putin who reinforced the position of the Government that Russia is a secular multinational state...

[Lord Zentei]

Oh god... I understood it's sarcasm, but for a moment I got really amazed by the ferocity of the attack.

It wouldn't be an accurate parody otherwise.

And good for Putin on the secular state issue.

On IP's point in the other thread: perhaps secularism (as opposed to intellectualism) has become suspect amongst certain groups as a result of the Soviet experiment?

[K. A. Pital]

On IP's point in the other thread: perhaps secularism (as opposed to intellectualism) has become suspect amongst certain groups as a result of the Soviet experiment?

Perhaps. But this is certainly a wrong perception. Most good, or, say, long-term positive results in the USSR were produced under and because of the secular doctrine, while most wrong and bad stems from the quasi-religious, cultic status and perception of communist dogmae and and individual personalities.

So while people technically should blame the cultic and illogical, phenomena that underline the (quasi-)religious, they for some reason scapegoat secularism and intellectualism. IMHO, that's just stupid scapegoating and yet another proof of how irrational people are.

[Lord Zentei]

On IP's point in the other thread: perhaps secularism (as opposed to intellectualism) has become suspect amongst certain groups as a result of the Soviet experiment?

Perhaps. But this is certainly a wrong perception. Most good, or, say, long-term positive results in the USSR were produced under and because of the secular doctrine, while most wrong and bad stems from the quasi-religious, cultic status and perception of communist dogmae and and individual personalities.

So while people technically should blame the cultic and illogical, phenomena that underline the (quasi-)religious, they for some reason scapegoat secularism and intellectualism. IMHO, that's just stupid scapegoating and yet another proof of how irrational people are.

Probably so. The possibility that such perceptions can cause damage is, alas, all too real, however.

[CmdrWilkens]

Chaplains... they serve what function exactly? Weird of a secular state to have Army Chaplains, is it not?

They should rename them "counselors" and get rid of the whole fucking "chaplain" title entirely.

Excepting that entry requires being a ordained minister of a recognized faith that and its a title the guys have held forever. Let the chaplains be chaplains and not give them the same title as the guy in the middle school who fails at giving the birds and bess speech every other wednesday.