Were the marines in Aliens competent?

[Vendetta]

Maybe there's some other aspect of the acid resistant metal we're not aware of that means it is impractical or just rare to find armour made of it. It could be difficult to work, too heavy, or just too scarce, for ordinary hunters to have armour made of it.

[Miles Teg]

I'm not convinced that the Xenos aren't a bioweapon/terror weapon. Sure, they are gonna get slaughtered against a competent, well armed (ranged, splash damage) force. However, there are many instances where they are going to wreck havock. For instance, if they were dumped in NYC, they would be an infestation that would be nearly impossible to completely eliminate (Hell, NYC can'ts even eliminate or substantially reduce it's rat population). Think about it, NYC is a "great" environment for them to thrive:

* Plenty of homeless, etc. people for the facehuggers to impregnate (that no one would notice missing). This gives them a foothold even if the populace knew the danger of the facehuggers.

* Perfect places for the Xenos to construct multiple hives (abandonded subway tunnels, sewers, etc. Many of these places are going to be a total bitch to infultrate because the soldiers doing so are going in under the Xenos terms, not their own. The best option would be to flush them out with napalm, etc. which could possibly work. It all depends on what effect that might have on the city above ground (explosives are propobably a bad idea). But then again, how are you going to be sure you cover all the possible places? A lot of those tunnels are hundreds of years old, and don't exist on city plans anymore. At some point, a force is going to have to go down there and do a manual search and destroy.

* Ubran environment with which to use their stealth to their advantage. We all see how even trained soldiers do against humans in urban combat -- poorly. Now substitute untrained civvies and terror inducing Xenos, and it'd be a bloodbath.

* In a place like NYC, the military could not brings its full force to bear without doing as much or more damage as the Xenos (no carpet bombing, nukes, etc.) You'd have to evac the city first, and even then you are doing to do a lot of damage to valuable infrastructure if you use anything other than small arms.

Perhaps the Xenos weren't designed to inflict massive damage, but to be a diversion of sorts. In a place like NYC, they are going to take significant time and resources to get rid of, which is going to distract the local populace enough to give an invasion force a useful advantage. Now, assume the SJ's deploy this "weapon" on a planetary scale, and suddenly an entire world is devoting a significant chunk of its resources to getting rid of the Xenos.

The argument against that, of course, is the Cost/Benefit tradeoff. A couple people here have argued that the Xenos would be a stupid investment, but that argument is made without any idea what level of effort the Space Jocky's would need to create them. They could be a huge investment, or they could be a weekend project for someone's kid I would think for a race that seems to know biotech very well (based on onscreen evidence such as The Pilot), the Xenos would not be a huge investment, possibly even worth the amount of trouble they could cause.

Miles Teg

[Anguirus]

Brianeyci, consider thyself sued. Sorry for blowing up at you.

While AvP was in most respects an inconsistant mess of a movie (though really cool regardless) I think the Predators might just prefer light armor to acid-resistant metal stuff, as Vendetta pointed out.

The fact that their spears are resistant but their arm-blades aren't is sort of annoying, but maybe some jerk just sold the big Pred defective gear.

[brianeyci]

Brianeyci, consider thyself sued. Sorry for blowing up at you.

No problem.

Brian

[Elheru Aran]

Maybe there's some other aspect of the acid resistant metal we're not aware of that means it is impractical or just rare to find armour made of it. It could be difficult to work, too heavy, or just too scarce, for ordinary hunters to have armour made of it.

I believe it's stated to be expensive in some of the comics' behind-the-scenes material. They prefer to make weapons out of it, relying upon their agility to avoid acid splashes.

Though one wonders why they don't just use ceramics against xenomorphs, given that glass (IIRC) is resistant to most acids...

[Luzifer's right hand]

I believe my thoughts on the nuke deviated from my original thoughts on the "sportsmanship" subject.

While yes, the nuke isn't proof of bad sportsmanship I think the point of no acid-resistant armor to be sporting is still wrong.
While they are honorable in choosing their targets and have legitimate reasons to nuke themselves when defeated Predators have always flaunted their technology as they hunted using every sophisticated device on them to gain an advantage over their prey.
Thus it's still odd that they wouldn't have acid-resistant armor if they have the tech since they've never shied away from using their tech before, only discarding items if they're damaged beyond repair.

We don't know if the Predators use technology which they consider advanced for their hunting gear.
Most human hunters also carry much more advanced weapons and utilities than stone age humans, that does not mean that the things they use are high tech.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not convinced that the Xenos aren't a bioweapon/terror weapon. Sure, they are gonna get slaughtered against a competent, well armed (ranged, splash damage) force. However, there are many instances where they are going to wreck havock.

Yeah, they'd kill a few people now and then, and hide in the underground tunnels. That's far scarier than an airborne contagion which could infect millions of people in one day in the same environment. If they're a bioweapon, they're a pretty shitty one.

[Patrick Degan]

Perhaps the Xenos weren't designed to inflict massive damage, but to be a diversion of sorts. In a place like NYC, they are going to take significant time and resources to get rid of, which is going to distract the local populace enough to give an invasion force a useful advantage. Now, assume the SJ's deploy this "weapon" on a planetary scale, and suddenly an entire world is devoting a significant chunk of its resources to getting rid of the Xenos.

Not likely. The Xenos were vulnerable to armour-piercing bullets and fire. They have to breathe air, so there's bound to be a chemical or nerve agent which could affect them fatally. And if we're talking in terms of interplanetary war, a planetary military establishment is going to have troops in the millions to allocate to a fight. Dealing with a bug-infestation in one city is not going to tax or divert resources on that scale to any significant degree.

[Spetulhu]

I'm not convinced that the Xenos aren't a bioweapon/terror weapon. Sure, they are gonna get slaughtered against a competent, well armed (ranged, splash damage) force. However, there are many instances where they are going to wreck havock.

Yeah, they'd kill a few people now and then, and hide in the underground tunnels. That's far scarier than an airborne contagion which could infect millions of people in one day in the same environment. If they're a bioweapon, they're a pretty shitty one.

They are useful for just the kind of thing we see on LV-426. Crashed alien ship with dead pilot? Hapless colonists find eggs and get slaughtered, military intervention is needed. In a society with free news services the details will get out. Civilians will refuse to move to worlds that haven't been thoroughly swept. A few infested colony worlds might be enough to halt a competitor's colonization efforts for a long time.

A sort of area denial terror weapon, not something for really destroying worlds with.

[Anguirus]

Just read a fan-theory on Wiki that the Alien's creators used them as a terraforming tool.

Send them down to a planet with life but no technology, have them obliterate everything, and as they remake the planet they release gases that the masters breathe. The masters wait however many years it takes then get rid f the Aliens (with some sort of poison or command) and move in.

Interesting idea. It's probably not terribly plausible, but hey, nothing about the Alien really is.

[Stark]

It's pretty sad that people don't think an animal bioweapon could have been designed MUCH BETTER to be an 'area denial' 'terror weapon'. Needing to use hosts is a terrible feature, sometimes just killing potential hosts shows how bad the design is, and their nesting behaviour makes them very vulnerable to attacks. You have to shoehorn the aliens into this role, which they are frankly unsuited to and a far superior animal could be created.

[Cao Cao]

Well whatever we may think of the aliens, there was obviously a lot of interest in the company for them as a bio-weapon (I believe Burke makes a reference to their bio-weapons division and how they could make a lot of money).

So within their universe we could either say that:
a) Weyland Yutani is full of dumbasses - possible if jump-the-gun morons like Burke are common in the company.
b) They want the aliens as a limited use terror weapon, not something terribly effective or lethal but a nuisance and a rather scary one to civilian colonists out there on the frontier.
or c) Perhaps WY intended to modify the aliens into something more effective, better breeding cycle or whatever.

[Cao Cao]

Ghetto Edit: Blah I'm absent minded as hell, I forgot to add that if any of my assumptions were true, there's still the question of how the aliens originally came to be.

It could very well be that they were developed as a terror weapon by somebody, somewhere.
However it could be that they're simply a failure. Some alien society breeds a bio-terror weapon, the whole project turns out to be a waste of time, surviving specimens are sent out to be dumped/destroyed but they get loose. Hilarity ensues.

[Skylon]

Not likely. The Xenos were vulnerable to armour-piercing bullets and fire. They have to breathe air, so there's bound to be a chemical or nerve agent which could affect them fatally. And if we're talking in terms of interplanetary war, a planetary military establishment is going to have troops in the millions to allocate to a fight. Dealing with a bug-infestation in one city is not going to tax or divert resources on that scale to any significant degree.

They need to breath air? The one Riply blew out an airlock of the shuttle in the first film seemed to be doing okay until it got blown away by the engine.

[Vendetta]

They need to breath air? The one Riply blew out an airlock of the shuttle in the first film seemed to be doing okay until it got blown away by the engine.

Eventually, they need to breathe. We see them doing it in Aliens.

[Stark]

Just because Burke says he can make money from alien rights doesn't mean he's got a clue. He's a little fast-track toady: he doesn't even seem to work in bioweapons. He just saw 'unique alien lifeform' and his eyes turned into dollar signs - not an unexpected response. Nobody from bioweapons ever came onscreen and said 'we will pay big bucks for this effective terror weapon'. There is certainly money in violent aliens, but to say they just wanted to breed aliens for use is absurd. At worst they'd study their bizarre biology and gengineer a more useful, controllable, flexible version.

[Cao Cao]

Just because Burke says he can make money from alien rights doesn't mean he's got a clue. He's a little fast-track toady: he doesn't even seem to work in bioweapons. He just saw 'unique alien lifeform' and his eyes turned into dollar signs - not an unexpected response. Nobody from bioweapons ever came onscreen and said 'we will pay big bucks for this effective terror weapon'. There is certainly money in violent aliens, but to say they just wanted to breed aliens for use is absurd. At worst they'd study their bizarre biology and gengineer a more useful, controllable, flexible version.

Well according to Alien 3.. *shudder* the company as a whole is interested in the aliens, sending in armed goons and a Bishop series to try and capture Ripley with her chest-burster intact.

[Stark]

So? It's a unique, complex and biochemically-difficult species. The Company clearly wants exclusive rights to it's exploitation and development. Look at the modern patenting of gene sequences, for example.

This in no way supports the idea they wanted to use them as weapons.

[Cao Cao]

So? It's a unique, complex and biochemically-difficult species. The Company clearly wants exclusive rights to it's exploitation and development. Look at the modern patenting of gene sequences, for example.

This in no way supports the idea they wanted to use them as weapons.

Oh I don't dispute that, as their effectiveness as a weapon is basically limited to the realm of quasi-lethal interstellar prank. Which might scare the hell out of some fringe colonists but certainly not worth the effort.

[Stofsk]

I think I've been basing my belief that the Aliens were designed as a bioweapon on the unused Alien 3 screenplay written by William Gibson. I didn't realise it at first, because I had gotten so used to the idea that I didn't challenge it; but without that screenplay the Aliens are no more than scary critters.

[Patrick Degan]

I'm not convinced that the Xenos aren't a bioweapon/terror weapon. Sure, they are gonna get slaughtered against a competent, well armed (ranged, splash damage) force. However, there are many instances where they are going to wreck havock.

Yeah, they'd kill a few people now and then, and hide in the underground tunnels. That's far scarier than an airborne contagion which could infect millions of people in one day in the same environment. If they're a bioweapon, they're a pretty shitty one.

They are useful for just the kind of thing we see on LV-426. Crashed alien ship with dead pilot? Hapless colonists find eggs and get slaughtered, military intervention is needed. In a society with free news services the details will get out. Civilians will refuse to move to worlds that haven't been thoroughly swept. A few infested colony worlds might be enough to halt a competitor's colonization efforts for a long time.

A sort of area denial terror weapon, not something for really destroying worlds with.

The problem is that this is hardly an effective means of denial even on its face. Unless the Xenos are infesting the entire planet (which is hardly feasible given a lack of sufficient numbers of hosts to support such parasitism to begin with), exterminating a few nests is hardly going to consume lots of time or military resources to interfere with colonisation.

[Winston Blake]

Who said the government made the xenos? It's an alien creation, hence why there was a Space Jockey in Alien. At least that's what was implied in the film.

Aliens will have a government, and an alien government unless it was retarded most likely wouldn't invest in such a stupid terror weapon.

We can't assume these aliens have human-like cognition, with human rationality and human reasoning, living under human conditions. For all we know, their behaviour could appear irrational or insane to us. For all we know the Xenomorphs are the equivalent of a little kid-alien flushing his goldfish down the toilet, where its intestinal parasites then attack other intestinal parasites in the sewer that we call the Milky Way.

These aliens are wanked out due to a brain bug. Some people watched the movie Aliens and thought that since the aliens there apparently beat a bunch of armed technologically superior Marines, they must be all-powerful.

These people go on to think up super-duper aliens with telepathic links, superior intelligence and fanboys come to regard them as unstoppable killing machines. The fact that they're connected to the "omg bio-tech destroyes all!!!!11" brain bug compounds this.

The xenomorph in Alien seemed more like a bear hunting a bunch of high-school campers than a mighty warrior from beyond the stars. Perhaps there's a fundamental bias that opposing forces must have parity? That since the xenomorphs are fighting human marines, they must be alien version of marines?

[brianeyci]

We can't assume these aliens have human-like cognition, with human rationality and human reasoning, living under human conditions. For all we know, their behaviour could appear irrational or insane to us. For all we know the Xenomorphs are the equivalent of a little kid-alien flushing his goldfish down the toilet, where its intestinal parasites then attack other intestinal parasites in the sewer that we call the Milky Way.

My point was in response to a claim that the xenos are "terror" weapons. If you don't use humans as a baseline, then there's no point and we don't know what the xenos were for, still countering Stofsk's point about terror.

Like I said we don't know what the xenos are definitely for but if they are for terror they make a terrible terror weapon, meaning it's unlikely that they're a terror weapon. If you don't want to judge based on humans cut out everything in that sentence after "but" and you have it, we don't know anything about them and therefore we don't know they're a terror weapon.

Brian