Is the Culture Overrated?

[Big Orange]

Does anyone else think the Culture is an overrated sci-fi power? Sure the Culture can wipe out the majority of other sci-fi powers and races from most mainstream sci-fi series, but there other civilisations that I know of that could conceivably stomp the Culture with ease (such as the Q, Daleks, Time Lords, Xeelee, Organians and possibly the Ascended Ancients).

And even in the Culture universe itself, the Culture's position is not exactly unchallanged, despite being a galactic superpower - they came under serious attack from another space empire, the Idirans, had other known galactic rivals such as the Homomda (which were implied to have a tech level comparable to the Culture) and the Culture itself has not even left the Milky Way properly yet (although there are dwarf galaxies and Andromeda could be reached)!

Then there was the Out of Context situtation in Excession with that enigmatic black sphere and also the implication of earlier ancient races that have Sublimed.

But don't get me wrong I've got nothing against the Culture and I'm a recently converted Iain (M) Banks fan, but I'm slightly turned off by the fact the Culture seems to be used as a lazy trump card in many Vs. arguments, but the Culture novels themselves are not widely appreciated as the excellent stories that they are (despite the almost silly ubertech).

[NecronLord]

Your argument is incoherent. Few people rate the Culture above the Time Lords (barring the stupid-ass-backwards ones that took six hundred years to open a door from the EU) or even the Time War daleks in an unrestricted fight.

No, they're not overrated, except perhaps, in your mind.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I do get tired of people (namely the entire of SB.com's versus forum) who keep dreaming up ever more stupid scenarios to defeat the Culture, simply because they're something myself and a few others introduced into the mainstream that, shock horror, happen to be able to curbstomp the Imperials from SW. The Xeelee turned up after a while, as did the Time Lords, but still the debates continued.

Honestly, they're a Type-III civilisation easy, but they have limits. I honestly really only care about the stories more than their capabilities, which are a mixture of realistic mixed with far out fantastical stuff. I much prefer hard SF, yet the Culture still greatly appeal.

I'd really suggest getting past their insane powers in areas and focusing on how one makes a novel with an antagonist worthy of a good plot that can't be magicked away by their super powers.

[CaptJodan]

The Q and the Ascended Ancients would likely fall under the category of "Sublimed" so I doubt anyone would seriously make the claim that the Culture could defeat such powers. Most people use the Culture in a tech debate as just that, a TECH debate, and not against races that are somehow superior by nature (those that do use such excuses "Q can beat the Empire, RAR!") are morons. For a technological species not dependent on being Sublimed or have some innate talent for handwavium, the Culture is near the top of the tree and I don't think many see them as overrated.

Your argument that there was a war with the Idirans in their own universe or that there was an OoC situtation sent by a Sublimed race doesn't mean the Culture isn't insanely powerful in their own right, even when compared with most other races.

I suspect they are used as a trump card because they are not "God-like" beings. They, like the Time Lords (and possibly the Xeelee, I don’t know I don’t know anything about them really) represent a technological highpoint. They can be compared with others on that basis. They're roughly the upper limit you can get for a species before it can willingly manipulate time and cause things to happen through handwavium.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The Xeelee have the benefit of being around for a long time, having little internal strife and being able to think up amazing new technologies. If you give a species a billion years of spacefaring history, they'll likely do things we wouldn't expect feasible. In some respects, a lot of other sci-fi species are underpowered by their age. Sure, they may have FTL and all that, but there are other technologies invented by think-tanks today that don't get included.

There's always a certain Clarke law anyway.

[OmegaGuy]

That's true, the Vorlons for example if they've been around for as long as they say should be way more advanced.

[Big Orange]

Your argument is incoherent. Few people rate the Culture above the Time Lords (barring the stupid-ass-backwards ones that took six hundred years to open a door from the EU) or even the Time War daleks in an unrestricted fight.

No, they're not overrated, except perhaps, in your mind.

Yes my argument is incoherent, but what I'm saying is that while the Culture are very, very powerful, they still have limits and maybe there are too many sci-fi debaters out there who assume that the Culture are the be all and end all in sci-fi, when it's not entirely true - the Culture can be defeated by a minority of sci-fi powers from other fictions and even in the Culture-verse itself the Culture is not necessarily at top of the pile, what with the Homomda and Sublimed sharing the galaxy with them as well.

Then you got to take into account the Culture's comparatively sluggish FTL travel as well, even though nearly everything else is beefed up in terms of weapon ranges, sheer combat speed, AI and industrial capacity. And I know the Xelee, Daleks and Time Lords could beat the Culture since they are multi-galactic civilisations that have vastly superior FTL and time travel tech (with the Xeelee using black-holes as ubercomputers).

Honestly, they're a Type-III civilisation easy, but they have limits.

I think the main tech deficit the Culture has is their FTL, which is one of the main reasons why the Culture are still mostly based in their galaxy of origin and not gone trans-galactice despite their power - also there are still hundreds of weaker civilisations in their backyard that are not directly under Culture influence (with Contact still mapping out the Milky Way and Special Circumstances quietly scouting ahead).

And in The Player of Games the Culture were pretty wary of directly attacking and occupying the Empire of Azad, even though the Azadians were a relatively primitive interstellar race and were only in a smallish dwarf galaxy. So they can't do everything.

I'd really suggest getting past their insane powers in areas and focusing on how one makes a novel with an antagonist worthy of a good plot that can't be magicked away by their super powers.

That's how I often view the Cultue novels and they don't really dwell on powerful the Culture are, but mostly concentrate on a good story.

The Xeelee have the benefit of being around for a long time, having little internal strife and being able to think up amazing new technologies. If you give a species a billion years of spacefaring history, they'll likely do things we wouldn't expect feasible. In some respects, a lot of other sci-fi species are underpowered by their age. Sure, they may have FTL and all that, but there are other technologies invented by think-tanks today that don't get included.

Well the Culture is "only" 9000 years old and it's implied in Excession that the Culture already had the potential to Sublime millennia ago (while the Xeelee are nearly as old as the universe itself and are direct descendents of beings that first evolved in the opening seconds of the Big Bang). And I do agree with OmegaGuy that the Vorlons and the Shadows seem pretty weak if they are supposedly beings that were already exploring the galaxy millions of years ago.

[mr friendly guy]

And I do agree with OmegaGuy that the Vorlons and the Shadows seem pretty weak if they are supposedly beings that were already exploring the galaxy millions of years ago.

I thought that can be explained because either a) there are no more laws of physics to discover and hence build better tech b) they are a "static" culture.

Clearly a) is wrong since the third space aliens have force fields on their ships, and I think b) is more likely. Consider that a thousand year old Shadow battlecrab is still considered a ship of the line, suggesting both the Vorlons and their enemies haven't advanced very much in the last thousand years.

[Big Orange]

Clearly a) is wrong since the third space aliens have force fields on their ships, and I think b) is more likely. Consider that a thousand year old Shadow battlecrab is still considered a ship of the line, suggesting both the Vorlons and their enemies haven't advanced very much in the last thousand years.

Although I could only vaguely remember most of B5 (I was less than 14 at the time and the story archs were dense) but was a First One race leaving their home galaxy tantamount to Subliming? It was implied that the other First Ones had "Sublimed", with only the Vorlons and Shadows left behind with their silly argument and thousands of young races to fuck around with. Maybe that is why they both mostly went stagnant for millions of years.

[NecronLord]

That's true, the Vorlons for example if they've been around for as long as they say should be way more advanced.

Why? They're mind bogglingly advanced, compared to the technologies we're ever likely to get. - They've got FTL, for chrissakes!

It's just that the lesser races have these (mostly from the First Ones leaving easily reverse engineered jump gates, or in the case of the Minbari, the Vorlons actually giving them FTL) too.

[NecronLord]

And in The Player of Games the Culture were pretty wary of directly attacking and occupying the Empire of Azad, even though the Azadians were a relatively primitive interstellar race and were only in a smallish dwarf galaxy. So they can't do everything.

Yes. Contact and Special Circumstances go out of their way not to harm civillians. If the Azad thought the Culture was coming to get them, they'd go beserk.

[NecronLord]

Clearly a) is wrong since the third space aliens have force fields on their ships,

I wouldn't presume that the Vorlons are unable to make such things. Ulkesh had a personal shield on his encounter suit.

The fact that their ships don't have such things is probably more to do with their ships not being designed to fight a serious opponent - or of course, vorlon ship-armour might actually be better than force fields.

[Big Orange]

And in The Player of Games the Culture were pretty wary of directly attacking and occupying the Empire of Azad, even though the Azadians were a relatively primitive interstellar race and were only in a smallish dwarf galaxy. So they can't do everything.

Yes. Contact and Special Circumstances go out of their way not to harm civillians. If the Azad thought the Culture was coming to get them, they'd go beserk.

Well how would they know what hit them when the Culture launches a direct attack? All it would take would be a handful of ROUs a few minutes to effectorise evey single military asset within the Empire, from the largest warship to the smallest pistol and the Azadians would not have anything meaningful to go beserk with. But it is insinuated that the Culture would not like to occupy the Empire (following the overt invasion) and would fear a drain on it's resources (plus the associated bad propaganda).

[NecronLord]

Well how would they know what hit them when the Culture launches a direct attack? All it would take would be a handful of ROUs a few minutes to effectorise evey single military asset within the Empire, from the largest warship to the smallest pistol and the Azadians would not have anything meaningful to go beserk with. But it is insinuated that the Culture would not like to occupy the Empire (following the overt invasion) and would fear a drain on it's resources (plus the associated bad propaganda).

The Azad were multi system - indeed, able to reach the main galaxy, IIRC - they'd know that the Culture was coming to get them when they started losing contact with their systems. At which point, it causes a flurry of panic, and struggling to liquidate all the witnesses to brutality, and so forth.

Even the Culture has to avoid seeming to shit on 'international law' or people think badly of them. There's powers out there that can stomp all over them if they so much as look at them funny, and involved powers at 'parity' - what's more, the way the Culture really dealt with the Azad was far more productive than just sending in the GCUs.

[SCVN 2812]

I think the comparison to the Vorlons might be an unfair one. There seems to be an upper limit in Babylon 5 to the practical use of science with the First Ones sitting at or very near that limit where they just can't squeeze anything more of out the knowledge that they have. As opposed to other universes such as Dr Who, the Culture, Star Trek and from what I've read, the Xeelee, which have no known upper limit.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The Xeelee do very little with regards to impossible things. They simply do them on massive scales, which is easy when you're that old. Your argument actually falls flat on its face when you accept they have FTL: a totally impossible technology.

So when I hear people criticise the likes of, say, the Conjoiners or Inhibitors, I get a laugh out of the fact that those same people vouch for species that have FTL drives and comms. Because we know the limits of science involve breaking relativity, causality and the light speed barrier.

[Big Orange]

The Azad were multi system - indeed, able to reach the main galaxy, IIRC - they'd know that the Culture was coming to get them when they started losing contact with their systems. At which point, it causes a flurry of panic, and struggling to liquidate all the witnesses to brutality, and so forth.

The ROU/GCU task force could be inserted throughout the full breadth of the Empire by hyperspace without tipping off the Azadians and they could remain undetected when deployed; the GSVs could jam all means of communication and transportation throughout the Empire of Azad with their effectors, while the ROUs and GCUs could neutralise all the space fleets and ground force garrisons before the Azadians would realise what is going on and deploy properly.

It is also implied in TPoG that Special Circumstances had operatives already inserted into Azad society causing problems and Contact ships could displace trillions upon trillions of drones and knife missiles into anywhere of importance (ala the Cyberman invasion of Earth, but with vastly greater precision and speed).

And with all that going on throughout the Empire, I doubt the Azadians would be organised or quick enough to start massacring their prisoners and underclass, especially if their com system is fried and their guns have melted (unless the Azad soldiers and police use their initiative and start killing with knifes, clubs, swords etc).

Even the Culture has to avoid seeming to shit on 'international law' or people think badly of them. There's powers out there that can stomp all over them if they so much as look at them funny, and involved powers at 'parity' - what's more, the way the Culture really dealt with the Azad was far more productive than just sending in the GCUs.

That's what I mean by "overrated" - as wanked as the Culture is, they're still restricted by wider galactic politics, the Sublime are well above them and there are races out there who have a similar tech to them (the Homomda and Idirans rival the Culture - the Affront are maybe five levels below again, while the Empire of Azad itself perhaps on a similar level to the Humanist/Governance [?] factions from UoW and the Vreccile Economic Community featured in TSotA).

I do understand that directly attacking and occupying the Empire of Azad would be a very bad PR move on the Culture's part; it was strongly implied as such in the book and that course of action could be compared to America invading Iraq and Afghanistan with "good intentions".

[Admiral Valdemar]

I don't see how it's analogous, the Empire of Azad idea that is. They didn't show anything that rivalled what a single GSV could muster, so if Contact and SC removed all inhibitions, there's no reason why they couldn't wipe out every last one of them. That they don't is down to their method of doing thing subtly, rather than doing what the modern US does. The Homomda are a different story, but we don't know much about them. There's little to suggest the Culture, if put on a war footing, couldn't give them a good run for their money. It takes decades for Contact to really get the Culture gunned up for proper, full scale warfare after evacuating orbitals and so on.

[NecronLord]

The ROU/GCU task force could be inserted throughout the full breadth of the Empire by hyperspace without tipping off the Azadians

I recall nothing to suggest that the Empire of Azad lack hyperspace technologies and sensors of their own.

and they could remain undetected when deployed;

'Course they could.

the GSVs could jam all means of communication and transportation throughout the Empire of Azad with their effectors,

Uhuh. How many GSVs do you think they have in the area? Diverting hundreds of GSVs to the arse end of beyond, as opposed to sending one (1) SC agent...

while the ROUs and GCUs could neutralise all the space fleets and ground force garrisons before the Azadians would realise what is going on and deploy properly.

They don't have to deploy everybody - just go space-nazi and finish off their various political prisoners and slaves.

It is also implied in TPoG that Special Circumstances had operatives already inserted into Azad society causing problems and Contact ships could displace trillions upon trillions of drones and knife missiles into anywhere of importance (ala the Cyberman invasion of Earth, but with vastly greater precision and speed).

Trillions of drones? That's a sizeable portion of the Culture's total population.

And with all that going on throughout the Empire, I doubt the Azadians would be organised

Because fascists suck at organising stuff!

or quick enough to start massacring their prisoners and underclass, especially if their com system is fried and their guns have melted (unless the Azad soldiers and police use their initiative and start killing with knifes, clubs, swords etc).

Stop wanking. None of this is even all that likely. They can't just get the drop on a sizable interstellar empire in their own universe like that without being detected in advance.

Contact is continuously overseeing thousands or maybe millions of operations. They can't just up sticks and go jihad against the Azad at the drop of the hat. Especially when there's easier ways to do it.

That's what I mean by "overrated" - as wanked as the Culture is, they're still restricted by wider galactic politics, the Sublime are well above them and there are races out there who have a similar tech to them (the Homomda and Idirans rival the Culture - the Affront are maybe five levels below again, while the Empire of Azad itself perhaps on a similar level to the Humanist/Governance [?] factions from UoW and the Vreccile Economic Community featured in TSotA).

The Homomda are the only equivtech civilisation we know about, and at that point in the chronology, they're rather behind. The status of the Idirans seems unknown.

The problem is, if they keep going 'George W Bush, RAR' eventually, as they say in Excession, one of the Sublimed is going to get ticked off, step in and take all the toys out of the playground - one wrong step against, say, the aerosphere builders and they're fucked.

I do understand that directly attacking and occupying the Empire of Azad would be a very bad PR move on the Culture's part; it was strongly implied as such in the book and that course of action could be compared to America invading Iraq and Afghanistan with "good intentions".

Not to mention one hell of a waste of their time and effort, when they can just round up a good games player...

[NecronLord]

Frankly. Special Circumstance's methods work. Going in overtly with overwhelming force and smashing up the 'previous regime' does not. At best, it's going to leave the locals embittered and angry, and when they do reach parity with the Culture, they might think of revenge.

They don't like to be seen as imperialists - there's enough of that in the British-Empire-Appalling-Horrors style in their universe for them to be wary of it. Hell, they discourage immigration because it looks like covert imperialism.

[The Nomad]

I don't get where Big O is getting with this Azad related shit. It's pretty clear the Culture never intervenes directly in the affairs of lesser civilizations. Fuck, they sent one ship, one man and one drone, and the result is the same (probably better in the long, long term ( the consequences of the Idiran war were predicted and measured over hundreds or thousands of years)) : one Empire down. That's efficiency.

Besides, where the fuck do you think the Azadian got their effector from ? Hint : Flere Imsaho identifies the device as Homomdan-related. Perhaps could it be because the Homomdan gave them one, just to piss on the schemes of the Culture : while they get along nicely most of the time, remember the Homomdan Empire went at war against the Culture partially because of the Culture's evangelical meddling within the galaxy (the other reason being their feeling of kinship with the Idiran, them being one of the only tripedal species in the universe (sort of like you'd instinctevely be tempted to side with elf like aliens rather than bizarre insectoids in a war)).

The Culture is not alone in the Galaxy : it may have managed to catch up with other Involved at tremendous speed (the Homomdan were first level Involved tens of thousands of years before the Culture emerged and finally caught up with them), but it doesn't mean it can't contend with the seven other equal or greater civilizations mentionned in LtW, should they decide the Culture is becoming too disturbingly similar to an Aggressive Hegemonizing Swarm.

[The Nomad]

And the C'tan beat me to it. A couple of comments though :

I recall nothing to suggest that the Empire of Azad lack hyperspace technologies and sensors of their own.

They are limited to warp drives, though they might have primitive hyperspace sensors ( the CAT had a warp drive, but could detect hyperlight).

The Homomda are the only equivtech civilisation we know about, and at that point in the chronology, they're rather behind. The status of the Idirans seems unknown.

LtW states that between seven and twelve Involved civilizations have the means to stand up to the Culture. The details are unclear, though. The Idirans have IIRC been assimilated, though some of them flew to the Magellanic Clouds and maintain a level of guerilla warfare.

[Big Orange]

Besides, where the fuck do you think the Azadian got their effector from ? Hint : Flere Imsaho identifies the device as Homomdan-related. Perhaps could it be because the Homomdan gave them one, just to piss on the schemes of the Culture : while they get along nicely most of the time, remember the Homomdan Empire went at war against the Culture partially because of the Culture's evangelical meddling within the galaxy (the other reason being their feeling of kinship with the Idiran, them being one of the only tripedal species in the universe (sort of like you'd instinctevely be tempted to side with elf like aliens rather than bizarre insectoids in a war)).

In one of the essays on the Idiran War from Consider Phlebas the Homomda never directly fought the Culture and both galactic powers maintained peaceful diplomatic relations throughout the hostilities - the Homomda were involved with the Idirans in that they had the Idirans on a sort of lend lease and were lenting out sections of their space fleet for the Idirans to fight the Culture with. There was never official overt war between the Culture or the Homomda; it seems more like a cold war of sorts with the Culture being the fresh and relatively new power on the galactic stage, while the Homomda is perhaps in the middle of a multi-millennia long slide.

[Big Orange]

*snip*

OK, I agree with you and disagree with you on some points: a Culture fleet could manufacture trillions of drones, if a lone GSV could build hundreds of thousands of ships within it's holding bays (although that took years), I doubt the Azadians had a fleet that could detect Culture ships in most circumstances or keep up with them and they would be militarily paralysed before they would realise what was happening - however I fully agree that pulling off a operation like that would be a strain on Contact with the amount of ships and hardware involved, while the news of the invasion itself would get out to the rest of the galaxy and it would cast a very bad light on the Culture, with them looking like a bunch of bullies if they are kicking around smaller races in such a tactless manner.

Sending one person in to subtly undermine the Azadian political system from within seems to be the more sensible option and there would be no overt signs of Culture meddling and chest beating. And in The Player of Games, it seemed like the Azad authorities were already mass killing their political dissidents and minorities (with their tortures and executions broadcast on a encrypted channel for the sadistic amusment of the Imperial elite). But I do agree what the Culture did in The Player of Games seemed to be the smarter way (they were also trying to be very low key during Use of Weapons when they sent in the elite SC agent, Zakalwe, to retreve that retired politician from house arrest).

[NecronLord]

OK, I agree with you and disagree with you on some points: a Culture fleet could manufacture trillions of drones, if a lone GSV could build hundreds of thousands of ships within it's holding bays (although that took years),

Which it didn't, ninny. I posted this in a recent thread - 90,624, over four decades. And when you've done that, presuming they're S1+ drones, they don't have to do anything for that GSV. They're full culture citizens - and they'd be pretty peeved about being made for such a pointless excersise, no?

I doubt the Azadians had a fleet that could detect Culture ships

There is no data.

in most circumstances or keep up with them and they would be militarily paralysed before they would realise what was happening - however I fully agree that pulling off a operation like that would be a strain on Contact with the amount of ships and hardware involved, while the news of the invasion itself would get out to the rest of the galaxy and it would cast a very bad light on the Culture, with them looking like a bunch of bullies if they are kicking around smaller races in such a tactless manner.

Sending one person in to subtly undermine the Azadian political system from within seems to be the more sensible option and there would be no overt signs of Culture meddling and chest beating. And in The Player of Games, it seemed like the Azad authorities were already mass killing their political dissidents and minorities (with their tortures and executions broadcast on a encrypted channel for the sadistic amusment of the Imperial elite).

PoG was published long ago - 80s, I think. We know by now.

But I do agree what the Culture did in The Player of Games seemed to be the smarter way (they were also trying to be very low key during Use of Weapons when they sent in the elite SC agent, Zakalwe, to retreve that retired politician from house arrest).

Yes. They always are.