What if the US allied with the Central Powers during WWI?

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What if the US allied with the Central Powers during WWI?

Post by Sidewinder »

As the title states, how would the history of the 20th Century have changed if the US had chosen to ally with Germany instead of the UK and France during World War I?

If you're curious why the US would do so, hell, there are lots of skilled alternate universe writers on this forum. Someone would find a possible reason. Maybe the British Prime Minister decides to forcefully bring the US on the Allies' side by having Canada invade the US, occupy Washington, and replace the then president with someone more supportive of the UK-- and that this PM got drunk and blabbed details of this plan to the US ambassador, who went public with this and gave the average American an itchy trigger finger towards the British and the Canadians.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Germany wins, Germany's defeat never spurs the rise of National Socialism and Hitler never comes to power, France's Colonial Empire gets bites taken out of it, and maybe falls to Communism or Fascism, but without Germany's industrial strength or militaristic inclinations, it probably won't conquer the world.
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Post by Dominus Atheos »

Communism may have never come about.
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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Dominus Atheos wrote:Communism may have never come about.
I would doubt that. America joined the war just after the fall of Kerensky's provisional government, and Germany wouldn't support the Whites, who might have continued the war, over the Reds, who sought a peace with Germany. Besides, even if Russia hadn't fallen, Marxism was catching on throughout parts of the world where the poor were seemingly oppressed by the Aristocracy or Imperialism.

However, the Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary would probably survive a bit longer before being torn apart by nationalism - but since it wouldn't be nationalism enforced by outside arbitrators and conquerors, there probably would be a shift in perceptions of the end.

Besides, Mustafa Kemal was badass.
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Post by Sidewinder »

Dominus Atheos wrote:Communism may have never come about.
If Tsar Nicholas II was smart and declared, "Fuck the French and the English, I'm getting nothing but trouble from a war with Germany, so I'm negotiating a separate peace with Cousin Willy," the February Revolution either wouldn't happen, or wouldn't have been followed by the October Revolution thanks to the Provisional Government's stupid decision to continue the war against Germany.

Communism might still come about Russia, but it with the soldiers less disgruntled and the economy less fucked up by an extended war, it wouldn't have had the influence it had in our world.

Or maybe it would come about in the UK or France, with angry college students screaming for the death of the King and President who got them fighting a losing war against the Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Bulgarians, Turks, and "greedy capitalist parasites" of the Americans. Of course, the UK and France combined don't have the resources to match the USSR in our world, and the Cold War would've been a lot colder, with Americans viewing the French with apathy and ignoring the "Frogs" as they bitch about all the weapons stamped "Made in America" that are exported to the Central Powers,
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Prozac the Robert »

What did the US navy look like at that point? Is it likely to either seek or be forced into a decisive battle by the RN?
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Post by Sidewinder »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:However, the Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary would probably survive a bit longer before being torn apart by nationalism - but since it wouldn't be nationalism enforced by outside arbitrators and conquerors, there probably would be a shift in perceptions of the end.
Germany might offer massive amounts of aid to their WWI allies to make sure the Turkish and Austro-Hungarian governments remain friendly with them. Most of the aid money would probably be used to buy weapons stamped "Gefertigt in Deutschland" or "Made in America" for crushing nationalistic insurgencies.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Sidewinder »

Prozac the Robert wrote:What did the US navy look like at that point? Is it likely to either seek or be forced into a decisive battle by the RN?
From Wikipedia:
The [Great White Fleet's] cruise had the desired effect, and US power was subsequently taken more seriously. However, the Taft and Wilson administrations failed to capitalize on the Navy's progress, and by World War I the Navy did not have sufficient strength or credibility compared to Britain or Germany to guarantee the neutrality that President Wilson desired.

World War I

Despite US declarations of neutrality and German accountability for its unrestricted submarine warfare, in 1915 Gulflight and more famously Lusitania were sunk. The US reaction was to contemplate increased funding for the Navy, although the bill went through six months of debate in Congress before being passed. When the war began for the US in 1917, the Navy's role was mostly limited to convoy escort and troop transport, and the laying of a minefield across the North Sea.
Still, with German subs PROTECTING US merchant ships by attacking British commerce raiders, the High Seas Fleet would probably do a lot better against the Royal Navy.

Don't forget, time is on America's side, as the advantages in human and material resources and manufacturing capacity means there's still more than enough American steel to build tanks to guard the US-Canadian border AND build a fleet that would bomb/torpedo the shit out of the Royal Navy.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Wanderer »

Hmm... A certain Austrian with a Danny Chaplin mustache goes on to become a world renowned enviromentalist, animal rights, and anti-vice(smoking, drinking) spokes person. His biggest triumph being to get Automakers to standarize to at least 40mpg on gasoline.
Its amazing once you remove the fact the guy hated Jews with a murderous veangence.

But, yeah the Holocaust never happens. Israel might not form and that could save a few headaches.
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Post by starfury »

What about japan, they are allied to Britian and France in this timeline, US will have to crush them and the Royal navy. since the Anglo-Japanese alliance is still in effect here.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Not necessarily, the Japanese could choose to not get tangeled with Uncle Sam, and it's highly unlikely the Americans would want to fight them. However, Japan was still quite sore about the Russo-Japanese War and the way Teddy Roosvelt handled the peace negociations.
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Post by Sidewinder »

starfury wrote:What about japan, they are allied to Britian and France in this timeline, US will have to crush them and the Royal navy. since the Anglo-Japanese alliance is still in effect here.
From Wikipedia
Seizing the opportunity of Berlin's distraction with [World War I] and wanting to expand its sphere of influence in China, Japan declared war on Germany on August 23, 1914 and quickly occupied German-leased territories in China's Shandong Province and the Mariana, Caroline, and Marshall Islands in the Pacific. On November 7, Jiaozhou surrendered to Japan.

With its Western allies heavily involved in the war in Europe, Japan sought further to consolidate its position in China by presenting the Twenty-One Demands to China in January, 1915. Besides expanding its control over the German holdings, Manchuria, and Inner Mongolia, Japan also sought joint ownership of a major mining and metallurgical complex in central China, prohibitions on China's ceding or leasing any coastal areas to a third power, and miscellaneous other political, economic, and military controls, which, if achieved, would have reduced China to a Japanese protectorate. In the face of slow negotiations with the Chinese government, widespread anti-Japanese sentiments in China, and international condemnation, Japan withdrew the final group of demands, and treaties were signed in May, 1915.

Japan's hegemony in northern China and other parts of Asia was facilitated through other international agreements. One with Russia in 1916 helped further secure Japan's influence in Manchuria and Inner Mongolia, and agreements with France, Britain, and the United States in 1917 recognized Japan's territorial gains in China and the Pacific. The Nishihara Loans (named after Nishihara Kamezo, Tokyo's representative in Beijing) of 1917 and 1918, while aiding the Chinese government, put China still deeper into Japan's debt. Toward the end of the war, Japan increasingly filled orders for its European allies' needed war material, thus helping to diversify the country's industry, increase its exports, and transform Japan from a debtor to a creditor nation for the first time.

Japan's power in Asia grew with the demise of the tsarist regime in Russia and the disorder the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution left in Siberia. Wanting to seize the opportunity, the Japanese army planned to occupy Siberia as far west as Lake Baikal. To do so, Japan had to negotiate an agreement with China allowing the transit of Japanese troops through Chinese territory. Although the force was scaled back to avoid antagonizing the United States, more than 70,000 Japanese troops joined the much smaller units of the Allied Expeditionary Force sent to Siberia in 1918.

World War I permitted Japan, which fought on the side of the victorious Allies, to expand its influence in Asia and its territorial holdings in the Pacific. Acting virtually independently of the civil government, the Japanese navy seized Germany's Micronesian colonies.

On October 9, 1916, Terauchi Masatake (1852–1919) took over as prime minister from Okuma Shigenobu (1838–1922). On November 2, 1917, the Lansing-Ishii Agreement noted the recognization of Japan's interests in China and pledges of keeping an "Open Door Policy". In July 1918, the Siberian Expedition was launched with the deployment of 75,000 Japanese troops. In August 1918, rice riots erupted in towns and cities throughout Japan.
The Japanese economy wasn't strong enough to let the military fight against the US. If the US militarily intervened early in the war, Japan might decide to become a German ally and sieze territory occupied by France and the UK. If the US intervened later in the war, Japan might negotiate a separate peace with Germany, trying to keep the territories they siezed while avoiding further combat.

If Japan decides to continue attack American-held territory, e.g., the Phillipines, they're toast. The US industrial and military capabilities in WWI is not as great as it will be in WWII, but it's still significantly greater than Japan's at the time. Time will still be on America's side-- even if the Canadians attempt to invade-- and the Japanese military will be crushed by the number of soldiers, sailors, marines, tanks, artillery, and warships coming from across the Pacific.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by acesand8s »

The Entente is going to be in trouble on the Western Front. Not only will they lack the influx of American troops in 1918, they're going to have to send troops to Canada to defend it (or just abandon it to its fate), and have to allocate more manpower to their own economies to make up for goods lost to the United States.

Unfortunately, the US merchant marine is going to get the same treatment it got in the Civil War and the same treatment the German merchant marine received in the First World War. Any freighters not in/near friendly ports before the declaration of war are going to be lost to the might of the Royal Navy. Though the USN had a respectable battle line (especially when one considers that the British need their fleet in Scapa Flow to defend against the German High Seas Fleet) it lacked the cruiser force to protect overseas commerce.

The end result will likely see Germany force Russia's capitulation as in OTL and eventually do the same to France. Britain, with Canada falling to the United States at some point, will probably sue for peace at that point. I can't see them continuing the struggle in the Napoleonic Wars fashion, especially with an industrialized American opposing it.

Japan is probably going to take the Philippines with a bit of help from the Royal Navy's Pacific squadron. Guam and Wake will likely get the same treatment (I don't even think there was a garrison on Wake), though Hawaii is probably too far for the Japanese to take and hold. Will the US try to retake them? They wouldn't be able to try until the Royal Navy is out of the way. Would the American people support several more years of war after fighting the First World War?
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Post by Lord Woodlouse »

It's likely such a move would precipitate an almost instant sueing for peace, with Germany gaining favourable conditions from the French and the UK just saying "screw you guys, I'm going home!" without much effect.

In 30 years I see Imperial Russia as the power everyone is scared of, not Germany. America becomes isolationist again, and Britain and Germany set their eyes on Russia. France maybe sticks with Russia on account of their now extra history with Germany.

Interesting times. :)
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

The direst problem for Britain is economic; it went deeply into debt to the USA to fund the war, without that bankroll they'll be in trouble. Also, a considerable portion of British food supplies came direct from the Great Plains, so the loss of these shipments would cause a crisis in Britain. The entrance of the USN wouldn't be immediately fatal, but it would require the attention of the Home Fleet to be diverted in two directions, meaning that it's efforts to contain and/or run down the Hochseeflotte will be substantially more perilous, and less resources will be available to ASW operations. The UK is basically fucked.

This will have a cascade effect, diminishing British strength will mean that the French will themselves degrade faster. The AEF probably won't even get to Germany, because France will fold before it has finished mobilizing.
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Post by Surlethe »

Would the United States come out of this with Canada, or would Britain cave too quickly? Or would the US just ignore Canada?
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

I think it's possible the Canadians would go "fuck you guys" to the Brits if there was a chance of military involvement against the US. It is suicide for Canada to go to war against the United States, so they'll probably try to avoid it at all costs.
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Post by Lord Woodlouse »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:The direst problem for Britain is economic; it went deeply into debt to the USA to fund the war, without that bankroll they'll be in trouble. Also, a considerable portion of British food supplies came direct from the Great Plains, so the loss of these shipments would cause a crisis in Britain. The entrance of the USN wouldn't be immediately fatal, but it would require the attention of the Home Fleet to be diverted in two directions, meaning that it's efforts to contain and/or run down the Hochseeflotte will be substantially more perilous, and less resources will be available to ASW operations. The UK is basically fucked.

This will have a cascade effect, diminishing British strength will mean that the French will themselves degrade faster. The AEF probably won't even get to Germany, because France will fold before it has finished mobilizing.
I'm fairly certain the UK in the Great War was a net financier to other nations. But, as I say above (and for some reasons covered) I think the UK would be the first to go with peace (which I'm sure the Germans would accept, since I doubt the Americans can actively help them for a good long time). Without British assistance I reckon the French sign an embarrassing peace treaty or sign an even more embarrassing one as the Germans march into Paris. I doubt the Germans would actively conquer the French, though.

I might be wrong in my last post, though. Since this basically leaves Germany in it's most favourable position. A one-on-one war with Russia. It's possible Germany does not even accept their surrender. If they don't Russia probably gets tons of territory annexed, and other parts divided up into roughly client nations. If Germany decides to accept their surrender and Imperial Russia survives, as I say, I think Russia will become a big threat in the future. Big enough to potentially form an Anglo-German alliance.
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Post by acesand8s »

Lord Woodlouse wrote:I'm fairly certain the UK in the Great War was a net financier to other nations.
I believe that's true as well but without American money coming in, there less money in Britain to then be loaned out.
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Post by Sidewinder »

Adrian Laguna wrote:I think it's possible the Canadians would go "fuck you guys" to the Brits if there was a chance of military involvement against the US. It is suicide for Canada to go to war against the United States, so they'll probably try to avoid it at all costs.
So Canada would either declare independence from the UK and become the mirror image of the US-- isolationist and paranoid of non-Canadian influences-- or become a US protectorate?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Lord Woodlouse »

Sidewinder wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:I think it's possible the Canadians would go "fuck you guys" to the Brits if there was a chance of military involvement against the US. It is suicide for Canada to go to war against the United States, so they'll probably try to avoid it at all costs.
So Canada would either declare independence from the UK and become the mirror image of the US-- isolationist and paranoid of non-Canadian influences-- or become a US protectorate?
They're pretty much independant at the time, anyway. We did not command them to join us.
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Post by Sidewinder »

Lord Woodlouse wrote:I might be wrong in my last post, though. Since this basically leaves Germany in it's most favourable position. A one-on-one war with Russia. It's possible Germany does not even accept their surrender. If they don't Russia probably gets tons of territory annexed, and other parts divided up into roughly client nations. If Germany decides to accept their surrender and Imperial Russia survives, as I say, I think Russia will become a big threat in the future. Big enough to potentially form an Anglo-German alliance.
I believe John Keeganwrote that Kaiser Wilhelm II wanted to avoid a two-front war-- he wanted to send the entire army against France, and tried to convince Csar Nicholas NOT to mobilize the Russian Army in support of his French allies. Unfortunately, the German Army Chief of Staff was an idiot who told the Kaiser this was logistically impossible.
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I agree that Russia WILL become a major threat to the western nations, regardless of whether it has an imperial or communist government. Whether or not the US will ally with Germany to counter this threat depends on the competency of the then President, who might be successor to Theodore Roosevelt-- who, according to a historian who contributed to What if...? 2, was likely to get the US involved earlier in WWI, ending the war earlier as well-- instead of Woodrow Wilson.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Lord Woodlouse »

Well the whole German war plan they'd had set in stone was designed to pull a knock-out punch on France so they could quickly shift eastward and face Russia with their full might before they mobilised.

The plan was not really to conquer them, just subdue them. Britain was not even really factored into the plan (probably expecting the whole thing to be over so quickly that the British would still be scratching their arses by the time they think to join the fray).

Of course the Kaiser might well have changed the priorities of the whole operation. All the same I don't think Germany fighting Russia was incidental. The war started because of Russian mobilisation against Austria-Hungary, afterall. Russia was quite happy for Germany to back off, but they refused to halt their own mobilisation against A-H.
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Post by Sidewinder »

Lord Woodlouse wrote:All the same I don't think Germany fighting Russia was incidental. The war started because of Russian mobilisation against Austria-Hungary, afterall. Russia was quite happy for Germany to back off, but they refused to halt their own mobilisation against A-H.
Jesus, I knew the Russian Army was badly led, but I didn't know it was THAT badly led. Seriously, whoever suggested, "Let's attack the Austro-Hungarian Empire to liberate our Serbian brothers! Don't worry about the Germans coming to the aid of their allies, Germans are pansies who'll be crushed under the boots of our invincible Russian Army!" should've been impaled for this.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Lord Woodlouse »

Sidewinder wrote:
Lord Woodlouse wrote:All the same I don't think Germany fighting Russia was incidental. The war started because of Russian mobilisation against Austria-Hungary, afterall. Russia was quite happy for Germany to back off, but they refused to halt their own mobilisation against A-H.
Jesus, I knew the Russian Army was badly led, but I didn't know it was THAT badly led. Seriously, whoever suggested, "Let's attack the Austro-Hungarian Empire to liberate our Serbian brothers! Don't worry about the Germans coming to the aid of their allies, Germans are pansies who'll be crushed under the boots of our invincible Russian Army!" should've been impaled for this.
Germany made a similar mistake with Belgium, though. Everyone was working toward clockwork mobilisation timetables. The German warplan needed to go through Belgium.

Had it not they could probably have avoided, or put off, British intervention.
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