Texas School District Bans Cleavage

[Uraniun235]

My problem with uniforms is they impose conformity. I despise conformity.

Hope you enjoy life after school where you'll likely have to wear a shirt, tie, and maybe even suit like everyone else at the office. Of course there's always the choice of working at McDonald's where you get to wear a McUniform like every other McWorker.

Dress code is not synonymous with uniform, and I daresay that not even all jobs have strict dress codes or uniforms. The IT department I work at, for example, is pretty lax about dress code; t-shirts and shorts are entirely acceptable, and one of the women has gone about in a tank top on more than one occasion. I have never seen even my boss wearing a tie on the job.

Although it's important to realize and accept that one's job may severely limit one's fashion choices (or even abolish them completely with a single uniform, although most such jobs are pretty crappy) it's not at all accurate to say that all jobs, even all decent jobs, are strict with regard to acceptable attire.

That said, I'm sure if Debbie came into the office showing massive amounts of cleavage, she'd be asked to wear something a bit less provocative. (I know I'd be distracted!)

One might argue that school attendance is compulsory, whereas one could simply choose not to work at a job which did not suit their fashion needs... but honestly the little shits should feel grateful they don't live in a country which practices universal conscription.

And honestly anyone nerdy enough to argue about school uniforms on an internet forum will probably see an improvement in their appearance given the proper uniform. I know I could have used a snappy uniform in my high school days.

[Darth Wong]

Although it's important to realize and accept that one's job may severely limit one's fashion choices (or even abolish them completely with a single uniform, although most such jobs are pretty crappy) it's not at all accurate to say that all jobs, even all decent jobs, are strict with regard to acceptable attire.

You're missing the point, which is that this decision is up to your employer, not you. That is what these uppity students need to get through their heads. If your employer says it's OK to wear sandals and shorts to work, fine. But if he says you'd better come in wearing a dress shirt and a tie, then you'd better come into work wearing a dress shirt and a tie.

You see, the real problem here is students thinking that they're in charge, and that the school (and to a larger extent, the whole world) owes them something. It doesn't. They've been coddled for so long that they honestly go into shock when someone tells them they can go fuck themselves if they don't like the rules.

[Wicked Pilot]

The way some people scream and holler you'd think wearing a unifrom would be the end of the world. Some of us go months on end wearing nothing but a uniform unless we're in the shower, and yet somehow we survive to tell about it.

[Surlethe]

It's amazing how quickly my opinion on this issue changed once I was no longer going to be affected by any implementation of a dress code. A few years back, our high school proposed a simple dress code, and the student body started murmuring against it, but now that I look back, I see startling similarities between the arguments we put forth against the dress code and religious arguments: namely, when subjected to questioning, we shuffled our feet and mumbled.

[Darth Yoshi]

When I was in high school, there was some talk about uniforms being implemented at school. My complaint was that I'd actually have to go out and buy uniforms, but that was only because I had a fairly limited wardrobe and rarely bought new clothes. Considering most teens spend money on clothing on a regular basis anyway, it wouldn't be a problem.

[Beowulf]

The way some people scream and holler you'd think wearing a unifrom would be the end of the world. Some of us go months on end wearing nothing but a uniform unless we're in the shower, and yet somehow we survive to tell about it.

Hey, you can wear a PT unif... oh wait.

[Dominus Atheos]

To be honest, I don't know why this is news. My school district has had this sort of rule for years, albiet it isn't strictly enforced.

My school had it too, and it was enforced.

[Molyneux]

Although it's important to realize and accept that one's job may severely limit one's fashion choices (or even abolish them completely with a single uniform, although most such jobs are pretty crappy) it's not at all accurate to say that all jobs, even all decent jobs, are strict with regard to acceptable attire.

You're missing the point, which is that this decision is up to your employer, not you. That is what these uppity students need to get through their heads. If your employer says it's OK to wear sandals and shorts to work, fine. But if he says you'd better come in wearing a dress shirt and a tie, then you'd better come into work wearing a dress shirt and a tie.

You see, the real problem here is students thinking that they're in charge, and that the school (and to a larger extent, the whole world) owes them something. It doesn't. They've been coddled for so long that they honestly go into shock when someone tells them they can go fuck themselves if they don't like the rules.

...and this is a great example of something a good union can help with.

If the students don't like the no-cleavage rule, or if any students at a school anywhere don't like the institution of a dress code (I'm speaking more here of high school and college students, though I don't know of any non-private collegs with uniforms), then the only viable option is to take a stand - organize, tell their parents exactly how determined they are to get the rule changed and make sure that the student body can act together.

Any students who can organize to that extent would definitely possess a degree of resolve, planning and intelligence generally rare in that age group, and I would cheer on any attempts of theirs to force the school to change its policy.

If the students bend over and take it, then fuck 'em. Their failure to do anything does nothing more than prove that they lack the gumption to self-determination.


As to whether a no-cleavage rule is actually a good idea or not - I'd say it's a bad idea in a high school, but obviously not a bad one in earlier grades.

[Braedley]

I honestly don't see why everyone is up in arms about this. It's as simple as "You don't show your tits in class, and we won't expel you from school." It's a very reasonable arrangement. Okay, so maybe an expulsion wouldn't be in order, but you catch my drift.

And bullshit to anyone who says that there aren't enough clothes out there for girls to wear that still fit the requirement set out in the dress code. And I'm not just talking about t-shirts this time. I've seen many a girl look mighty fine in clothing that would satisfy the rules as I understand them who simply wouldn't look as good in some of their other clothing that would violate the rules. It isn't hard to dress sexy and still have cleavage and belly buttons covered up. And I might add, it would probably be just as easy to violate the rules in a uniform.

[Darth Wong]

...and this is a great example of something a good union can help with.

Oh yes, because the brutal working conditions of the early industrial era are comparable to the horrors of a dress code

You do realize that most of the real unions work in environments where uniforms are required, and they don't bat an eyelash at it, right?

[Molyneux]

...and this is a great example of something a good union can help with.

Oh yes, because the brutal working conditions of the early industrial era are comparable to the horrors of a dress code

You do realize that most of the real unions work in environments where uniforms are required, and they don't bat an eyelash at it, right?

Oh, for the love of...

I rewrote that sentence three times over because I didn't want it to sound like I was claiming that the labor unions were founded over dress codes. Apparently I failed.

The question of the environments in which unions exist is moot - I stated that any students that unionise deserve our approbation for having the gumption and discipline to do so - and that any that do not (or that gripe and moan about the rules without actually doing anything) deserve nothing but scorn.

[Solauren]

Molyneux, a word to the wise

Unions care jack shit about dresscodes unless dressing is becoming a work safety issue (i.e unsafe uniforms).

They mention them, but only as a bargaining chip.

[Surlethe]

Any students who can organize to that extent would definitely possess a degree of resolve, planning and intelligence generally rare in that age group, and I would cheer on any attempts of theirs to force the school to change its policy.

Would you cheer the attempts of any group which possessed resolve, planning, and intelligence which is apparently rare, regardless of what they're attempting? Perhaps you'd cheer the attempts of Vladimir Putin to turn Russia into a fascist country, or the attempts of religious conservatives to turn America into a theocracy? What about the attempts of al-Qaida to force the United States to change its foreign policy?

[Molyneux]

Molyneux, a word to the wise

Unions care jack shit about dresscodes unless dressing is becoming a work safety issue (i.e unsafe uniforms).

They mention them, but only as a bargaining chip.

For Pete's sake...

Enough with the freakin' labor unions! I don't give a crap what actual workers' unions do with regard to dresscodes. I said that any students with the maturity to organize in protest of a rule they didn't like - such as the no-cleavage rule - are worth supporting, as they've shown their independence by virtue of actually organising any kind of protest.

As Wong and others have referred to the immaturity of students ("uppity" has also been used), and I was noting that if students are mature enough to organise and use what power they have to protest uniforms, then the fact of that organisation is itself an argument against their immaturity.

[Molyneux]

Any students who can organize to that extent would definitely possess a degree of resolve, planning and intelligence generally rare in that age group, and I would cheer on any attempts of theirs to force the school to change its policy.

Would you cheer the attempts of any group which possessed resolve, planning, and intelligence which is apparently rare, regardless of what they're attempting? Perhaps you'd cheer the attempts of Vladimir Putin to turn Russia into a fascist country, or the attempts of religious conservatives to turn America into a theocracy? What about the attempts of al-Qaida to force the United States to change its foreign policy?

...you actually have the gall to compare students protesting mandatory uniforms to al-Qaeda's terrorist activities? Your statement has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand, jackass.

[Darth Wong]

Oh, for the love of...

I rewrote that sentence three times over because I didn't want it to sound like I was claiming that the labor unions were founded over dress codes. Apparently I failed.

No, your whole idea was nothing more than the idiotic ravings of an emotionally arrested moron. Let me make this perfectly clear to you, dipshit: any student who would actually put his education in jeopardy for the sake of his fashion sense deserves to live in a slum for the rest of his life, and I would personally take great pleasure in making sure he goes there, by expelling the little shit.

The question of the environments in which unions exist is moot - I stated that any students that unionise deserve our approbation for having the gumption and discipline to do so - and that any that do not (or that gripe and moan about the rules without actually doing anything) deserve nothing but scorn.

Any student who attempted to form a union in order to undermine the school administration over his personal fashion sense should be expelled immediately. He deserves the utmost contempt and disgust, for being such an incredible jackass that he would actually jeopardize his education for the sake of his fashion. And I would happily expel a hundred students at a time in order to crush such an uprising. It would leave more teaching resources available for the others.

[Surlethe]

...you actually have the gall to compare students protesting mandatory uniforms to al-Qaeda's terrorist activities? Your statement has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand, jackass.

... hey, genius, why don't you answer my questions? Your entire reply utterly fails to address the point I raised (if you didn't understand the point, just go back and re-read my previous post. It should be clear, even for those mentally impaired like you).

[Chris OFarrell]

Oh, for the love of...

I rewrote that sentence three times over because I didn't want it to sound like I was claiming that the labor unions were founded over dress codes. Apparently I failed.

No, your whole idea was nothing more than the idiotic ravings of an emotionally arrested moron. Let me make this perfectly clear to you, dipshit: any student who would actually put his education in jeopardy for the sake of his fashion sense deserves to live in a slum for the rest of his life, and I would personally take great pleasure in making sure he goes there, by expelling the little shit.

Damnit Mike, you should have taken an education degree.

Hell I'd pay for webstream to see the white faced parents on parent-teacher nights after you layeth the smackdown on their protests "But he's such a GOOD boy!" BS.

[RedImperator]

You're missing the point, which is that this decision is up to your employer, not you. That is what these uppity students need to get through their heads. If your employer says it's OK to wear sandals and shorts to work, fine. But if he says you'd better come in wearing a dress shirt and a tie, then you'd better come into work wearing a dress shirt and a tie.

You see, the real problem here is students thinking that they're in charge, and that the school (and to a larger extent, the whole world) owes them something. It doesn't. They've been coddled for so long that they honestly go into shock when someone tells them they can go fuck themselves if they don't like the rules.

...and this is a great example of something a good union can help with.

If the students don't like the no-cleavage rule, or if any students at a school anywhere don't like the institution of a dress code (I'm speaking more here of high school and college students, though I don't know of any non-private collegs with uniforms), then the only viable option is to take a stand - organize, tell their parents exactly how determined they are to get the rule changed and make sure that the student body can act together.

They tried that when we started cracking down and strictly enforcing our uniform policy.

We crushed them.

If the school district here was putting in some dickhead rule like a pigheaded zero tolerance policy or punishing kids for their political opinions, then there would be a situation worth collective action. That's not what's happening here. This is a dress code, and unless I miss my guess, even with the "no clevage" rule, it's less restrictive than the ones these girls are going to have to deal with in even a casual office.

Any students who can organize to that extent would definitely possess a degree of resolve, planning and intelligence generally rare in that age group, and I would cheer on any attempts of theirs to force the school to change its policy.

Actually, I'd cheer on an attempt to organize, too. The most poisonous attitudes I saw among students were nihilism and apathy--nothing matters and I don't care anyway. But if they fight a rule that's designed to improve the safety and effectiveness of the learning environment, they need something better than "Fuck you, we can wear whatever we want", or they'll lose. Every single time.

If the students bend over and take it, then fuck 'em. Their failure to do anything does nothing more than prove that they lack the gumption to self-determination.

Or...they don't like it, but don't feel it's worth the fight. The way most people deal with things they don't like, but aren't outrageous enough to warrant the investment of time and resources to fight it.

As to whether a no-cleavage rule is actually a good idea or not - I'd say it's a bad idea in a high school, but obviously not a bad one in earlier grades.

Why? Why is it unreasonable to ask teenage girls to not show off their cleavage in school? They're free to change clothes after school and wear whatever they want on weekends. They're getting an education, not putting on a fashion show.

[Molyneux]

No, your whole idea was nothing more than the idiotic ravings of an emotionally arrested moron. Let me make this perfectly clear to you, dipshit: any student who would actually put his education in jeopardy for the sake of his fashion sense deserves to live in a slum for the rest of his life, and I would personally take great pleasure in making sure he goes there, by expelling the little shit.

Well, boo hoo. You would rather the students apathetically give in to whatever the school decrees? Unlike the actual work environment in which they will spend the rest of their lives, the school system DOES exist for the sake of the students. A high school can't get a damn thing done if it expels all of its students - and the public relations shitstorm that intelligent students could unleash ("They expelled me for exercising my constitutional rights!" - this is regardless, of course, of the actual merit of anything the students would say.) would make any school officials I've encountered think twice about such extreme action.


Look at it this way - a company exists for the sake of its bottom line. It couldn't care less about its workers, except in that it requires labor in order to maintain its cashflow. However, said workers can force the company to change its policies by unionising.

A school exists FOR the students; they are its reason for existence. What prevents them from exerting that much more influence over its policies?


Any student who actually gives a damn about the running of the school he's in is a better student than one who doesn't give a shit, I'd say.

They tried that when we started cracking down and strictly enforcing our uniform policy.

We crushed them.

If the school district here was putting in some dickhead rule like a pigheaded zero tolerance policy or punishing kids for their political opinions, then there would be a situation worth collective action. That's not what's happening here. This is a dress code, and unless I miss my guess, even with the "no cleavage" rule, it's less restrictive than the ones these girls are going to have to deal with in even a casual office.

The difference being that a school is not an office environment; it's a threeway cross between a prison, a daycare center, and an actual learning environment. It exists explicitly for the sake of the students attending, while a private company is accountable to its bottom line.

And in what way did the students resist the policy? I really don't see any way for a school to beat a determined student body dead-set against uniforms or whatnot, especially if the students had their parents' support.

What can a school district do if the students simply refuse to wear the uniforms?

Any students who can organize to that extent would definitely possess a degree of resolve, planning and intelligence generally rare in that age group, and I would cheer on any attempts of theirs to force the school to change its policy.

Actually, I'd cheer on an attempt to organize, too. The most poisonous attitudes I saw among students were nihilism and apathy--nothing matters and I don't care anyway. But if they fight a rule that's designed to improve the safety and effectiveness of the learning environment, they need something better than "Fuck you, we can wear whatever we want", or they'll lose. Every single time.

...how the hell does a no-cleavage rule improve the safety of the learning environment? I could see it helping in a shop or chem class where there could be flying bad things, but other than that...?

If the students bend over and take it, then fuck 'em. Their failure to do anything does nothing more than prove that they lack the gumption to self-determination.

Or...they don't like it, but don't feel it's worth the fight. The way most people deal with things they don't like, but aren't outrageous enough to warrant the investment of time and resources to fight it.

In which case the students in question lack the requisite maturity and determination to organise, and thereby fit the 'immature students' label nicely.

As to whether a no-cleavage rule is actually a good idea or not - I'd say it's a bad idea in a high school, but obviously not a bad one in earlier grades.

Why? Why is it unreasonable to ask teenage girls to not show off their cleavage in school? They're free to change clothes after school and wear whatever they want on weekends. They're getting an education, not putting on a fashion show.

Because, frankly, I don't see any rationale for the school having a say over what the students wear, as long as safety and legality are maintained. The cleavage rule is not an issue of respect, like wearing hats in class; it appears to be based solely on prurience.

Damnit Mike, you should have taken an education degree.

Hell I'd pay for webstream to see the white faced parents on parent-teacher nights after you layeth the smackdown on their protests "But he's such a GOOD boy!" BS.

Oh, yes. And then the school's budgets are voted down until it lets the students back or the fucktard responsible for expelling a good fraction of its populace is fired. At least where I live, the public schools are dependent on a public vote in order to use any money at all; that gives the parents in question a rather firm grip on the school's 'affairs'.

... hey, genius, why don't you answer my questions? Your entire reply utterly fails to address the point I raised (if you didn't understand the point, just go back and re-read my previous post. It should be clear, even for those mentally impaired like you).

Oh, I'm sorry, I overlooked your 'questions' as irrelevant to the topic at hand. I thought that we were talking about students - a group which is often bemoaned as being far too apathetic and uncaring of the workings of the world around them - and not terrorists and dictators.

The closest you seem to be able to get to a coherent argument is a modernized version of Godwin-baiting.

[Surlethe]

Oh, I'm sorry, I overlooked your 'questions' as irrelevant to the topic at hand. I thought that we were talking about students - a group which is often bemoaned as being far too apathetic and uncaring of the workings of the world around them - and not terrorists and dictators.

If you're too goddamned stupid to understand an application of your argument to an inherently similar situation, it's not my fault you fucking can't realize the relevance to the topic at hand. In fact, I'm willing to bet you couldn't even tell me the point I was making in my response to you.

Moron.

The closest you seem to be able to get to a coherent argument is a modernized version of Godwin-baiting.

As I suspected, your reading comprehension is subreptilian, you prepubescent troglodyte.

[Lonestar]

My problem with uniforms is they impose conformity. .

You can have visual conformity while having a widespread of viewpoints and intellects. Look at any Armed Service.

[Edi]

Molyneux, demonstrating again that he has not read ANY of the previous education threads and that his head is still firmly lodged up his arse.

You're full of shit, as has been pointed out many times in this thread, and bleating buzzwords and slogans like "constitutional rights" isn't going to magically win the argument for you. When this thread gets HoSed, I'll be waiting. You're still being a spastic, emoing little shit with delusions of adequacy and a good Horsemanizing could only improve your posts in this thread.

Edi

[StarshipTitanic]

snip snip

So basically a school should bend over backwards to accomodate students and their clothing or they might scare the poor children away with rules?

How old are you, and can I join you in your wonderful world of rulelessness? I could use some time against the arbitrary nature of the real world.

As I suspected, your reading comprehension is subreptilian

That just tickles me in a good way. I'm stealing it for my own purposes.

[Darth Wong]

Well, boo hoo. You would rather the students apathetically give in to whatever the school decrees?

Yes, because fashion sense is not as important as education. Any student who demonstrates that he doesn't have his priorities straight deserves whatever fate he gets.

Unlike the actual work environment in which they will spend the rest of their lives, the school system DOES exist for the sake of the students.

It exists for the sake of their education, you idiot. Not their fashion sense.

A high school can't get a damn thing done if it expels all of its students - and the public relations shitstorm that intelligent students could unleash ("They expelled me for exercising my constitutional rights!" - this is regardless, of course, of the actual merit of anything the students would say.) would make any school officials I've encountered think twice about such extreme action.

The day that all of the parents would allow their kids to put their education at risk over clothing styles is the day that the inmates run the asylum, fool. Or did you forget the fucking parents? You know, those people who pay all the goddamned taxes, expect their children to get an education in something other than Slutty Clothing 101, and whose majority would be enraged at their children if they tried to go to war over clothes?

Look at it this way - a company exists for the sake of its bottom line. It couldn't care less about its workers, except in that it requires labor in order to maintain its cashflow. However, said workers can force the company to change its policies by unionising.

A school exists FOR the students; they are its reason for existence. What prevents them from exerting that much more influence over its policies?

Their EDUCATION is the reason for its existence, you moron. The real clients are the parents of the students, the future employers of the students, and society at large. Otherwise, schools would give the idiot students whatever they wanted, by offering courses designed for entertainment value rather than educational value. Holy Christ, are you ever fucking stupid. Do you really think the school exists to cater to the students' whims?

The closest you seem to be able to get to a coherent argument is a modernized version of Godwin-baiting.

This repeated, unrepentant strawman distortion of Surlethe's argument is going to have you walking on very thin ice, very soon.