Noise on starships

[StarshipTitanic]

I don't have a problem with the background noise.

I actually do. Today, we have noise-cancelling technology (in fact, I think it has been on the market since 1997 or so), yet in the 24th century, apparently they've lost that capability. Not using noise-cancelling technology in areas where you might actually benefit from hearing irregularities (such as engineering) might make sense, but having the dull roar of the main reactor audible in areas such as crew quarters and Sickbay is absolutely retarded. It's a fairly constant sound, so even using the most primitive noise-cancelling technology availible, it should be feasible to eliminate it.

That said, this could also be the answer as to why the sound doesn't vary depending on your proximity to the reactor: perhaps Engineering uses some form of partial noise-cancellation/deadening technology, so that personell can still hear what is going on, albeit without being defeaned.

Their crew quarters are already luxury hotel rooms, they need a little engine rumble to keep them sharp.

I think it's possible for a person to get noise-cancelling technology installed in their quarters if it really bugs them. For instance in one DS9 episode when Odo was tearing up his quarters over the thought of losing Kira, Quarks quarters were right below his. I can't immediately recall which episode, but IIRC Quark even noted that he could always hear Odo morphing about his quarters. Later on after Quark helps him out a bit, Odo states that he's having soundproofing installed in his quarters.

Christ, why wasn't Quark bugging the shit out of Odo's quarters?!

[vivftp]

Their crew quarters are already luxury hotel rooms, they need a little engine rumble to keep them sharp.

Actually hasn't it been stated by some people that they find the rumbling of the ship to be comforting?

Christ, why wasn't Quark bugging the shit out of Odo's quarters?!

Heh, actually Odo strongly implied to Kira that the location of Quarks quarters directly below his wasn't just random luck. The better question to probably ask is how much was Odo spying on Quark?


And after some searching, I found the episode - Crossfire. The account I gave above was more or less accurate, at least as far as the relevant facts go.[/quote]

[Uraniun235]

Actually hasn't it been stated by some people that they find the rumbling of the ship to be comforting?

Wouldn't surprise me. I like to sleep with a fan on in my room.

[vivftp]

Wouldn't surprise me. I like to sleep with a fan on in my room.

Hell, since I was probably around 9 or so, I've preferred having something to listen to while I'm going to sleep. I used to just have the radio playing, now since I have my computer in my room I usually have random episodes of some TV show just playing while I sleep (heh, it's hilarious how hearing these things can affect my dreams. For example recently I've had Married With Children playing in the background, and my dreams usually match the episodes quite nicely, but usually have twists and turns from my life thrown in). Not to mention I have a fan in the background as well.

Whenever I try to fall asleep with no ambient noises, it just feels strange.

[Gil Hamilton]

Actually hasn't it been stated by some people that they find the rumbling of the ship to be comforting?

I know I would. I've lived in a city all my life. True quiet seems alot "noiser" than the low hum and rumble of my neighbor that always exists. Even late at night, I need to put on a CD in order to go to sleep, just to provide white noise.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Actually hasn't it been stated by some people that they find the rumbling of the ship to be comforting?

Wouldn't surprise me. I like to sleep with a fan on in my room.

Seconded. Absolute silence is fucking LOUD.

my vision of a starship engine room

KICKS MAJOR ASS. You, sir, have a talent I can only deam of having. Any idea when RoT gets another chapter?

[Superman]

Maybe it's the dolphins that swim around in ship tanks...

Dolphins... One of Trek's stupider ideas...

[Cao Cao]

Perhaps the sound is from the warp coils in the nacelles themselves rather than the warp cores, which always make gentle humming sounds despite the raw power within.

Though this still makes no sense since there's an episode where Troi is inside one of the nacelles and the sound is more or less the same. The sound should've been deafening.

[Bounty]

Since the sound is uniformly spread, it's probably coming from either life support or the EPS grid.

Actually, as far as I can remember the NX-01 didn't have the rumble, but the NX-02 with the redesigned poser system did - although the chances of that being intentional are pretty much zero.

[Darth Wong]

Since the sound is uniformly spread, it's probably coming from either life support or the EPS grid.

They've shut off life support before. Did the sound stop? Besides, why should such a system be so loud? As for the EPS grid, all of the pressure in the entire system is originating in one concentrated location. If it was the EPS grid, then it should still be deafeningly loud as you approach the source.

Actually, as far as I can remember the NX-01 didn't have the rumble, but the NX-02 with the redesigned poser system did - although the chances of that being intentional are pretty much zero.

It just annoys the piss out of me that they added the sound for some sort of "oooh, sounds industrial" factor but never followed the logic through to its natural conclusion. That could be said of an awful lot of Berman-era Trek.

[Cao Cao]

In DS9, the ancient Bajoran ship that Sisko pilots has no background noise. Sisko even makes a point of it, saying that there's no engine sound like on a starship.
Seeing as this ship obviously had life support and gravity generation then those can be ruled out.

[vivftp]

In DS9, the ancient Bajoran ship that Sisko pilots has no background noise. Sisko even makes a point of it, saying that there's no engine sound like on a starship.
Seeing as this ship obviously had life support and gravity generation then those can be ruled out.

Ahh, that's the episode I was thinking about!

On the topic of the EPS grid, wouldn't it only be deafeningly loud at the source if the source was the only thing distributing it throughout the rest of the ship? If they have equiptment located all throughout the ship helping to distribute it all, then wouldn't that create the even sound in the background?

I can't say how canon their reasoning behind it is, but Memory Alpha does have some data on the EPS grid:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Electro-plasma_system

They state it's magnetic conduits distributing the electro-plasma throughout the ship. Whenever we see the warp core and the reactants headed towards the reaction chamber we get a somewhat similar sound as the background noise. If that sound comes from the magnetic containment as it brings in the reactants, then it may be the EPS grids magnetic conduits are what produces that sound throughout the rest of the ship.

Like I said, I don't know how reliable their info on the matter is, but since this sound is evenly distributed throughout the ship, then it stands to reason it's not comming from a central point. The EPS grid spreads the electro-plasma to every corner of the ship and if it's doing it via these magnetic conduits and if they're producing that sound, then it would seem to be a reasonable explaination as to what the noise is.

[Darth Wong]

On the topic of the EPS grid, wouldn't it only be deafeningly loud at the source if the source was the only thing distributing it throughout the rest of the ship? If they have equiptment located all throughout the ship helping to distribute it all, then wouldn't that create the even sound in the background?

It wouldn't change the fact that the pressure must be far greater at the source.

I can't say how canon their reasoning behind it is, but Memory Alpha does have some data on the EPS grid:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Electro-plasma_system

They state it's magnetic conduits distributing the electro-plasma throughout the ship. Whenever we see the warp core and the reactants headed towards the reaction chamber we get a somewhat similar sound as the background noise. If that sound comes from the magnetic containment as it brings in the reactants, then it may be the EPS grids magnetic conduits are what produces that sound throughout the rest of the ship.

And yet, at the source, the volume and pressure of the plasma must be vastly greater than it is anywhere else in the ship, hence those conduits must be subjected to far more load, hence they should make more noise.

Like I said, I don't know how reliable their info on the matter is, but since this sound is evenly distributed throughout the ship, then it stands to reason it's not comming from a central point.

You can't critique an argument about sloppy writing by suspending disbelief (an act which inherently forgives sloppy writing). There should be much louder noise at the source, particularly since we know from Picard himself that the vibrations in the deck come straight from the engines.

The EPS grid spreads the electro-plasma to every corner of the ship and if it's doing it via these magnetic conduits and if they're producing that sound, then it would seem to be a reasonable explaination as to what the noise is.

No, it's not reasonable at all. If you understood the point being made, you would understand that as well. This is why I find your attempts to participate in even the most vaguely tech-related discussion to be annoying; you operate on such a low level that it's like having a 5 year old trying to participate in a discussion of politics.

[vivftp]

Darth Wong

It wouldn't change the fact that the pressure must be far greater at the source.

And yet, at the source, the volume and pressure of the plasma must be vastly greater than it is anywhere else in the ship, hence those conduits must be subjected to far more load, hence they should make more noise.

Yes, but if it's simply magnetic conduits doing their business, directing the electro-plasma along whatever route, would that really mean it must be louder?

Wouldn't the question be, would a larger version of the magnetic conduits running throughout the rest of the ship make more noise when operating?

You can't critique an argument about sloppy writing by suspending disbelief (an act which inherently forgives sloppy writing). There should be much louder noise at the source, particularly since we know from Picard himself that the vibrations in the deck come straight from the engines.

BTW, which episode was that where Picard made the statement? I'm thinking it was one of the movies, but I'm not 100% sure.

No, it's not reasonable at all. If you understood the point being made, you would understand that as well. This is why I find your attempts to participate in even the most vaguely tech-related discussion to be annoying; you operate on such a low level that it's like having a 5 year old trying to participate in a discussion of politics.

Oh no, I've upset the mighty, unfallable Mike Wong. Oh forgive me Mr. Wong for thinking this small, insignificant one could dare to try and contribute to this discussion.

[Bounty]

BTW, which episode was that where Picard made the statement? I'm thinking it was one of the movies, but I'm not 100% sure.

INS. He says the torque sensors are off, the Trill checks and sees he's right, he starts bragging about how he could hear if the Stargazer's sensors were even a few microns off.

[vivftp]

INS. He says the torque sensors are off, the Trill checks and sees he's right, he starts bragging about how he could hear if the Stargazer's sensors were even a few microns off.

Ahh, figures, I don't have the movie on hand.

Anyways, sensors? Didn't Darth Wong claim it was the engines Picard was referring to?

BTW, in addition to my above post, even if the EPS grid was supposed to be louder at the source, that still doesn't preclude the possibility of them using soundproofing to dampen the noise. I've alredy provided evidence that the concept of soundproofing isn't lost in the 24th century in this thread, and it makes sense if you have a ton of excess noise in your Engineering section which is going to be a major distraction to the crew there, why wouldn't you add on some soundproofing to the source of that noise?

So if that is the case, is there any other reason we can't assume it's the EPS grid making that low-level noise on the ship? For the moment I'm skipping the whole bit about Picard in Insurrection since there seems to be a bit of a discrepency going on there.

[Darth Wong]

BTW, which episode was that where Picard made the statement? I'm thinking it was one of the movies, but I'm not 100% sure.

INS. He says the torque sensors are off, the Trill checks and sees he's right, he starts bragging about how he could hear if the Stargazer's sensors were even a few microns off.

Wait, torque sensors make the ship vibrate? That's even worse. That may be the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. Did the writers really put that into the script?

Yes, but if it's simply magnetic conduits doing their business, directing the electro-plasma along whatever route, would that really mean it must be louder?

Wouldn't the question be, would a larger version of the magnetic conduits running throughout the rest of the ship make more noise when operating?

Yes, you fucking idiot. If the system is designed to contain and direct plasma, and it is suddenly asked to contain and direct vastly more plasma at vastly greater pressure, then it will be under much greater strain and if its operating mechanism makes noise, it should make much more noise. Only a true idiot such as yourself would actually need someone to explain why a piping system which makes noise at X pressure should make more noise at 1000X pressure.

Oh no, I've upset the mighty, unfallable Mike Wong. Oh forgive me Mr. Wong for thinking this small, insignificant one could dare to try and contribute to this discussion.

Correct. Compared to me or any other person with an actual tech background, you are utterly insignificant and should not be permitted to participate in tech discussions because you are clearly too fucking stupid. You say it with sarcasm as if you think it's absurd, but it's quite clearly true. Your incredible stupidity about the pressure issue is a fine example of that ignorance. You have absolutely nothing whatsoever to contribute to any tech discussion: no particular background, no particular knowledge, no insight, not even the pitifully overvalued concept known as common sense. You consistently say things so fucking stupid that they make me wonder if you must be trolling, because I have trouble believing that anyone who can locate keys on a keyboard could possibly spout such idiocy with sincerity.

BTW, in addition to my above post, even if the EPS grid was supposed to be louder at the source, that still doesn't preclude the possibility of them using soundproofing to dampen the noise. I've alredy provided evidence that the concept of soundproofing isn't lost in the 24th century in this thread, and it makes sense if you have a ton of excess noise in your Engineering section which is going to be a major distraction to the crew there, why wouldn't you add on some soundproofing to the source of that noise?

The idea that residential soundproofing has even the most vague relevance to the kind of SPLs we'd be talking about here is yet another example of your outstanding stupidity.

[vivftp]

Darth Wong:

Yes, you fucking idiot. If the system is designed to contain and direct plasma, and it is suddenly asked to contain and direct vastly more plasma at vastly greater pressure, then it will be under much greater strain and if its operating mechanism makes noise, it should make much more noise. Only a true idiot such as yourself would actually need someone to explain why a piping system which makes noise at X pressure should make more noise at 1000X pressure.

Interesting, and your evidence seems to be based on the sound being the contents in the magnetic conduits under pressure, straining the operating mechanism and producing the noise. Now why exactly can't it be that's the noise normally produced by the machinery, rather than noise from it being strained?

Considering it's an ever present, constant noise in the background, you'd expect it to change whenever there was a problem with the EPS grid, no? I mean, if the noise is being produced by the machinery being strained while doing its job, then fluctuations in the EPS grid naturally would affect the sound and we'd hear it differ. To my knowledge that's never occured - so the theory that the sound is a natrual byproduct of the machinery operating seems more logical.

The fact that the source in Engineering maintains the same sound level could easily be explained by it being the normal sound produced by that machinery rather than it being strained depending on how much electro-plasma was running through it.

Correct. Compared to me or any other person with an actual tech background, you are utterly insignificant and should not be permitted to participate in tech discussions because you are clearly too fucking stupid. You say it with sarcasm as if you think it's absurd, but it's quite clearly true. Your incredible stupidity about the pressure issue is a fine example of that ignorance. You have absolutely nothing whatsoever to contribute to any tech discussion: no particular background, no particular knowledge, no insight, not even the pitifully overvalued concept known as common sense. You consistently say things so fucking stupid that they make me wonder if you must be trolling, because I have trouble believing that anyone who can locate keys on a keyboard could possibly spout such idiocy with sincerity.

I've never pretended I was any sort of authority in this sort of mannars, I'm an average joe trying to add something to the discussion. If it offends you that someone wants to try and add something to the discussion, I don't really care.

I'll be interested to read your reply to my above response.

[Darth Wong]

Interesting, and your evidence seems to be based on the sound being the contents in the magnetic conduits under pressure, straining the operating mechanism and producing the noise. Now why exactly can't it be that's the noise normally produced by the machinery, rather than noise from it being strained?

Because that would imply that the machinery itself creates much more heat and vibration than the contents, which in turn would be stupid because the contents are supposed to be powering everything. By the time you're done rationalizing your idiotic bullshit, the plasma in the EPS is but an afterthought to its operation.

Considering it's an ever present, constant noise in the background, you'd expect it to change whenever there was a problem with the EPS grid, no? I mean, if the noise is being produced by the machinery being strained while doing its job, then fluctuations in the EPS grid naturally would affect the sound and we'd hear it differ. To my knowledge that's never occured - so the theory that the sound is a natrual byproduct of the machinery operating seems more logical.

Of course, because explosions in the EPS conduits are not noise.

The fact that the source in Engineering maintains the same sound level could easily be explained by it being the normal sound produced by that machinery rather than it being strained depending on how much electro-plasma was running through it.

Which once again implies that the actual stuff powering all of this is basically silent, but a support system makes noise that they can't prevent. Yet again you demonstrate your bullshit; the idea of elevating the power and vibration levels of the conduit system itself so that they dwarf the effects of the contents within is a new level of stupidity even for you.

I've never pretended I was any sort of authority in this sort of mannars, I'm an average joe trying to add something to the discussion. If it offends you that someone wants to try and add something to the discussion, I don't really care.

It offends me when stupid ignorant people try to add something to a discussion that's beyond them, and get argumentative about things they don't understand.

[Bounty]

Wait, torque sensors make the ship vibrate? That's even worse. That may be the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. Did the writers really put that into the script?

Here's the exact quote, assuming the script is correct (there were small differences with the shooting script, but from what I remember from the movie it's accurate) :

A beat as Picard listens to the sound of his ship, raises
an eyebrow... we hear nothing... he moves forward to
La Forge and Perim...

PICARD
When was the last time we aligned
our torque sensors...

PERIM
Two months ago, sir...

PICARD
They don't sound right.

La Forge and Perim react, work the controls, exchange a
look at the results...

LA FORGE
The torque sensors are out of
alignment... by twelve microns...
you could hear that?

PICARD
(pleased with himself)
When I was an ensign, I could
detect a three-micron mis-
alignment...

The idea was probably that the sensors weren't properly calibrated leading to vibrations, but the quote makes it sound like it's the sensors themselves. I always thought it was the former, though.

[Aaron]

We all know that there's some kind of reactor or engine in the ship that makes this low-level rumbling sound throughout the ship. But doesn't it stand to reason that this noise should be louder as you approach the source? Shouldn't people be wearing ear protection in the engineering section? I've spent enough years in factories and power plants to know that when you get close to the business end of the plant, it's fucking loud. And if it wasn't, then why the hell would the noise be audible throughout the entire ship?

In NeoBSG the Pegasus engine room crew wear ear protectors and when the Commander goes back to help clear a problem he has to shout to be heard over all the noise. I thought that was a nice touch and what we saw of the engine room was similar to a real-life warship engine room. Although you can't hear the ships engines throughout the rest of the Battlestar, but the engines are isolated in the aft section and most of the action takes place in the middle of the fore section and the flight pods.

Also, pursuant to the previous point, shouldn't the engineering crew wear different uniforms than the officers? And I'm not just talking about different colours; I'm talking about entirely different uniforms, including things like radiation protection, safety boots, etc. We actually saw this in ST2 (bless Nicholas Meyer for being the only person who could see the Enterprise as an actual navy vessel), but in TNG, it was gold pajamas versus red ones. Whoopie shit.

Once again in NeoBSG we see flight deck and engine room personnel in coveralls and safety footwear along with bulky helmets and ear protectors. Ammo techs on Galactica also wear coveralls but were mainly civvies. And of course when the Cylon agent blows out the water tank on Galactica we see the engineer crew in pressure suits. And we've seen them in fire fighting gear in the Mini I believe.

[Darth Wong]

The idea was probably that the sensors weren't properly calibrated leading to vibrations, but the quote makes it sound like it's the sensors themselves. I always thought it was the former, though.

Well, even so, it would imply that some major system on the ship is vibrating abnormally because of bad sensor readings, and it seems rather doubtful that every single EPS conduit on the entire ship changes its operation based on "torque sensors", even if we leave aside vivftp's asinine stupidity of assuming that the plasma inside the EPS system exerts either zero reaction force on its containment system or a perfectly stable reaction force.

[vivftp]

Darth Wong:

Because that would imply that the machinery itself creates much more heat and vibration than the contents, which in turn would be stupid because the contents are supposed to be powering everything. By the time you're done rationalizing your idiotic bullshit, the plasma in the EPS is but an afterthought to its operation.

Wait, would you care to explain how if these magnetic conduits, which are spread across the ship, are producing a low rumbling sound as a side effect of their function this somehow equates to them creating much more heat and vibration than the contents? I didn't see any figures to back this up, so I'm quite curious about it.

Of course, because explosions in the EPS conduits are not noise.

A console exploding due to fluctuations in the EPS grid is a different noise, for sure. But if the EPS grid is fluctuating and the noise is caused by the plasma causing a strain on the machinery then logically you'd expect to hear the noise fluctuating as well. I've never heard that noise deviate, so how does that work out?

Which once again implies that the actual stuff powering all of this is basically silent, but a support system makes noise that they can't prevent. Yet again you demonstrate your bullshit; the idea of elevating the power and vibration levels of the conduit system itself so that they dwarf the effects of the contents within is a new level of stupidity even for you.

It would appear you think I'm talking about some central source for the noise which is being spread to the rest of the ship from the way you're talking. To be clear, I'm suggesting the magnetic conduits divert the plasma whereever they need to go out of engineering and more magnetic conduits guide them wherever they need to go on the ship. That mens all of these magnetic conduits everywhere on the ship are making this background sound.

I still can't see how a low rumble as part of a machines natural operation somehow equates to it creating more heat and vibration than the contents...

As for your theory it's some support system, well as I mentioned earlier we get a similar low rumble as the reactants of the warp core are heading into the reaction chamber. It's obviously not as constant as the shipwide rumble since there's a delay between each new set of reactants being brought in, but if this is the magnetic containment producing this noise then this adds to the theory that it's the magnetic conduits of the EPS grid producing that noise.

It offends me when stupid ignorant people try to add something to a discussion that's beyond them, and get argumentative about things they don't understand.

Well in this case I believe I do have a valid point of contention which, given the evidence we have is just as valid as what you're speculating.

[vivftp]

Well, even so, it would imply that some major system on the ship is vibrating abnormally because of bad sensor readings, and it seems rather doubtful that every single EPS conduit on the entire ship changes its operation based on "torque sensors", even if we leave aside vivftp's asinine stupidity of assuming that the plasma inside the EPS system exerts either zero reaction force on its containment system or a perfectly stable reaction force.

Ok question here, if something is being magnetically contained and shunted along, will it produce a reaction force on the system?

I mean, say you had the magnetic conduit system active at a level it would normally be set at to handle the electro-plasma, but had no plasma running through it. Wouldn't the affect on the machinery be the exact same as if the plasma were running through it? This is obviously a very different example then say, a pipe with water running through it, I'm wondering how the fact that it's magnetically contained will affect things.

[Darth Wong]

Ok question here, if something is being magnetically contained and shunted along, will it produce a reaction force on the system?

And you wonder why I think you're a moron.

That's what pisses me off about you; it's painfully obvious that you're about a hundred levels beneath the level you need to be at. Things which should be obvious must be painstakingly explained to you. Why don't you explain to me why I should bother, when you obviously haven't even bothered to learn the basics of high school science for yourself?