common ailments of atheists?

[Pablo Sanchez]

see above URL for some account of historical fact backing up prophecy.. there were specific prophecies that seem to validate christianity.

The key word is "seem." The act of back-fitting prophecies to match history is intellectually dishonest at the highest level. Tell me ONE TIME in which someone took a prophecy BEFORE the event occurred, and decoded it to find out what was going to happen. There's a reason that most prophecies are vague; its so that the prophet (or his supporters even later on) can always say "that's what I meant, actually."

[ShAoLiN]

(No, the Bible, as grossly reinterpreted and distorted by modern liberal Christians promotes a strong sense of morality. The Bible, per se, is a long list of grossly immoral acts, many of which were condoned, actively encouraged, or even carried out by God! Thrown in amongst all of this is a certain amount of good moral reasoning, which is almost exactly the stuff which is not unique to Christianity!)

you do know that because people have free will, and because of the limitations of what they can perceive, or comprehend.. that mistakes are bound to happen? the significance of those "immoral acts," is that people might learn from them.. do you realize how difficult it is, to get people to change, to convince them the error of their ways? How difficult was it getting people to conceive of the fact the Earth was round? Or that we weren't at the center of the universe?

Point - There is no way, God could have forced men to give up their ways without forcefully manipulating them, or taking away free will. so, compromise.. you need to read it with an open mind.

(Are there people out there who are lazy and immoral, because they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves? Certainly. But you are tring to establish a correlation between immorality and atheism which simply does not exist . )


no, my correlation is more along the lines that.. like you ppl are so fond of judging christians as misguided individuals who blindly follow religion.. because its easier, the same argument could be made concerning atheists... that its easier to cover your eyes and ears and blindly proclaim there is no God, because its so much more convenient for you.


( In other words, a simple aerodynamic model says bumblebees can't fly. But they do fly. So we need a better model. Of course, it's hardly seen as a major questions demanding an immediate answer, so there aren't that many people trying to figure it out.)

point was science is limited, it is not the know-all, end-all.. that some people believe..

(And as for the DNA thing. . . umm, you do know that the entire point of quoting a percentage is to make the absolute magnitude of the numbers irrelevant, don't you? We share 98% of our genome with chimpanzees. The number of individual differences that make up that 2% difference (be it 2 or 2 billion) is irrelevant.)


no its not.. a geneticist who favors evolutionary theory might cite a mere 10% difference to attempt to back up.. his point of view that genes are commplace things, and that human evolution is nothing special.. 10% looks decidedly smaller than.. 283438423482374276347623764324 or some huge number.. For the most part, in my opinion scientists/geneticists love to rant on about what they're sure about, rather than what they aren't sure about.. or dont know. with science being limited there's a good chance they could be wrong.


(Yeah, and the fact that God condones and even encourages all of this says good things about him as a source of morality, too.

Look, does the Bible talk about real people and real events? Yes, it does - we have independent records showing that (such as a certain Nazarene being put to death for sedition). Does that change the fact that the Bible is primarily mythology, written by people out to achieve a certain agenda (such as, oh, I don't know, maybe gaining and keeping converts to their faith?)


i see statements but no facts.. put it this way.. if christianity had some agenda, and Jesus was the center of it, do you think he would allow himself to be nailed to a cross? think man.

[ShAoLiN]

(Ah, interesting that you should refer to 'this country' and assume everyone will know what you mean. Your location is 'classified', remember? Or did you perhaps forget this is an international board, my American friend? )

where i live is irrelevant.

(Anyway, in general, it was modern humanist morality that acted to improve the morals of Christianity, not the other way around. )

you do know that many morals are derived from christianity dont you?

(Oh, and you were doing so well, too.

If you'd just left it at that first paragraph, you might even have got away with it. Let's juxtapose a couple of sentences from above (the original is still there, so no moaning about 'quotes-out-of-context' please)

"What I said - if you'd bother to read, is that its easier to take the path of self-indulgence and convenience as opposed to one of morality"
"All I did is point out a few scant observations concerning atheists"

Ooops. I believe you just said that you think atheists in general are self-indulgent and choose their own convenience over morality.

And you wonder how anyone could possibly take offense.

Oh dear, perhaps I was mistaken. Maybe there isn't any hope for you, after all.)


by the same token, christians could be offended by ppl inferring that they're all brain-washed, lackeys.. despite what you might think, there are many people who "SEEM," to dislike christianity solely based on the fact that they would like nothing more than to dispose of all morality, and indulge themselves..... in whatever the 'ell they want. if you're offended by this.. dont read, but judging by the accusations and responses of some of you, perhaps I struck a nerve?

(The problem is that it isn't. Psychologically, it's much easier to conform, as you apparently do. I, myself, have considered that there is a God out there. I've also considered the existence of Nirvana, the Hindu Pantheon, the Easter Bunny etc. And I decided to give each of them the exact same amount of thought: none. )

thats based on the assumption, that anyone who is a christian is a conformist.. which is prejudice... and inaccurate. if you were so convinced that all Gods were bs, you'd have no hesitation against thinking about Nirvana or any of it.. maybe your decision to avoid such things, is based on fear of what you might learn.

(You are the one who professes Biblical inerrancy. Then you must believe that there are gigantic storehouses for hail up in the sky. )

either a god exists or he doesn't.. if he does exist and he created everything, do you think some hail is beyond his power?


(Indeed. We see this in Africa, where the Catholic Church... wait a minute. Well then what about the Ku Klux Klan, who is a secular... no, wait, they're not. But the Nazi Party were at least... oh, pardon me for forgetting the fact that they were pro-Christian.)

that's........... really prejudice against christians.. do you believe that all muslims are accountable for the actions of Bin Laden? if not, then how can you hold all christians accountable for the actions of a ppl who claim to be christians, but clearly aren't.

(Oh, yes, those "fewls". Damn them for being absolutely correct. You haven't proven them wrong at all. If a ten percent difference is about a billion differences or ten has no relevance at all to the rational person; it's still a ten percent difference. But don't feel left out just because you can't understand what I'm saying. )

i hear you loud and clear.. maybe you just cant comprehend understatement.. or that 10% would be better suited to convince people, that the human genome isn't all that different from another animals.. then a huge number.. of individual differences.

(It tells us that God is a mass murderer, a genocidal tyrant, and that a truly moral person would find it difficult to choose between living with God and going to Hell.)

in what way? cite facts.

(I'm the one indulging myself? By being an atheist, I'm admitting that I have no immortal soul, and that my existence as a thinking being ceases forever at my death. This is not an easy thing to think about, and much harder than just saying "God will save me." )

not at all.. since most atheists dont believe in an afterlife. maybe its easier to say: "There is no God, so I do whatever I want to, since im not accountable to anyone."

(You know ShAoLiN I used to be a born again christian I hated athiests, gays(yes Mr. Bean feel free to laugh at the irony of that statement) , women who wore pants, and politicians for taking prayer out of schools. And then I started to think for myself, I then realized that god is a crock of shit(this was when I was about 13) I started to toss out the window everything I had been taught from birth and I am a better person for it. So been there, done that.)


christians arent supposed to hate anyone.. maybe you misunderstood eh?


(The key word is "seem." The act of back-fitting prophecies to match history is intellectually dishonest at the highest level. Tell me ONE TIME in which someone took a prophecy BEFORE the event occurred, and decoded it to find out what was going to happen. There's a reason that most prophecies are vague; its so that the prophet (or his supporters even later on) can always say "that's what I meant, actually.")


here's 1..

Norman Geisler explains Ezekiel's prediction that the city of Tyre "would be destroyed and its ruins cast into the sea (26:2). This provoked scoffing because, when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Tyre, he left the ruins right where they fell--on the land. But 200 years later, Alexander the Great attacked Tyre and the inhabitants withdrew to an island just off the coast for safety. In order to reach them, Alexander threw all of the debris, stones, timbers, dust, and everything else, into the sea to build a causeway that would reach the island." [6] If events so far in the future can be accurately predicted, certainly the events of the past have been accurately recorded!

for reference i direct you to:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/two.html

[Mr Bean]

Here's Wong's Page on the Matter
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... ndex.shtml

Now then as for what you said

you do know that many morals are derived from christianity dont you?

Acutal they are not, Those Morals your speaking of where around before the first Jew's called themseleves Jew's infact many of the lessons and even some examples in the Bible come DIRECTLY from Pagen Religions, If your a Islamic thats perfectly fine(Ref Koran, Mohammed's Speach in the Market) if your a Christian is a woopsi of trying to explain it

by the same token, christians could be offended by ppl inferring that they're all brain-washed, lackeys.. despite what you might think, there are many people who "SEEM," to dislike christianity solely based on the fact that they would like nothing more than to dispose of all morality, and indulge themselves..... in whatever the 'ell they want. if you're offended by this.. dont read, but judging by the accusations and responses of some of you, perhaps I struck a nerve?

Christians could and they can be offend by people calling them brain washed Lackys or whatnot the problem is ShAoLiN that when 2/3 of the Christians leaders refer to Atheists as Saddly misguided and some other Refer to them As Heathens who should be burned at the stake along with the Pagens and the Hertics you get the problem

Never has there been a case in history of a bunch of Athests Banding togther and lyching somone for them beliving in a God, Meanwhile flip it around and. Well have I made my point?

thats based on the assumption, that anyone who is a christian is a conformist..

Because you have to be, To be a Chrisitan (A True one as the Fundmentlists call it) You should to exactly as the good book commands
Otherwise...

------------------------------------
But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it.
-------------------------------------
Leviticus 26:14-16

Have you ever worked on a Sunday?
------------------------------------------------
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
-----------------------------------------------
Exodus 31:15

that's........... really prejudice against christians.. do you believe that all muslims are accountable for the actions of Bin Laden? if not, then how can you hold all christians accountable for the actions of a ppl who claim to be christians, but clearly aren't.

Because unlike the Koran The Bible Provides for this.

Then they asked, "Which one of the tribes of Israel failed to assemble before the LORD at Mizpah?" They discovered that no one from Jabesh Gilead had come to the camp for the assembly. For when they counted the people, they found that none of the people of Jabesh Gilead were there. So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children

Judges 21:8-10

When they sent men to spy out Bethel, the spies saw a man coming out of the city and they said to him, "Show us how to get into the city and we will see that you are treated well." So he showed them, and they put the city to the sword but spared the man and his whole family.

Judges 1:23-25

That day Joshua took Makkedah. He put the city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it. He left no survivors. And he did to the king of Makkedah as he had done to the king of Jericho.
Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it. The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel's hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.
Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Libnah to Lachish; he took up positions against it and attacked it. The LORD handed Lachish over to Israel, and Joshua took it on the second day. The city and everyone in it he put to the sword, just as he had done to Libnah. Meanwhile, Horam king of Gezer had come up to help Lachish, but Joshua defeated him and his army--until no survivors were left.
Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon; they took up positions against it and attacked it. They captured it that same day and put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it, just as they had done to Lachish.


So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Joshua 10:28-40

In one day Pekah son of Remaliah killed a hundred and twenty thousand soldiers in Judah--because Judah had forsaken the LORD, the God of their fathers.

Chronicles 28:6



Frankly the Bible is Filled with this, Whenever Christian Conquere a City, They more than Likley are to PUT EVERYONE TO DEATH IN IT

Islam on the other hand, When Mohammed Conqured Mecca he did not as the Christians before him had done kill everoyne, Rather he spared the town

Does anyone Complain about Interance Towards Hitler?
Hitler never got anywhere near what the Christian Religion has done

Yes thats right I'm comparing Hitler with Christianity, Because?
He was a Christian

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... tler.shtml


And because most people should read the page a forum is attacthed to

The Morality Page with Refrances to good old Lau Tzu the man who proscripted A near exact copy of Christian Moral Codes, Five hundred years before they did, In an entirely seperat country
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... lity.shtml

[Nova Andromeda]

--ShAoLiN is an unrepentant irrational bigot. I'm not even going to bother replying to the little bitch. He is only worthy of our contempt, scorn, and derision. He should be mocked, spit on, and ridiculed. He should not be indulged by actually discussing his topic rationally!

SCREW ShAoLiN

[Zoink]

not at all.. since most atheists dont believe in an afterlife. maybe its easier to say: "There is no God, so I do whatever I want to, since im not accountable to anyone."

Considering that there are a large number of athiests in the world.... can you show me that your statement isn't complete BS... by giving me evidence that athiests "do whatever they want to"???

My actions are accountable to the rest of society, as are yours.

[AdmiralKanos]

This "Shaolin" moron obviously believes that he is not accountable to human society, but rather, he should only hold himself accountable to a deity whose wishes he gets to define himself, through selective and inconsistent interpretation of ancient mythologies.

[Mr. B]

you do know that many morals are derived from christianity dont you?

Most of the stories, myths, and morals can all be traced back to Sumeria, Babylon, and Egypt. It is a myth that all morals are derived from Christianity.

[lgot]

He could have been just ok if he just wanted to point out that a generalization about religious people is bad or that we can find atheists with prejudice, bigotony etc - since its a human trait, we would find - but he had to prove this point is wrong by doing this same thing he classify as a mistake and worse, disrespectful he started to come in a forum which owner clearly states his ideology against religious preaching to do the same thing (and to shame to a christian, he does it badly). That would be the same thing if Wong started to wake every sunday to go to a church to argue with people there about how science is superior to religion. He does not not(at least i suppose and hope so). He is much more ethic than the one who shows a book to support some morality...

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

nah.. the meaning was more along the lines of, the Bible promotes a strong sense of morality which most people would rather ignore, in favor of indulging themself. thus becoming an atheist is more convenient. while this might not be true in your case, or anyone who posts here, it does seem to be true.

A form of morality sure, but not one that would find much favour in western democratic nations. Would this form of morality be the smiting of jericho? including innocent, unarmed, men, woman and children? some morality that, but hey, thats ok right? they were Isralites so that absolves them of mass murder cause they are Gods chosen people?.
The way you refer to morality, as if atheists, or non christians, veiws is somehow wrong, is quite offensive. Is that what you are sugesting?, that not beliving in gods or deigtys, and their supposed teachings, is wrong?.
Whom do you think you are to foister your belifs on another?
Democratic nations have a number of principles that all people, regardless of religeion, or race, have these rights, the freedom of speech, assembly, freedom from arbitary arrest etc. What you say above is a affront to the morality of freedom. Freedom to live our lives as we ourselfs choose to do, so long as we harm no other in so doing.

unbelievable.. the way you can take 2 + 2 and have it equal 83837259. you said christian morality isn't one that would find favor in western democratic nations. This country was founded largely on christianity, like it or not. So, how can it not find favor?

What country would that be? I live in New Zealand. I should have been more specific, I was of cource refering to old Testement, the church sanctioned burning of witches, the crusades, the sacking of south America, and lets not forget the those heretical protestants! Yeah soem morality eh?

Jericho's significance.. has exactly what to do with a religion that has "thou shalt not kill," as one of its central themes?

Jericho's destruction was ordered by god, the christian god as it happens.

I never said anything about other morals being wrong.. What I said - if you'd bother to read, is that its easier to take the path of self-indulgence and convenience as opposed to one of morality.

So Atheists have no morals huh? that is what you are inffering.

In what way is it an affront to freedom? All I did is point out a few scant observations concerning atheists, and you accuse me of all this bs.

Must I really point out the history of the christain faith to you? You seem to have a opinion that atheists lead a life of "self indulgence and conveniance as opposed to one of morality" Are you suggesting thats Ahtesits have no morals? that atheists lead lives of decadent indulgence of every whim?
What would you have them do, and why? Answer that and we shall see where 'affront to freedom comes from'.

[Durandal]

By the way, I love the title of this thread. "Ailments." As if there's something wrong with atheists. Not even that. We're all suffering from a disease! Yes, the disease of free thought! Better watch out! It's airborne and highly contagious! Symptoms of having Free Thought may include a happier life, less guilt and the cessation of worshipping fairy tale characters.

I'm going to venture a guess and say that Shaolin is Catholic. The Church seems to have no problem labeling behaviors in people that it doesn't like as "diseases." In the Catechism, for example, homosexuality is described as a "condition."

[Master of Ossus]

nah.. what about various prophecies that have come true? Tyre.. The Fall of Israel. History validates the Bible. like the other dood, you've got your statements but lack the facts to back them up. Suffice it to say, many of the things people interpret as half-truths or second-hand testimony are passages taken out of context, or interpreted in such a way that usually is inaccurate.

That's crap. The Bible has been demonstrated to tell some stories that are historically accurate (or, at least, have historical parallels), but the vast majority of stories told in the Bible appear to be complete fabrications, or are unverifiable. Also, the Bible was written by many different authors and was altered many times. At one time, Europeans would even imprison and kill people for translating Bibles from Hebrew instead of the "correct" Greek and Latin translations of the original Hebrew bible. Also, the Bible's accuracy is little better than any contemporary documents, including most Greco-Roman legends.

nah.. the meaning was more along the lines of, the Bible promotes a strong sense of morality which most people would rather ignore, in favor of indulging themself. thus becoming an atheist is more convenient. while this might not be true in your case, or anyone who posts here, it does seem to be true.

So you can't be a moral person without believing in God?

people like me? you dont even know me. dont stereotype

Who's stereotyping?

science is biased - in my opinion. over-rated. "science," can't even explain aerodynamically, how a bee flies. Also, geneticists and other scientists often try to manipulate facts to support their own point of view. Like those fewls that try to convince us there is only 10% difference in DNA of a human from a cow or something.. They ignore the fact that DNA strands - being as long as they are.. 10% difference could be like.. 283834283242342343420943243232043 differences. and people buy it.

Outright lie. Science can explain how bees fly, they have long since figured that out. You just never bothed to follow science well enough to figure that out. When they say that only ten percent genetics separates us from bovines, they are trying to support the theory of evolution by saying that cows are in the mammalian family. Ten percent is very significant, but it is a far smaller percentage than what separates us from, say, lizards. I have absolutely NO idea what you are trying to tell us here. Cows are fairly similar to us. Ten percent is a big difference, but not that big, genetically. I really don't see why you object to this, except that you are an anti-scientific bigot, and probably a religious zealot. BTW, science is not more biased than religious bigots like you. AND you mispelled "classified."

[ShAoLiN]

(Acutal they are not, Those Morals your speaking of where around before the first Jew's called themseleves Jew's infact many of the lessons and even some examples in the Bible come DIRECTLY from Pagen Religions, If your a Islamic thats perfectly fine(Ref Koran, Mohammed's Speach in the Market) if your a Christian is a woopsi of trying to explain it )

Actually, what you're stating is a 'myth.' The pagans OBVIOUSLY did not have morals against tattoos, homosexuality, and other things.. that ARE definitely not derived from pagan beliefs..


(Christians could and they can be offend by people calling them brain washed Lackys or whatnot the problem is ShAoLiN that when 2/3 of the Christians leaders refer to Atheists as Saddly misguided and some other Refer to them As Heathens who should be burned at the stake along with the Pagens and the Hertics you get the problem)

hyperbole...

(Never has there been a case in history of a bunch of Athests Banding togther and lyching somone for them beliving in a God, Meanwhile flip it around and. Well have I made my point?)

its simple.... the bible doesnt say to lynch non-christians or anyone else.. so if ppl do it, they arent really christians. despite what you might want to believe, or blame on us.

(Because you have to be, To be a Chrisitan (A True one as the Fundmentlists call it) You should to exactly as the good book commands
Otherwise...)

thats quoted out of context.. us being "Christians," NT, is what applies to us, moreso than OT.. you need to understand that different times = different laws, for different people.. OT morals tend towards the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, method.. NT is more forgiveness.. if you were truly interested in the truth.. id think youd note that distinction, instead of straining yourself trying to find loopholes in the context. i question your credibility, and motivations..


(Because unlike the Koran The Bible Provides for this. )

Wrong again.. Nowhere does the Koran say to assault the civilians of your enemies. I know of one quote in there that goes something like.. "Do not be the agressor, yet if an enemy is an agressor to you, strike them down" once more you take that completely out of context, to satisfy your own beliefs..


(Frankly the Bible is Filled with this, Whenever Christian Conquere a City, They more than Likley are to PUT EVERYONE TO DEATH IN IT)

different laws for a different age..

(Islam on the other hand, When Mohammed Conqured Mecca he did not as the Christians before him had done kill everoyne, Rather he spared the town)

did osama spare anyone on 9/11? huh? you'd bend your own 'morals,' to the point where they're sticking you in the ass.



(Does anyone Complain about Interance Towards Hitler?
Hitler never got anywhere near what the Christian Religion has done.)


hitler was a christian.. in the way that timothy mcveigh was an american.. none of christianity's teachings preach the torturing of jews, or any of the whack bs that hitler was into.. it seems many of you want so bad to see hitler as a christian, that you only see the facts that support your own beliefs.

[Stravo]

Actually, what you're stating is a 'myth.' The pagans OBVIOUSLY did not have morals against tattoos, homosexuality, and other things.. that ARE definitely not derived from pagan beliefs..

SO, pagans are godless freaks that have no moral or ethical code...The Ancient Babolonians wrote the first codafied laws in HISTORY and guess what - No killing No Stealing was among those laws.....millennia before christainty was a THOUGHT in anyone's minds. Those damned pagans!! They brought us writing, Iron Making, weaving, language, books, DAMN them to hell....C'mon, just because they don't believe in Jesus the savior does not mean that they are a horde of barbarians....Christains were once the pagsn in Rome my friend.


For ONCE I'd like one of my fellow Christians to pick up a GODAMNED History book to read. Newsflash: the Bible is NOT history.

thats quoted out of context.. us being "Christians," NT, is what applies to us, moreso than OT.. you need to understand that different times = different laws, for different people.. OT morals tend towards the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, method.. NT is more forgiveness.. if you were truly interested in the truth.. id think youd note that distinction, instead of straining yourself trying to find loopholes in the context. i question your credibility, and motivations..

SO, Christain morals EVOLVE is that it?? It was Ok to be Christain and kill your fellow man back in 1099 (Crusades in case you need a clue) BUT not now, not in the good ole 21st Century because morality has evolved....

Morality should NOT evolve, it was ALWAYS evil to kill another human being whether you were a neotlithic warrior roaming the plains of europe, a knight on Crusade or a modern day person.

Different laws for different times is a VERY cowardly way to squirm (maybe scurrying like a rat is a better metaphor) out of the uncomfortable position of defending Christianity's record on morality through the ages.

Islam on the other hand, When Mohammed Conqured Mecca he did not as the Christians before him had done kill everoyne, Rather he spared the town)

did osama spare anyone on 9/11? huh? you'd bend your own 'morals,' to the point where they're sticking you in the ass.

OK, WTF?! WHAT does 9/11 have to do with the point about Islam's record on merciful captures of cities in the early ages. The fact that the Jewish community under Abbasid rule in Iberia (SPAIN) flourished up until the CATHLOIC kings and Queens wrested control from the Muslims then promptly kicked the Jews out of Spain and siced the Inquisition on the rest?? Don't give me the different laws and different times BULLSHIT....Its WRONG NO MATTER WHEN IT IS DONE ESPECIALLY IF YOUR CHRISTIAN

it seems many of you want so bad to see hitler as a christian, that you only see the facts that support your own beliefs.

Only as badly as you want to see pagans as homosexuals, tattooed freaks who have no morals.....

[Master of Ossus]

(Never has there been a case in history of a bunch of Athests Banding togther and lyching somone for them beliving in a God, Meanwhile flip it around and. Well have I made my point?)

its simple.... the bible doesnt say to lynch non-christians or anyone else.. so if ppl do it, they arent really christians. despite what you might want to believe, or blame on us.

Oh, I see, Pope Urban the Second wasn't a Christian. YOU are being ethnocentric, here. You are ignoring other people's beliefs in determining who is a Christian and who is not. That is heinously immoral and offensive to many people. BTW, you are also judging people based on their beliefs. You are also imposing your beliefs on them. That is immoral, by Christian standards, I believe. You are a hypocrite.

(Because unlike the Koran The Bible Provides for this. )

Wrong again.. Nowhere does the Koran say to assault the civilians of your enemies. I know of one quote in there that goes something like.. "Do not be the agressor, yet if an enemy is an agressor to you, strike them down" once more you take that completely out of context, to satisfy your own beliefs..

Of course not. The Bible does not say to have Crusades against Muslims and pogroms against Jews, but we saw that happen. Incidentally, do you guys know why there were so many Jews in the Middle East during WWII? It's because the Christian countries refused to accept them. They were persecuted horribly from the Middle Ages (Spanish Inquisition was PART of that, but not the only part), on through WWII, when Europe refused to take them.

(Frankly the Bible is Filled with this, Whenever Christian Conquere a City, They more than Likley are to PUT EVERYONE TO DEATH IN IT)

different laws for a different age..

Oh, I see, so in spite of the fact that you support a literal interpretation of the Bible, it can mean different things in different ages. Or were those people Christians because they were lynching people? BTW, God himself often joined in the slaughter. Should we do that in Afghanistan because God said so?

(Islam on the other hand, When Mohammed Conqured Mecca he did not as the Christians before him had done kill everoyne, Rather he spared the town)

did osama spare anyone on 9/11? huh? you'd bend your own 'morals,' to the point where they're sticking you in the ass.

No, bin Laden bends moral laws, as well as the Koran. When Christians did it by sacking the cities, you dismissed it as a different set of laws for a different age, but guess what? Osama is still using the Koran as a legal document, as it was first written to be. You have a whole double-standard thing, going here. It is becoming disturbing.

(Does anyone Complain about Interance Towards Hitler?
Hitler never got anywhere near what the Christian Religion has done.)


hitler was a christian.. in the way that timothy mcveigh was an american.. none of christianity's teachings preach the torturing of jews, or any of the whack bs that hitler was into.. it seems many of you want so bad to see hitler as a christian, that you only see the facts that support your own beliefs.

So why was the Church silent during the Holocaust? Why didn't it try to get other countries involved in helping the Jews, even though it knew (as the US did) what was going on inside of Germany?

[Antediluvian]

(Acutal they are not, Those Morals your speaking of where around before the first Jew's called themseleves Jew's infact many of the lessons and even some examples in the Bible come DIRECTLY from Pagen Religions, If your a Islamic thats perfectly fine(Ref Koran, Mohammed's Speach in the Market) if your a Christian is a woopsi of trying to explain it )

Actually, what you're stating is a 'myth.' The pagans OBVIOUSLY did not have morals against tattoos, homosexuality, and other things.. that ARE definitely not derived from pagan beliefs..


(Christians could and they can be offend by people calling them brain washed Lackys or whatnot the problem is ShAoLiN that when 2/3 of the Christians leaders refer to Atheists as Saddly misguided and some other Refer to them As Heathens who should be burned at the stake along with the Pagens and the Hertics you get the problem)

hyperbole...

(Never has there been a case in history of a bunch of Athests Banding togther and lyching somone for them beliving in a God, Meanwhile flip it around and. Well have I made my point?)

its simple.... the bible doesnt say to lynch non-christians or anyone else.. so if ppl do it, they arent really christians. despite what you might want to believe, or blame on us.

(Because you have to be, To be a Chrisitan (A True one as the Fundmentlists call it) You should to exactly as the good book commands
Otherwise...)

thats quoted out of context.. us being "Christians," NT, is what applies to us, moreso than OT.. you need to understand that different times = different laws, for different people.. OT morals tend towards the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, method.. NT is more forgiveness.. if you were truly interested in the truth.. id think youd note that distinction, instead of straining yourself trying to find loopholes in the context. i question your credibility, and motivations..


(Because unlike the Koran The Bible Provides for this. )

Wrong again.. Nowhere does the Koran say to assault the civilians of your enemies. I know of one quote in there that goes something like.. "Do not be the agressor, yet if an enemy is an agressor to you, strike them down" once more you take that completely out of context, to satisfy your own beliefs..


(Frankly the Bible is Filled with this, Whenever Christian Conquere a City, They more than Likley are to PUT EVERYONE TO DEATH IN IT)

different laws for a different age..

(Islam on the other hand, When Mohammed Conqured Mecca he did not as the Christians before him had done kill everoyne, Rather he spared the town)

did osama spare anyone on 9/11? huh? you'd bend your own 'morals,' to the point where they're sticking you in the ass.



(Does anyone Complain about Interance Towards Hitler?
Hitler never got anywhere near what the Christian Religion has done.)


hitler was a christian.. in the way that timothy mcveigh was an american.. none of christianity's teachings preach the torturing of jews, or any of the whack bs that hitler was into.. it seems many of you want so bad to see hitler as a christian, that you only see the facts that support your own beliefs.

Pagans: I afraid it's fact. People have developed morals long before Christianity.

Hyperbole: A one word response doesn't refute anything. You must explain why it's hyperbole.

Simple: The Bible contradicts itself so much, who knows what it really endorses? And the people who were responsible for such things were Christian. Or I should say, Christian Fundies.

Quoted: But the OT is never apologized for in the Bible, and it's atrocities remain, regardless of it's applicability. In fact, Jesus quoted the OT, he seemed to think it still had value. And the NT isn't much better. No real atrocities, but plenty of racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious discrimination.

Koran: But it does say kill the infidels.

Different laws: Cop-out. You simply are trying to get out of defending the atrocities of past believers.

Osama: You seem to be contradicting yourself. First you defend the Koran, and then bash it. Make up your mind.

Hitler: Sorry. All evidence points to Hitler being a Christian. He was even endorsed by the Catholic Church of the time.A

[ShAoLiN]

(--ShAoLiN is an unrepentant irrational bigot. I'm not even going to bother replying to the little bitch. He is only worthy of our contempt, scorn, and derision. He should be mocked, spit on, and ridiculed. He should not be indulged by actually discussing his topic rationally!)

lol, you replied when you clicked the submit button.. genius.


(Considering that there are a large number of athiests in the world.... can you show me that your statement isn't complete BS... by giving me evidence that athiests "do whatever they want to"???

My actions are accountable to the rest of society, as are yours.)


history shows that generally most nations, or empires are founded on a strict moral code.. descendant generations tend to turn away from their heritage.. or the things that got them to where they were in the first place.. for example Rome in its later years, turned into an indulgent race of people.. i suppose i could prove that atheists place their own desires or intents above what might be best at time, just by some of the posts on this board.. or, ppl - who are "atheists," would rather post lame commentary - sounding EXACTLY like the christians they claim to dislike.. being just as prejudice, and ignorant as they claim christians are...


yeah.. we're all accountable to society.. but, remember that its possible for society to go bad, if we allow it to happen.


(This "Shaolin" moron obviously believes that he is not accountable to human society, but rather, he should only hold himself accountable to a deity whose wishes he gets to define himself, through selective and inconsistent interpretation of ancient mythologies.)


eh?


(Most of the stories, myths, and morals can all be traced back to Sumeria, Babylon, and Egypt. It is a myth that all morals are derived from Christianity.)

All morals definitely aren't derived from christianity.. but many are..


(He could have been just ok if he just wanted to point out that a generalization about religious people is bad or that we can find atheists with prejudice, bigotony etc - since its a human trait, we would find - but he had to prove this point is wrong by doing this same thing he classify as a mistake and worse, disrespectful he started to come in a forum which owner clearly states his ideology against religious preaching to do the same thing (and to shame to a christian, he does it badly). That would be the same thing if Wong started to wake every sunday to go to a church to argue with people there about how science is superior to religion. He does not not(at least i suppose and hope so). He is much more ethic than the one who shows a book to support some morality...)


what is your complaint? or are you only interested in people stating opinions, that parallel yours? Is this a biased discussion group where only atheist views are tolerated? you claim that we're the mislead brainwashed types.. yet you seem to be the one's with the selective reasoning, and censorship of the truth - or anything else you dont want to hear.


(Jericho's destruction was ordered by god, the christian god as it happens. )


and this proves?


(Must I really point out the history of the christain faith to you? You seem to have a opinion that atheists lead a life of "self indulgence and conveniance as opposed to one of morality" Are you suggesting thats Ahtesits have no morals? that atheists lead lives of decadent indulgence of every whim?
What would you have them do, and why? Answer that and we shall see where 'affront to freedom comes from'.)


i never said/typed/stated that all atheists are immoral or anything close.. it "seems," that many dont really care whether there is or isnt a God.. or whether christianity has its merits.. many SEEM to find it easier to go through life with the opinion that there is no God.. based solely on 2nd-hand rumor, opinion, or speculation.. and that it is more convenient for people to worship themselves, and indulge in whatever they want.. then be responsible.


(By the way, I love the title of this thread. "Ailments." As if there's something wrong with atheists. Not even that. We're all suffering from a disease! Yes, the disease of free thought! Better watch out! It's airborne and highly contagious! Symptoms of having Free Thought may include a happier life, less guilt and the cessation of worshipping fairy tale characters.)

Free Thought? interesting.. and I suppose you actually invested the time and effort to find out if there was a God.. before coming to that conclusion? if not, lack of knowledge = ignorance.. not 'free thought,' despite what you might think.

interesting that you practically validate all my arguments by citing more "happiness, less guilt, and cessation," as your motivation.. for being an atheist.. all those things = more convenience.

(I'm going to venture a guess and say that Shaolin is Catholic. The Church seems to have no problem labeling behaviors in people that it doesn't like as "diseases." In the Catechism, for example, homosexuality is described as a "condition.")


No, I'm not Catholic.. I don't believe in some of their doctrines, such as immaculate conception, original sin.. in many ways they create their own beliefs.. which is dangerous.. so, nope, not Catholic. maybe your worst nightmare, eh? your worse nightmare = an educated christian.



(That's crap. The Bible has been demonstrated to tell some stories that are historically accurate (or, at least, have historical parallels), but the vast majority of stories told in the Bible appear to be complete fabrications, or are unverifiable. Also, the Bible was written by many different authors and was altered many times. At one time, Europeans would even imprison and kill people for translating Bibles from Hebrew instead of the "correct" Greek and Latin translations of the original Hebrew bible. Also, the Bible's accuracy is little better than any contemporary documents, including most Greco-Roman legends.)


Nope.. for reference research "Dead Sea Scrolls." The fact remains, the majority of historical facts we've been able to uncover validate the credibility of the Bible..


(So you can't be morale without believing in God?)

its possible to be moral without God.. but for me, its not about with or without God.. Truth is what im after.. people have tried for more than 2000 years to disprove christianity, and it hasn't happened.. so keep in mind, that many of the arguments people will cite, are often taken out of context.. or just manipulated quotations, that are mis-translated.. or bent into someone's belief system.


(Outright lie. Science can explain how bees fly, they have long since figured that out. You just never bothed to follow science well enough to figure that out.)

you could be right.. still, the fact is that science is limited.. and many scientific theories are proven wrong, years down the road, and need to be redressed..

(When they say that only ten percent genetics separates us from bovines, they are trying to support the theory of evolution by saying that cows are in the mammalian family. Ten percent is very significant, but it is a far smaller percentage than what separates us from, say, lizards. I have absolutely NO idea what you are trying to tell us here. Cows are fairly similar to us. Ten percent is a big difference, but not that big, genetically. I really don't see why you object to this, except that you are an anti-scientific bigot, and probably a religious zealot. BTW, science is not more biased than religious bigots like you. AND you mispelled "classified.")


Im not a bigot. That you accuse me of being one, is just weak. Ill post the abiogenesis stuff later.... maybe.

[Antediluvian]

(--ShAoLiN is an unrepentant irrational bigot. I'm not even going to bother replying to the little bitch. He is only worthy of our contempt, scorn, and derision. He should be mocked, spit on, and ridiculed. He should not be indulged by actually discussing his topic rationally!)

lol, you replied when you clicked the submit button.. genius.


(Considering that there are a large number of athiests in the world.... can you show me that your statement isn't complete BS... by giving me evidence that athiests "do whatever they want to"???

My actions are accountable to the rest of society, as are yours.)


history shows that generally most nations, or empires are founded on a strict moral code.. descendant generations tend to turn away from their heritage.. or the things that got them to where they were in the first place.. for example Rome in its later years, turned into an indulgent race of people.. i suppose i could prove that atheists place their own desires or intents above what might be best at time, just by some of the posts on this board.. or, ppl - who are "atheists," would rather post lame commentary - sounding EXACTLY like the christians they claim to dislike.. being just as prejudice, and ignorant as they claim christians are...


yeah.. we're all accountable to society.. but, remember that its possible for society to go bad, if we allow it to happen.


(This "Shaolin" moron obviously believes that he is not accountable to human society, but rather, he should only hold himself accountable to a deity whose wishes he gets to define himself, through selective and inconsistent interpretation of ancient mythologies.)


eh?


(Most of the stories, myths, and morals can all be traced back to Sumeria, Babylon, and Egypt. It is a myth that all morals are derived from Christianity.)

All morals definitely aren't derived from christianity.. but many are..


(He could have been just ok if he just wanted to point out that a generalization about religious people is bad or that we can find atheists with prejudice, bigotony etc - since its a human trait, we would find - but he had to prove this point is wrong by doing this same thing he classify as a mistake and worse, disrespectful he started to come in a forum which owner clearly states his ideology against religious preaching to do the same thing (and to shame to a christian, he does it badly). That would be the same thing if Wong started to wake every sunday to go to a church to argue with people there about how science is superior to religion. He does not not(at least i suppose and hope so). He is much more ethic than the one who shows a book to support some morality...)


what is your complaint? or are you only interested in people stating opinions, that parallel yours? Is this a biased discussion group where only atheist views are tolerated? you claim that we're the mislead brainwashed types.. yet you seem to be the one's with the selective reasoning, and censorship of the truth - or anything else you dont want to hear.


(Jericho's destruction was ordered by god, the christian god as it happens. )


and this proves?


(Must I really point out the history of the christain faith to you? You seem to have a opinion that atheists lead a life of "self indulgence and conveniance as opposed to one of morality" Are you suggesting thats Ahtesits have no morals? that atheists lead lives of decadent indulgence of every whim?
What would you have them do, and why? Answer that and we shall see where 'affront to freedom comes from'.)


i never said/typed/stated that all atheists are immoral or anything close.. it "seems," that many dont really care whether there is or isnt a God.. or whether christianity has its merits.. many SEEM to find it easier to go through life with the opinion that there is no God.. based solely on 2nd-hand rumor, opinion, or speculation.. and that it is more convenient for people to worship themselves, and indulge in whatever they want.. then be responsible.


(By the way, I love the title of this thread. "Ailments." As if there's something wrong with atheists. Not even that. We're all suffering from a disease! Yes, the disease of free thought! Better watch out! It's airborne and highly contagious! Symptoms of having Free Thought may include a happier life, less guilt and the cessation of worshipping fairy tale characters.)

Free Thought? interesting.. and I suppose you actually invested the time and effort to find out if there was a God.. before coming to that conclusion? if not, lack of knowledge = ignorance.. not 'free thought,' despite what you might think.

interesting that you practically validate all my arguments by citing more "happiness, less guilt, and cessation," as your motivation.. for being an atheist.. all those things = more convenience.

(I'm going to venture a guess and say that Shaolin is Catholic. The Church seems to have no problem labeling behaviors in people that it doesn't like as "diseases." In the Catechism, for example, homosexuality is described as a "condition.")


No, I'm not Catholic.. I don't believe in some of their doctrines, such as immaculate conception, original sin.. in many ways they create their own beliefs.. which is dangerous.. so, nope, not Catholic. maybe your worst nightmare, eh? your worse nightmare = an educated christian.



(That's crap. The Bible has been demonstrated to tell some stories that are historically accurate (or, at least, have historical parallels), but the vast majority of stories told in the Bible appear to be complete fabrications, or are unverifiable. Also, the Bible was written by many different authors and was altered many times. At one time, Europeans would even imprison and kill people for translating Bibles from Hebrew instead of the "correct" Greek and Latin translations of the original Hebrew bible. Also, the Bible's accuracy is little better than any contemporary documents, including most Greco-Roman legends.)


Nope.. for reference research "Dead Sea Scrolls." The fact remains, the majority of historical facts we've been able to uncover validate the credibility of the Bible..


(So you can't be morale without believing in God?)

its possible to be moral without God.. but for me, its not about with or without God.. Truth is what im after.. people have tried for more than 2000 years to disprove christianity, and it hasn't happened.. so keep in mind, that many of the arguments people will cite, are often taken out of context.. or just manipulated quotations, that are mis-translated.. or bent into someone's belief system.


(Outright lie. Science can explain how bees fly, they have long since figured that out. You just never bothed to follow science well enough to figure that out.)

you could be right.. still, the fact is that science is limited.. and many scientific theories are proven wrong, years down the road, and need to be redressed..

(When they say that only ten percent genetics separates us from bovines, they are trying to support the theory of evolution by saying that cows are in the mammalian family. Ten percent is very significant, but it is a far smaller percentage than what separates us from, say, lizards. I have absolutely NO idea what you are trying to tell us here. Cows are fairly similar to us. Ten percent is a big difference, but not that big, genetically. I really don't see why you object to this, except that you are an anti-scientific bigot, and probably a religious zealot. BTW, science is not more biased than religious bigots like you. AND you mispelled "classified.")


Im not a bigot. That you accuse me of being one, is just weak. Ill post the abiogenesis stuff later.... maybe.

History: So? Everyone indulges themselves. That doesn't make them immoral. As for your comment about athiests, you are generalizing.

Societies do not "go bad", they simply change.

Many are: Such as? May I point out that morals have been developed in places where there was no Christianity?

Complaint: We're interested in hearing different viewpoints, but you seemed to have opened this thread to bash athiests.

Proves: It proves Yaweh is a butcher.

Seems: You inferred that they are immoral, however. And athiests don't run around and do whatever they want without conscience. They have morals as well.

Free Thought: I certainly did. There's no proof for Yaweh's existence.

Validate: Is there something wrong with being happy, not having ridiculous amounts of guilt, and not worshipping imaginary entities?

Educated Christian: Yes, we all tremble in terror of the educated Christian.

Dead Sea Scrolls: They showed that the Bible had been altered, I believe.

Disprove: Already happened.

Moral without God: Glad you realize this.

Science: So? That's the beauty of science. It's mutable. If another theory comes up that fits the evidence better than the former theory, it's adopted, and the former discarded. And yes science limits itself to needing strong evidence before it believes something. Nothing wrong with that.

Bigot: Saying that athiests are inherently selfish because they're athiests is bigotry.

[ShAoLiN]

(SO, pagans are godless freaks that have no moral or ethical code...The Ancient Babolonians wrote the first codafied laws in HISTORY and guess what - No killing No Stealing was among those laws.....millennia before christainty was a THOUGHT in anyone's minds. Those damned pagans!! They brought us writing, Iron Making, weaving, language, books, DAMN them to hell....C'mon, just because they don't believe in Jesus the savior does not mean that they are a horde of barbarians....Christains were once the pagsn in Rome my friend.)

Relax.. no one said pagans are godless freaks, etc, etc. dunno what posts you're reading.


(For ONCE I'd like one of my fellow Christians to pick up a GODAMNED History book to read. Newsflash: the Bible is NOT history.)


I think the point was, history concurs with much of what is in the Bible.. not what you typed.



(SO, Christain morals EVOLVE is that it?? It was Ok to be Christain and kill your fellow man back in 1099 (Crusades in case you need a clue) BUT not now, not in the good ole 21st Century because morality has evolved....

Morality should NOT evolve, it was ALWAYS evil to kill another human being whether you were a neotlithic warrior roaming the plains of europe, a knight on Crusade or a modern day person.

Different laws for different times is a VERY cowardly way to squirm (maybe scurrying like a rat is a better metaphor) out of the uncomfortable position of defending Christianity's record on morality through the ages.)


how is it cowardly? do you realize that you're being hypocritical, in criticizing christians for killing, when americans have done the same in the past? how can you justify us killing people - vietnam, other wars.. when you criticize christians, or people who were perhaps misled christians doing the same?


(OK, WTF?! WHAT does 9/11 have to do with the point about Islam's record on merciful captures of cities in the early ages. The fact that the Jewish community under Abbasid rule in Iberia (SPAIN) flourished up until the CATHLOIC kings and Queens wrested control from the Muslims then promptly kicked the Jews out of Spain and siced the Inquisition on the rest?? Don't give me the different laws and different times BULLSHIT....Its WRONG NO MATTER WHEN IT IS DONE ESPECIALLY IF YOUR CHRISTIAN)


Check the back posts.. that one guy tried to say that Islam validated Bin Laden's actions.. or some bs, in an attempt to put over atheism.. weak.

killing, while im not pro-kill anything.. i think in some cases its almost unavoidable.. in some eras killing was probably so commonplace, that it wouldn't draw a second glance. if you lived in one of those eras, and believed that killing wasnt all that big a thing.. how would you POSSIBLY convince someone that it was wrong? short of brainwashing them.. or shooting them in the head? just tell them its wrong, think that would work?

(Only as badly as you want to see pagans as homosexuals, tattooed freaks who have no morals.....)

weak..... pagans had no restrictions against either of those things..... since christians did, i used it to point out how some morals didnt come from paganism...... never said anything about pagans being............ whatever it is you think i said.


(Oh, I see, Pope Urban the Second wasn't a Christian. YOU are being ethnocentric, here. You are ignoring other people's beliefs in determining who is a Christian and who is not. That is heinously immoral and offensive to many people. BTW, you are also judging people based on their beliefs. You are also imposing your beliefs on them. That is immoral, by Christian standards, I believe. You are a hypocrite.)


No....... I think other people are ignoring the fact, that Hitler strangely didn't seem to follow christian beliefs.. a christian is one who follows christ, or christ's beliefs.. etc etc.... since hitler made up in many cases his own whacked out theology, that wasnt parallel to christian beliefs.. you cannot beyond all doubt classify him a christian.. which many of you seem to ignore, because you want so badly to rank him amongst us.

I never judged anyone.... the words "seem(s)," "maybe," and so on.. tend to be used often. check the original post.

i am a hypocrite.. so what.. so are you and everyone else. I never imposed beliefs on anyone.. if they dont like it, click the x. or is this forum atheist only? afraid i might poke some holes in your pre-conceived notions of atheism?


(Of course not. The Bible does not say to have Crusades against Muslims and pogroms against Jews, but we saw that happen. Incidentally, do you guys know why there were so many Jews in the Middle East during WWII? It's because the Christian countries refused to accept them. They were persecuted horribly from the Middle Ages (Spanish Inquisition was PART of that, but not the only part), on through WWII, when Europe refused to take them.)

.... and that proves?


(Oh, I see, so in spite of the fact that you support a literal interpretation of the Bible, it can mean different things in different ages. Or were those people Christians because they were lynching people? BTW, God himself often joined in the slaughter. Should we do that in Afghanistan because God said so?)


Actually.. I DONT support a literal translation of the Bible, and never claimed to. Scroll up, I addressed practically the same question up there ^ someplace.. God never said to kill afghans, so its a moot point.


(No, bin Laden bends moral laws, as well as the Koran. When Christians did it by sacking the cities, you dismissed it as a different set of laws for a different age, but guess what? Osama is still using the Koran as a legal document, as it was first written to be. You have a whole double-standard thing, going here. It is becoming disturbing.)


.. know what? Old Testament is "Old," because its laws address a Testament that came before the one we use now.. Thus, its accurate to say, they were different laws for a different age..

I doubt you know anything about the Koran.. so you probably shouldn't post about it.. double standard how? or are you all, just going to post weak accusations, and indulge in weak character assassination..


(So why was the Church silent during the Holocaust? Why didn't it try to get other countries involved in helping the Jews, even though it knew (as the US did) what was going on inside of Germany?)


Why was the Church silent? do we look like the Marines to you, buddy?


(Pagans: I afraid it's fact. People have developed morals long before Christianity.)


that doesnt prove anything.. and ive already proven that there are morals that didnt come from paganism, so obviously the 'myth,' that all christian beliefs are derived from paganism.. is false.


(Hyperbole: A one word response doesn't refute anything. You must explain why it's hyperbole.)

dont feel like it.. look at it, its obvious.

(Simple: The Bible contradicts itself so much, who knows what it really endorses? And the people who were responsible for such things were Christian. Or I should say, Christian Fundies.)

(Quoted: But the OT is never apologized for in the Bible, and it's atrocities remain, regardless of it's applicability. In fact, Jesus quoted the OT, he seemed to think it still had value. And the NT isn't much better. No real atrocities, but plenty of racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious discrimination.)


there are atrocities, racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious descrimination right now.. they are commonplace where you have "people." if people choose to do those things, its not God's fault.. in the cases where a city or something was ordered destroyed.. we dont have enough knowledge to judge God.. all the people killed, could have been, reincarnated.. and given a second chance at life.. there are other possibilities.


(Koran: But it does say kill the infidels.)

????????

(Different laws: Cop-out. You simply are trying to get out of defending the atrocities of past believers.)


why would i have to defend, their actions.... or justify them to you? who are you to judge?


(Osama: You seem to be contradicting yourself. First you defend the Koran, and then bash it. Make up your mind.)

????????? use the cut and paste or quote button


(Hitler: Sorry. All evidence points to Hitler being a Christian. He was even endorsed by the Catholic Church of the time.A)


... disprove my axiom for him not being a christian then.

[Stuart Mackey]

(--(Jericho's destruction was ordered by god, the christian god as it happens.

and this proves?

This proves that the christian god is a amoral, self serving mass murderer, not worthy of the respect of any rational person.

Must I really point out the history of the christain faith to you? You seem to have a opinion that atheists lead a life of "self indulgence and conveniance as opposed to one of morality" Are you suggesting thats Ahtesits have no morals? that atheists lead lives of decadent indulgence of every whim?
What would you have them do, and why? Answer that and we shall see where 'affront to freedom comes from'.)

(--i never said/typed/stated that all atheists are immoral or anything close.. it "seems," that many dont really care whether there is or isnt a God.. or whether christianity has its merits.. many SEEM to find it easier to go through life with the opinion that there is no God.. based solely on 2nd-hand rumor, opinion, or speculation.. and that it is more convenient for people to worship themselves, and indulge in whatever they want.. then be responsible.

And once again you assume that atheism must equel a lack of resopnsibility, how do you prove this?. You assume that atheism is a desition based on seconed hand knowledge/rumour, prove it.
You also assume that atheists worship themselfs, with out proof. And the entire tone of your postes here is that Cristianity is, or should be, the natural state of affairs, that atheists must be backsliders from what is right and proper. Which brings me back to the morality of freedom, you seem to want to foister your beleifs on others, the opposite of freedom.
Also, could you please use the quoting functions? so its a tad easier to see to whom you are replying to.

[ShAoLiN]

(History: So? Everyone indulges themselves. That doesn't make them immoral. As for your comment about athiests, you are generalizing.)

taken out of context #28328737.. I never said, indulgence = immorality.

(Societies do not "go bad", they simply change.)


The change could be for the better or worse.



(Many are: Such as? May I point out that morals have been developed in places where there was no Christianity?)

all morals didnt come from christianity.. but many did.


(Complaint: We're interested in hearing different viewpoints, but you seemed to have opened this thread to bash athiests.)


I havent bashed anyone........ yet.


(Proves: It proves Yaweh is a butcher.)


nope.. i can envision cases where war/killing would be inevitable.. surely history proves that.


(Seems: You inferred that they are immoral, however. And athiests don't run around and do whatever they want without conscience. They have morals as well.)


maybe.... ive seen scant proof of it so far.


(Free Thought: I certainly did. There's no proof for Yaweh's existence.)

(Validate: Is there something wrong with being happy, not having ridiculous amounts of guilt, and not worshipping imaginary entities?)


i feel no guilt.. and im probably more 'happy,' then some ppl. maybe a lot of ppl.


(Educated Christian: Yes, we all tremble in terror of the educated Christian.)


-G-


(Dead Sea Scrolls: They showed that the Bible had been altered, I believe.)


quite the opposite.


(Disprove: Already happened.)


eh



(Science: So? That's the beauty of science. It's mutable. If another theory comes up that fits the evidence better than the former theory, it's adopted, and the former discarded. And yes science limits itself to needing strong evidence before it believes something. Nothing wrong with that.)


*nod*


(Bigot: Saying that athiests are inherently selfish because they're athiests is bigotry.)


its just my impression..... i dont think all atheists are these horrible people, but maybe some are..

[Antediluvian]

(SO, pagans are godless freaks that have no moral or ethical code...The Ancient Babolonians wrote the first codafied laws in HISTORY and guess what - No killing No Stealing was among those laws.....millennia before christainty was a THOUGHT in anyone's minds. Those damned pagans!! They brought us writing, Iron Making, weaving, language, books, DAMN them to hell....C'mon, just because they don't believe in Jesus the savior does not mean that they are a horde of barbarians....Christains were once the pagsn in Rome my friend.)

Relax.. no one said pagans are godless freaks, etc, etc. dunno what posts you're reading.


(For ONCE I'd like one of my fellow Christians to pick up a GODAMNED History book to read. Newsflash: the Bible is NOT history.)


I think the point was, history concurs with much of what is in the Bible.. not what you typed.



(SO, Christain morals EVOLVE is that it?? It was Ok to be Christain and kill your fellow man back in 1099 (Crusades in case you need a clue) BUT not now, not in the good ole 21st Century because morality has evolved....

Morality should NOT evolve, it was ALWAYS evil to kill another human being whether you were a neotlithic warrior roaming the plains of europe, a knight on Crusade or a modern day person.

Different laws for different times is a VERY cowardly way to squirm (maybe scurrying like a rat is a better metaphor) out of the uncomfortable position of defending Christianity's record on morality through the ages.)


how is it cowardly? do you realize that you're being hypocritical, in criticizing christians for killing, when americans have done the same in the past? how can you justify us killing people - vietnam, other wars.. when you criticize christians, or people who were perhaps misled christians doing the same?


(OK, WTF?! WHAT does 9/11 have to do with the point about Islam's record on merciful captures of cities in the early ages. The fact that the Jewish community under Abbasid rule in Iberia (SPAIN) flourished up until the CATHLOIC kings and Queens wrested control from the Muslims then promptly kicked the Jews out of Spain and siced the Inquisition on the rest?? Don't give me the different laws and different times BULLSHIT....Its WRONG NO MATTER WHEN IT IS DONE ESPECIALLY IF YOUR CHRISTIAN)


Check the back posts.. that one guy tried to say that Islam validated Bin Laden's actions.. or some bs, in an attempt to put over atheism.. weak.

killing, while im not pro-kill anything.. i think in some cases its almost unavoidable.. in some eras killing was probably so commonplace, that it wouldn't draw a second glance. if you lived in one of those eras, and believed that killing wasnt all that big a thing.. how would you POSSIBLY convince someone that it was wrong? short of brainwashing them.. or shooting them in the head? just tell them its wrong, think that would work?

(Only as badly as you want to see pagans as homosexuals, tattooed freaks who have no morals.....)

weak..... pagans had no restrictions against either of those things..... since christians did, i used it to point out how some morals didnt come from paganism...... never said anything about pagans being............ whatever it is you think i said.


(Oh, I see, Pope Urban the Second wasn't a Christian. YOU are being ethnocentric, here. You are ignoring other people's beliefs in determining who is a Christian and who is not. That is heinously immoral and offensive to many people. BTW, you are also judging people based on their beliefs. You are also imposing your beliefs on them. That is immoral, by Christian standards, I believe. You are a hypocrite.)


No....... I think other people are ignoring the fact, that Hitler strangely didn't seem to follow christian beliefs.. a christian is one who follows christ, or christ's beliefs.. etc etc.... since hitler made up in many cases his own whacked out theology, that wasnt parallel to christian beliefs.. you cannot beyond all doubt classify him a christian.. which many of you seem to ignore, because you want so badly to rank him amongst us.

I never judged anyone.... the words "seem(s)," "maybe," and so on.. tend to be used often. check the original post.

i am a hypocrite.. so what.. so are you and everyone else. I never imposed beliefs on anyone.. if they dont like it, click the x. or is this forum atheist only? afraid i might poke some holes in your pre-conceived notions of atheism?


(Of course not. The Bible does not say to have Crusades against Muslims and pogroms against Jews, but we saw that happen. Incidentally, do you guys know why there were so many Jews in the Middle East during WWII? It's because the Christian countries refused to accept them. They were persecuted horribly from the Middle Ages (Spanish Inquisition was PART of that, but not the only part), on through WWII, when Europe refused to take them.)

.... and that proves?


(Oh, I see, so in spite of the fact that you support a literal interpretation of the Bible, it can mean different things in different ages. Or were those people Christians because they were lynching people? BTW, God himself often joined in the slaughter. Should we do that in Afghanistan because God said so?)


Actually.. I DONT support a literal translation of the Bible, and never claimed to. Scroll up, I addressed practically the same question up there ^ someplace.. God never said to kill afghans, so its a moot point.


(No, bin Laden bends moral laws, as well as the Koran. When Christians did it by sacking the cities, you dismissed it as a different set of laws for a different age, but guess what? Osama is still using the Koran as a legal document, as it was first written to be. You have a whole double-standard thing, going here. It is becoming disturbing.)


.. know what? Old Testament is "Old," because its laws address a Testament that came before the one we use now.. Thus, its accurate to say, they were different laws for a different age..

I doubt you know anything about the Koran.. so you probably shouldn't post about it.. double standard how? or are you all, just going to post weak accusations, and indulge in weak character assassination..


(So why was the Church silent during the Holocaust? Why didn't it try to get other countries involved in helping the Jews, even though it knew (as the US did) what was going on inside of Germany?)


Why was the Church silent? do we look like the Marines to you, buddy?


(Pagans: I afraid it's fact. People have developed morals long before Christianity.)


that doesnt prove anything.. and ive already proven that there are morals that didnt come from paganism, so obviously the 'myth,' that all christian beliefs are derived from paganism.. is false.


(Hyperbole: A one word response doesn't refute anything. You must explain why it's hyperbole.)

dont feel like it.. look at it, its obvious.

(Simple: The Bible contradicts itself so much, who knows what it really endorses? And the people who were responsible for such things were Christian. Or I should say, Christian Fundies.)

(Quoted: But the OT is never apologized for in the Bible, and it's atrocities remain, regardless of it's applicability. In fact, Jesus quoted the OT, he seemed to think it still had value. And the NT isn't much better. No real atrocities, but plenty of racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious discrimination.)


there are atrocities, racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious descrimination right now.. they are commonplace where you have "people." if people choose to do those things, its not God's fault.. in the cases where a city or something was ordered destroyed.. we dont have enough knowledge to judge God.. all the people killed, could have been, reincarnated.. and given a second chance at life.. there are other possibilities.


(Koran: But it does say kill the infidels.)

????????

(Different laws: Cop-out. You simply are trying to get out of defending the atrocities of past believers.)


why would i have to defend, their actions.... or justify them to you? who are you to judge?


(Osama: You seem to be contradicting yourself. First you defend the Koran, and then bash it. Make up your mind.)

????????? use the cut and paste or quote button


(Hitler: Sorry. All evidence points to Hitler being a Christian. He was even endorsed by the Catholic Church of the time.A)


... disprove my axiom for him not being a christian then.

Proven: You haven't proved anything. All you did was make an unsupported claim. The Christian Religion incorporates various beliefs and morals from earlier pagan religions, like the religion of Zoroaster.


Feel: So you can't back up your statement, then?

There: So? The Bible endorses such things. And we have plenty of knowledge to judge Yaweh, no matter what immoral things the people of the destroyed cities may or may not have done, that's no excuse for killing pregnant women or children, or ordering their deaths. The Bible doesn't support reincarnation, by the way.

Defend: Because they're part of your religion, simply put. You seem to think Christians and the other followers of Yaweh are so moral, so you must explain their actions and defend their reasoning and justification.

Cut and paste: I debate as I please.

Axiom:


"I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal."2 (Hitler admired religious figures).

"I thank Heaven that a portion of the memories of those days still remains with me. Woods and meadows were the battlefields on which the 'conflicts' which exist everywhere in life were decided."3 (Hitler believed in Heaven).

"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party ... The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times ... How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all."4 (Hitler was inspired to become a radical anti-Semite by the Viennese Christian Social movement, whose attitudes are almost identical to the far-right American Christian fundamentalist movement today).

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."5 (Hitler obviously believed in a supreme being).

"Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be 'discovered' by an election"6 (Hitler was fond of paraphrasing the Bible (Mark 10:25 in this case), and he does this many, many times elsewhere in the book).

"The root of the whole evil lay, particularly in Schonerer's opinion, in the fact that the directing body of the Catholic Church was not in Germany, and that for this very reason alone it was hostile to the interests of our nationality."7 (affirming that Hitler's only real problem with his childhood religion was the fact that its power base was not in Germany).

"I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction."8 (the "divine court of the eternal judge" seems a rather strange idea from anyone but a Judeo-Christian, since Pagan and Eastern religions generally lack any such divine judgemental entity, to say nothing of atheism)

"Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image."9

"Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children."10 (recalling World War I).

"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe."11 (it would appear that Hitler agreed with modern "intelligent design" creationists on the existence of a Creator).

"Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth ... Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world ..."12 (Jerry Falwell? Is that you?)

"But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God"13 (note that when he says "images of God", he refers to racially pure Aryans; this sentence comes in the context of a diatribe against racial intermixing).

"While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply so their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable."14 (Hitler agrees with George W. Bush that religion and morality are intertwined).

"Also noteworthy is the increasingly violent struggle against the dogmatic foundations of the various churches without which in this human world the practical existence of a religious faith is not conceivable ... The attack against dogmas as such, therefore, strongly resembles the struggle against the general legal foundations of a state, and, as the latter would end in a total anarchy of the state, the former would end in a worthless religious nihilism."15 (Hitler, trying to equate criticism of dogma to an assault on civilization)

"The result of all racial crossing is therefore in brief always the following: (a) Lowering of the level of the higher race; (b) Physical and intellectual regression and hence the beginning of a slowly but surely progressing sickness. To bring about such a development is, then, nothing else but to sin against the will of the eternal creator."16 (Hitler tries to define racial intermarriage as defiance of God's will, in exactly the way modern racists do, particularly in the southern American states; indeed, 40% of Alabama voters voted to keep interracial marriage illegal in November 2000)

"And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form. Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world."17 (Hitler believes in the afterlife, and he agrees with modern Christian fundamentalists about the importance of religious matters over material matters)

"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation."18 (Hitler demonstrates the common anti-Semitic view that Jesus was an Aryan rather than a Jew, and glowingly described him as "the great founder of the new doctrine".

"The Jew almost never marries a Christian woman; it is the Christian who marries a Jewess ... The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew ... With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people."19 (Hitler echoes Martin Luther's thoughts on Satan and Jewry; note that Hitler openly admired Luther, who wrote the virulent anti-Semitic screed "On Jews And Their Lies", and the infamous Kristallnacht was committed on Luther's birthday. Also note that he reiterates his hatred of intermarriage, but this time on religious rather than racial grounds. He tends to use the terms "German" and "Christian" interchangeably, which makes sense since he believed that Jesus was an Aryan and that true Christianity recognized the supremacy of the Aryan race).

"The future of a movement is conditioned by the fanaticism, yes, the intolerance, with which its adherents uphold it as the sole correct movement, and push it past other formations of a similar sort ... absolute intolerance also provides long growth ... The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others."20 (Hitler explains why he thinks religious intolerance is good, agreeing in principle with modern right-wing Christian fundamentalists who bemoan that if they are not intolerant of diversity, their belief system will have no future).

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."21

"The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack."22 (Hitler's own words demonstrate clearly that despite the common myth that the religion of Nazism was Nordic paganism, he actually regarded the Nordic pagan revival movement with nothing but contempt and derision, and Rosenberg was obviously charting his own path).

"A man who knows a thing, who is aware of a given danger, and sees the possibility of a remedy with his own eyes, has the duty and obligation, by God, not to work 'silently,' but to stand up before the whole public against the evil and for its cure."23 (isn't it interesting that you could easily imagine many of these quotes coming from the mouth of a modern-day preacher?)

"By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious-dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence."24 (Hitler equates religious dogma to ethics and morality, again just like modern right-wing intolerant Christians)

"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."25 (Hitler believes in the Genesis story of expulsion from Paradise).

"The task of preserving and advancing the highest humanity, given to this earth by the benevolence of the Almighty, seems a truly high mission."26

"A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape."27 (Hitler believed that Aryans are holy and were created in God's "image", while other races evolved from apes, hence his hatred for racial mixing because it diluted God's image).

"It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world."28 (Hitler outlines some of his eugenics ideas; note that he described black humans as "Negroes" and white humans as "European humanity". Like the medieval European Christian conquerors, he obviously thought of black people as sub-human, and he often described Czechs as "sub-humans" as well)

"That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?"29 (Hitler believes that racial mixing is an extension of "original sin")

"It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."30 (again, he repeats his belief that Aryans come from God while other races evolved from apes).

"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god"31 (just for fun, try asking people whether quotes like this came from Jerry Falwell or Adolf Hitler).

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."32 (again Hitler repeats his belief that the Aryan race was created by God, and that it would be a sin to dilute it through racial intermixing with inferior races which evolved naturally).

"If the German nation wants to end a state of affairs that threatens its extermination in Europe, it must not fall into the error of the pre-War period and make enemies of God and the world; it must recognize the most dangerous enemy and strike at him with all its concentrated power. And if this victory is obtained through sacrifices elsewhere, the coming generations of our people will not condemn us."33 (he seems to have learned the lessons of the Biblical Old Testament well: God punishes the people when they disobey him, so they must not make an enemy of God)

"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'"34

"we National Socialists must hold unflinchingly to our aim in foreign policy, namely to secure for the German people the land and soil to which they are entitled on this earth. And this action is the only one which, before God and or German posterity, would make any sacrifice of blood seem justified: before God, since we have been put on this earth with the mission of eternal struggle for our daily bread..."35 (again, Hitler tries to justify his actions as the will of God, as countless Christians have done before him).

"And so he advances on his fatal road until another force comes forth to oppose him, and in a mighty struggle hurls the heaven-stormer back to Lucifer. Germany is today the next great war aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of this international serpent..."36 (Hitler explaining that the German people must send the "heaven-stormer" back to Hell).

That's from the Mein Kampf, a book Hitler wrote. Thanks to Michael Wong for having this on his website.

[Antediluvian]

(History: So? Everyone indulges themselves. That doesn't make them immoral. As for your comment about athiests, you are generalizing.)

taken out of context #28328737.. I never said, indulgence = immorality.

(Societies do not "go bad", they simply change.)


The change could be for the better or worse.



(Many are: Such as? May I point out that morals have been developed in places where there was no Christianity?)

all morals didnt come from christianity.. but many did.


(Complaint: We're interested in hearing different viewpoints, but you seemed to have opened this thread to bash athiests.)


I havent bashed anyone........ yet.


(Proves: It proves Yaweh is a butcher.)


nope.. i can envision cases where war/killing would be inevitable.. surely history proves that.


(Seems: You inferred that they are immoral, however. And athiests don't run around and do whatever they want without conscience. They have morals as well.)


maybe.... ive seen scant proof of it so far.


(Free Thought: I certainly did. There's no proof for Yaweh's existence.)

(Validate: Is there something wrong with being happy, not having ridiculous amounts of guilt, and not worshipping imaginary entities?)


i feel no guilt.. and im probably more 'happy,' then some ppl. maybe a lot of ppl.


(Educated Christian: Yes, we all tremble in terror of the educated Christian.)


-G-


(Dead Sea Scrolls: They showed that the Bible had been altered, I believe.)


quite the opposite.


(Disprove: Already happened.)


eh



(Science: So? That's the beauty of science. It's mutable. If another theory comes up that fits the evidence better than the former theory, it's adopted, and the former discarded. And yes science limits itself to needing strong evidence before it believes something. Nothing wrong with that.)


*nod*


(Bigot: Saying that athiests are inherently selfish because they're athiests is bigotry.)


its just my impression..... i dont think all atheists are these horrible people, but maybe some are..

Change: Depends on your point of view.

Many did: Shaolin, you have to provide evidence for this, not just repeat yourself.

Bashed: That athiest/automatically selfish idea is bashing.

Envision: That doesn't disprove Yaweh isn't a butcher.

Maybe: You're not looking hard enough.

Guilt: Good for you. But i was referring to the fact that you seem to think that just because people reject Yaweh, and they have more happiness and less guilt as a result, that means they're immoral.

Quite the opposite: What kind of rebuttal is that? It means nothing. Supply your evidence.

Impression: You're changing your position, I see.

[Gil Hamilton]

I don't understand people like Shaolin. Aside from the powerfully ironic name for a christian fundie, what mind state do you have to be in to do what he's doing? Did he honestly think he can march on to a message board full of people who can't stand fundies, banner flying, bible thumpin', with his sleeves rolled up to do the "Lord's Work" and then expect to get anywhere? Especially when they, despite being provacative at best, insulting at worst, expect people to go "Oh, gee! You're right! Praise the Lord!" just like that.
It's sad, in the same way the movie "The Postman" was sad. Such blind effort for so little product.... you have my pity, Shaolin.

[Nick]

I don't understand people like Shaolin. Aside from the powerfully ironic name for a christian fundie, what mind state do you have to be in to do what he's doing? Did he honestly think he can march on to a message board full of people who can't stand fundies, banner flying, bible thumpin', with his sleeves rolled up to do the "Lord's Work" and then expect to get anywhere? Especially when they, despite being provacative at best, insulting at worst, expect people to go "Oh, gee! You're right! Praise the Lord!" just like that.
It's sad, in the same way the movie "The Postman" was sad. Such blind effort for so little product.... you have my pity, Shaolin.

Ahh, but now he is in full duck dodge and weave mode. Whereas he has never made _any_ attempt to limit his views to "lazy, immoral' atheists (which would have been a tautology - of course lazt and immoral people are only interested in their own convenience, be they atheists or bible-bashing fundies), instead stating them in terms that indicate a tendency to hold that view of _all_ atheists, the rest of us have (generally) tried to make it clear that the problem is with Christian fundamentalists, not with liberal Christians who have let their moral code be informed by the lessons of humanism.

Unfortunately, admitting the above would mean acknowledging either:

1. That Shaolin actually believes that atheism is inextricabbly linked with immorality; or
2. That Shaolin has stated his position badly, creating the impression that (1) is true.

I doubt Shaolin has the guts or intellectual honesty required to admit either. *shrug* Who knows, maybe he'll surprise me.