Is the Culture Overrated?

[Big Orange]

Which it didn't, ninny. I posted this in a recent thread - 90,624, over four decades. And when you've done that, presuming they're S1+ drones, they don't have to do anything for that GSV. They're full culture citizens - and they'd be pretty peeved about being made for such a pointless excersise, no?

Sorry I miscounted how many ROU ships that GSV made, but 90, 624 ships slowly built up in secret is no mean feat and a lone GSV could churn out billions of drones and knife missiles if it shifted much of it's resources to such a task; and why should the drones being churned out have to be fully sentient, if they are being built for such a one sided exercise?

There is no data.

There's no solid data, but we do know they are mostly "trapped" in their dwarf galaxy and their ships seem to be quite conventional (in a space opera kind of way) - I guess comparing their best warship with a typical GCU would possibly be like comparing a row boat with a nuclear sub. I wonder how exactly they knew about the Culture in moderate detail and how they acquired that Homomda equipment.

PoG was published long ago - 80s, I think. We know by now.

That's not really the point, I'm wondering what would prompt the Azad leadership would act in a irrational manner and go on a killing spree amongst their vassels, prisoners and slaves. I mean if the Azadians had the carpet pulled from under them by a overt Culture invasion, I doubt a multi-star system occupation army and secret police would react in a coherent manner.

[NecronLord]

Sorry I miscounted how many ROU ships that GSV made, but 90, 624 ships slowly built up in secret is no mean feat and a lone GSV could churn out billions of drones and knife missiles if it shifted much of it's resources to such a task; and why should the drones being churned out have to be fully sentient, if they are being built for such a one sided exercise?

Because in order to manage an invasion with any degree of subtelty, they need to be near S1? Knife missiles aren't, drones, as a rule (maybe even Slap Drones) are.

There's no solid data,

There is no data.

but we do know they are mostly "trapped" in their dwarf galaxy

Cultreverse drives are not fast.

I mean if the Azadians had the carpet pulled from under them by a overt Culture invasion, I doubt a multi-star system occupation army and secret police would react in a coherent manner.

You want to put that to the test? Authoritarian regimes have generally been fairly fond of the idea of Scorched Earth in human history. Why should the Azad be any different?

Look at it this way, a far more subtle botch of intervention in the affairs of the Chel resulted in five Billion casualties. The Culture believes that its good works give it a moral right to exist - for all they know, if they start going around like a rampaging elephant, someone like the Dra'azon might decide to enforce this - and as they're continuously putting their foot in their mouth and doing more harm than good, wipe them from existance.

There is no excuse for the Culture to go around like a bull in a china shop, and it would violate, in their philosophy, thier very excuse for existance. Ever seen the Red Dwarf episode 'The Inquisitor?'

[Big Orange]

Because in order to manage an invasion with any degree of subtelty, they need to be near S1? Knife missiles aren't, drones, as a rule (maybe even Slap Drones) are.

Yeah, it does seem like a very gross waste of resources, churing out drones like that and for some boderline religious reason; I guess a Mind wants every drone to self-aware and have a soul of sorts.

There's no solid data

Well we know their standard cruisers are roughly a mile in length and their flagship caused major tidal waves when it crashed into a planet's ocean.

You want to put that to the test? Authoritarian regimes have generally been fairly fond of the idea of Scorched Earth in human history. Why should the Azad be any different?

Hmmm, only the Azad elite were fully briefed on the Culture (but how? Also how did they aquire that Homomda device?) and it was implied the rest of the Azad populace and most of their armed forces were kept in the dark about the real nature of the Culture, so most of the secret police would have no clear motive to "take care" of their charges (but then again the Emperor realising that he was going to lose the Azad tournament went and slaughtered his courtiers mostly out of pique, so the rest of the Azadian armed forces could react in a similarly irrational manner when faced with open invasion).

Look at it this way, a far more subtle botch of intervention in the affairs of the Chel resulted in five Billion casualties. The Culture believes that its good works give it a moral right to exist - for all they know, if they start going around like a rampaging elephant, someone like the Dra'azon might decide to enforce this - and as they're continuously putting their foot in their mouth and doing more harm than good, wipe them from existance.

There is no excuse for the Culture to go around like a bull in a china shop, and it would violate, in their philosophy, thier very excuse for existance. Ever seen the Red Dwarf episode 'The Inquisitor?'

Can't really argue with that and it shows that the Culture has a "international" community that keeps it in check and it has limits.

[OmegaGuy]

http://cultureweak.ytmnd.com/

[NecronLord]

http://cultureweak.ytmnd.com/

That was quite painful. Being able to be slapped around by the Time Lords isn't exactly a weakness, and you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking it is.

Mr Banks just seems to not like the idea of time travel much. I did mention how technically, the Algebraist-verse wormholes ought to be time-displacing too, though. He seemed interested.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Mr Banks just seems to not like the idea of time travel much. I did mention how technically, the Algebraist-verse wormholes ought to be time-displacing too, though. He seemed interested.

I thought you met him before He wrote "TA"?

And do you mean that it's Time-displacing due to arriving "Instantly" despite FTL being nonexistant?
(Thats what occured to me at the least), causing a need for 4d movement due to the limited c speed (Though space folding A la "A wrinkle in time" could also be an explanation, though unlikely

[NecronLord]

I thought you met him before He wrote "TA"?

Nope. It was at an Algebraist signing in Liverpool.

And do you mean that it's Time-displacing due to arriving "Instantly" despite FTL being nonexistant?

Nah, it's more, when the engineers move new wormholes, because one terminus (the one being moved) is travelling at relativistic speed, and one isn't, then there should be a displacement, as at one end, time passes slower, so one end ages faster than the others.

Baxter uses this method of 'time travel' in 'Ring' IIRC.

[The Nomad]

Baxter uses this method of 'time travel' in 'Ring' IIRC.

Mostly in Timelike Infinity, although the reason behind the relativistic jaunt of the Great Northern was precisely that. If memory serves, one Matt Visser dude apparently found out that in such a case, the wormhole ought to collapse in a burst of exotic particles.

Nope. It was at an Algebraist signing in Liverpool.

You won't ever stop bragging about that, will you ?

[NecronLord]

Mostly in Timelike Infinity, although the reason behind the relativistic jaunt of the Great Northern was precisely that. If memory serves, one Matt Visser dude apparently found out that in such a case, the wormhole ought to collapse in a burst of exotic particles.

Well, I've only read Ring. And by 'read' I mean skimmed. Really should sit down and read it end to end.

You won't ever stop bragging about that, will you ?

Noo. I'm very unhappy if I don't get to do my name dropping in any Culture related thread. Of course, given that you tend to have some form of potential time travel in any setting with FTL, I suspect the lack of Time Travel in the Culture universe is more to do with having no useful form, than actually 'moving backwards in time' being impossible per se. Casuality > The Culture, clearly.

[Lord Zentei]

The Q and the Ascended Ancients would likely fall under the category of "Sublimed" so I doubt anyone would seriously make the claim that the Culture could defeat such powers. Most people use the Culture in a tech debate as just that, a TECH debate, and not against races that are somehow superior by nature (those that do use such excuses "Q can beat the Empire, RAR!") are morons. For a technological species not dependent on being Sublimed or have some innate talent for handwavium, the Culture is near the top of the tree and I don't think many see them as overrated.

Why is it that Q-fapping keeps occouring in even the hallowed halls of SDN?

"Sublimed", indeed. WTF does that even mean?

[The Grim Squeaker]

The Q and the Ascended Ancients would likely fall under the category of "Sublimed" so I doubt anyone would seriously make the claim that the Culture could defeat such powers. Most people use the Culture in a tech debate as just that, a TECH debate, and not against races that are somehow superior by nature (those that do use such excuses "Q can beat the Empire, RAR!") are morons. For a technological species not dependent on being Sublimed or have some innate talent for handwavium, the Culture is near the top of the tree and I don't think many see them as overrated.

Why is it that Q-fapping keeps occouring in even the hallowed halls of SDN?

Not everyone's Read (Or agrees with) "Q vs Han Solo" or remembers Sisko punching Q?:P

"Sublimed", indeed. WTF does that even mean?

Well, in the Culture books it effectively means that they've "Ascended" beyond the "mortal plane" and can bend the laws of space & Time into a pretzel.
(For example [Culture books - "Look to Windward"] one Sublimed race altered various universal constants and wrote their names in stars just to show that they could in order to prove their claims to their unascended "Descendants" that they could)

[CaptJodan]

Why is it that Q-fapping keeps occouring in even the hallowed halls of SDN?

You do realize I wasn't advocating that Q be compared to other races, right?

And DEATH covered the Sublimed issue.

[XaLEv]

(For example [Culture books - "Look to Windward"] one Sublimed race altered various universal constants and wrote their names in stars just to show that they could in order to prove their claims to their unascended "Descendants" that they could)

"In any event, to Sublime was to retire from the normal life of the galaxy. The few real rather than imagined exceptions to this rule had consisted of little more than eccentricities: some of the Sublimed came back and removed their home planet, or wrote their names in nebulae or sculpted on some other vast scale, or set up curious monuments or left incomprehensible artifacts dotted about space or on planets, or returned in some bizarre form for a usually very brief and topologically limited appearance for what one could only imagine was some sort of ritual."

Do you have a quote to support your altering universal constants thing?

[Lord Zentei]

Why is it that Q-fapping keeps occouring in even the hallowed halls of SDN?

You do realize I wasn't advocating that Q be compared to other races, right?

It certainly looked that way, at least vis a vis the others you mentioned ((Xeelee, Ascended, etc). The post suggested that you thought of them as being in the same ballpark, so to speak.

I'm not at all sure that they can bend the laws of nature to their will in any sense. The general consensus around here, at least, is that they rely on a lot of smoke and mirrors plus souped-up Trek tech.

[NecronLord]

'Sublime' in this context appears to be in the sense of 'skip to gaseous state.'

The Sublimed are going to be staggeringly powerful, anyway, given that they didn't seem to regard the Excession as anything particularly impressive.

[Rye]

I doubt the sublimed would find anything "physical" to be interesting or impressive, I don't think that would mean they're beyond the excession builders when it comes to sheer potential from a standard scifi point of view. Sublimed entities seem to be in Nirvana or like the ascended ancients, I liked how Banks represented the "about to sublime" types as irritating religious guys that are full of themselves, and that subliming is considered the apex of development, but not necessarily what everyone wants to achieve.

It'd be like talking to an ancient, and then going, "yeah, but you can't do this," and then farting.

[NecronLord]

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the 'blissful ascension' cliche if possible though.

[Keevan_Colton]

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the 'blissful ascension' cliche if possible though.

Who knows if it's really blissful, it might just be like shifting to another state and discovering that happiness and sadness and excitment went with the glands you used to have and now you'd like nothing more than to be what you are now because you've just had a cosmic lobotomy done.

[CaptJodan]

It certainly looked that way, at least vis a vis the others you mentioned ((Xeelee, Ascended, etc). The post suggested that you thought of them as being in the same ballpark, so to speak.

I'm not at all sure that they can bend the laws of nature to their will in any sense. The general consensus around here, at least, is that they rely on a lot of smoke and mirrors plus souped-up Trek tech.

Ok, well I suppose I was comparing them to the Ascended, yes (I don't want to make any claims to the Xeelee as I know little or nothing about them). My intent isn't to get into a discussion as to whether Q can "change the cosmological constant of the universe" as he put it or not. But I felt that Q was perhaps closer to what one in the Culture universe would call Sublime than they are to the actual Culture.

Then again, the description of the Sublime doesn't fit well with John DeLance Q himself. He's got his fingers into everyone's buisness (though perhaps for the rest of the Q it is...they seemed awfully bored and lobotimized). Was just trying to demonstrate comparisons with technological races shouldn't be made with Q as Q's powers SEEM innate.

[mr friendly guy]

I'm not at all sure that they can bend the laws of nature to their will in any sense. The general consensus around here, at least, is that they rely on a lot of smoke and mirrors plus souped-up Trek tech.

They only claimed to be able to alter the laws of physics. But then Harry claimed a 54 isoton explosive would destroy a small planet and how many people besides rabid trekkies accept that piece of dialogue.

Personally I think they have innate powers and supplement it with technology, just as running shoes supplement my innate ability to run. Usually though, that innate vs tech argument isn't that big a deal to me as I am more interested in quantifying their capabilities.

[The Nomad]

Do you have a quote to support your altering universal constants thing?

The Chelgrian-Puen in LtW altered physicals constants in several experiments so that their left-behind brethrens would IIRC make faster technological progress (if I remember this right, this would mean small scale altering of physical constants is possible with Culture tech - hell, they can shield themselves from the deletrious effects of the higher value of c in hyperspace ).

[Lord Zentei]

The thing is... they haven't actually done anything that would allow one to assume that they had godlike powers, as opposed to using souped up Trek Tech and smoke and mirrors - see numerous Q threads on this very forum (some of which have actually ended in the HoS).

Their whole presentation says "trickster wizards" when you scrutinize them carefully enough. The way they are cast makes one want to assume that they can do something unless it is conclusively demonstrated that they cannot; it is their "glamour". Of course, that may very well be their mode of defence. Moreover to subscribe to such is a fallacy ("burden of proof" and "no limits", specifically).

Vis a vis the Culture, the main issue that would make them a threat is their capacity for time travel, though I don't know how much their use of this ability has been demonstrated as a strategic weapon.

[NecronLord]

The Q have no varifiable time travel ability. Q is unable to even accurately predict the future a few years ahead - look how wildly out his simulation of the future was in All Good Things. Given that we can demonstrate this 'time travel' of his to be false, it's safe to assume that without more solid evidence, all his other time travel (especially the bits that are blatantly illogical) efforts are false, and merely illusions.

[Sir Sirius]

Time travel in Trekverse appears to be trivially easy. The Feddies have done it both on purpose and by accident, the Borg have done it, the 29th century Feddies appear to do it all the time it etc. It would be rather bizarre if the Q were unable to duplica something that can be done with a Connia, an old Klingon Warbird and a combination of a malfunctioning Romulan cloaking device and a transporter.

[NecronLord]

And none of that is strategically useful, either, as they create alternate timelines, they wouldn't stop the Culture kicking the everloving crap out of the Q in the present.

Nevertheless, the Q have demonstrated no time travel ability. Yes, they've less varifiable incidents to their name than Kirk.