Were the marines in Aliens competent?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-04-04 12:06am

Plekhanov wrote:The sentry guns were able to take out most of the Xeno's inside the building at very close quarters why wouldn't have been able to do the same outside, when they'd have had far longer to engage the Xenos before they could get at the guns?

During the first attack by the Xenos they took the most direct route in a choke point with no way around from that direction. This allowed them to concentrate all fire on the Xenos with the sentry guns. Even then, the guns themselves ran dry. Out in the open you can't force them into a choke point and your only going to get 2 guns on the Xenos in total.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-04 12:10am

A criticism of the guns is that they wasted a shitload of ammunition. The guns could be put to manual with this outside tactic and be operated through their laptops (hey, they looked pretty damn nice in 1970 I wonder how much the props cost). The tracking could still be automatic but the firing controlled.

Brian

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-04-04 12:12am

Having them modified to fire burst mode would almost certainly have been sufficent. If that was the case, I could see them holding exterior locations near indefinately.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-04-04 12:14am

Alyeska wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:The sentry guns were able to take out most of the Xeno's inside the building at very close quarters why wouldn't have been able to do the same outside, when they'd have had far longer to engage the Xenos before they could get at the guns?
During the first attack by the Xenos they took the most direct route in a choke point with no way around from that direction. This allowed them to concentrate all fire on the Xenos with the sentry guns. Even then, the guns themselves ran dry. Out in the open you can't force them into a choke point and your only going to get 2 guns on the Xenos in total.

Your getting to wrapped up in the channeled fire in a corridor. A machinegun has other 'modes' of fire than that. In fact, current doctrine has an entrirely different intent for them. Anyhoo, from an outside position, the sentry guns could have made (depending on terrain) either an FPL or a PDF for the Marines in a defensive position.

There are other types of fire, than grazing fire. You don't have to worry about individual targets with a machinegun, rather area targets with an ever expanding beaten zone over range.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-04-04 12:16am

The question of the sentry guns programing arrises.

If anyone has info from the Colonial Marines manual, that would help.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2006-04-04 12:19am

Alyeska wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:The sentry guns were able to take out most of the Xeno's inside the building at very close quarters why wouldn't have been able to do the same outside, when they'd have had far longer to engage the Xenos before they could get at the guns?
During the first attack by the Xenos they took the most direct route in a choke point with no way around from that direction. This allowed them to concentrate all fire on the Xenos with the sentry guns. Even then, the guns themselves ran dry. Out in the open you can't force them into a choke point and your only going to get 2 guns on the Xenos in total.

I'm well aware there's no choke point but on the other hand there is open ground which the Xenos have to cross utterly undefended whilst getting chewed up by the sentry guns and by the Marines who will have much more time than they did inside to aim and take their shots and who will be completely safe from being attacked from above or below.

Fighting indoors negates the marines principle advantage which is ranged weaponry and plays to the aliens advantages of agility and stealth, fighting outside does the opposite.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2006-04-04 12:30am

The other point that Darth Wong raises is that if they went to the colony transmitter immediately they could have had airborne evac in an hour, rather than retreat into the compound and bunker up - a strategy that cost them several hours (it must have taken a long time to not only get salvage from the wrecked APC but also to enter the compound, consult the schematics and blueprints, work on barricading the areas as well as setting up the sentry guns etc. Also, Newt and Ripley spent sometime asleep during this period).

Now, the only reasons I can think of to go back to the compound is to 1) check to see if the terminal works inside the operations centre, -this is assuming they didn't already know - and 2) treat Gorman for his injuries and recover Bishop (who was in the compound the whole time during the initial excursion into the hive).

Assuming they already knew that the comm terminal inside the compound wasn't working the next logical thing to do is to head straight to the transmitter and set up base there. Gorman can go get himself fucked, he can tough it out in a stretcher. Bishop ought to have suggested the remote control of the second dropship as soon as the first dropship went down.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-04-04 12:55am

Alyeska wrote:The question of the sentry guns programing arrises.

If anyone has info from the Colonial Marines manual, that would help.

There's nothing on the sentry guns that I can find.

There's a technobabble bit about the motion trackers, though. Maybe someone can decipher it.

Essentially, it is a high-powered ultrasound scanner that uses doppler-shift discrimination to filter out moving objects from the stationary background.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2006-04-04 12:57am

Alyeska wrote:The question of the sentry guns programing arrises.

If anyone has info from the Colonial Marines manual, that would help.

A quick overview says it can sweep 360 degrees and its sensor has a cone of 60 degrees. Also, it can be set to ignore people and vehicles with an IFF transponder.

It's on page 86. There's no picture.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2006-04-04 01:01am

"The number and grouping of rounds fired in a burst is dependent on the target profile, so that the most economical use of ammunition is made."

The unit is designed to not waste ammo and doesn't just go shooting off ammo.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-04-04 01:09am

I think Bishop says, "the crash caused too much damage" or something like that. But as always, Bishop could be wrong and how could Bishop tell unless he inspected the wreckage and was an expert.

Forgot that line. As you note, he may well be wrong. Heck, a traffic accident could have caused reactor disruption if that explosion caused an overload from outside. It's got to be the damage caused inside, which was substantial.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2006-04-04 01:47am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:There's a technobabble bit about the motion trackers, though. Maybe someone can decipher it.

Essentially, it is a high-powered ultrasound scanner that uses doppler-shift discrimination to filter out moving objects from the stationary background.

Sounds like an active sonar to me.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-04 02:06am

neoolong wrote:"The number and grouping of rounds fired in a burst is dependent on the target profile, so that the most economical use of ammunition is made."

The unit is designed to not waste ammo and doesn't just go shooting off ammo.

No visuals of economical ammo use, and 200 x 4 rounds and 150 aliens means that's unlikely. And we visually saw the guns waste tremendous amounts of ammunition on full automatic instead of a burst on the dud, firing at it even when it hit the ground and was torn to pieces. Movie > tech manual.

Brian

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-04 03:57am

Essentially, it is a high-powered ultrasound scanner that uses doppler-shift discrimination to filter out moving objects from the stationary background.

Ultrasonic vibrations that act as an effective location-finding sensor ping through solid walls?

One other problem with the Marines was their reaction upon discovering that they have to go outside to the transmitter. Once they realize that their initial plan was totally fucked, why did they send Bishop by himself? We can say that the xenomorphs had no interest in him, but the Marines had no way of knowing that. Bishop himself was afraid to go.

So they stayed in the HQ building, knowing that they would have to evacuate to the transmitter at some point to get onto the dropship. Then they sent Bishop out by himself, alone and unarmed, even though they would all die if he failed to complete his objectives.

Why the fuck didn't they move there in force as a unit? They have to somehow get there sooner or later anyway; did they have no plan at all for doing this? It certainly seems this way, doesn't it?

Even if you grant them all the horrible mistakes leading up to the moment when they saw that the fusion reactor was going to blow, they are still monumental fuckups.

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2006-04-04 05:26am

Maybe they figured because of the terrain, the weather, and that it was getting dark, they'd hold up in the complex, try to survive the night, and come up with a better plan. Plus, Gorman needed medical attention.

Darth Wong wrote:
One other problem with the Marines was their reaction upon discovering that they have to go outside to the transmitter. Once they realize that their initial plan was totally fucked, why did they send Bishop by himself? We can say that the xenomorphs had no interest in him, but the Marines had no way of knowing that. Bishop himself was afraid to go.

So they stayed in the HQ building, knowing that they would have to evacuate to the transmitter at some point to get onto the dropship. Then they sent Bishop out by himself, alone and unarmed, even though they would all die if he failed to complete his objectives.

Who were they going to send with him? I doubt Hicks, or Hudson would have fit in the pipe he crawled down, and even if they could, I doubt they wouldn't have been able to move to well, slowing Bishop down. Vasquez could have fit, but that was a long crawl, and being human, could have slowed things down as well. Also, they wern't going to send him out unarmed, he refused the gun.

Why the fuck didn't they move there in force as a unit? They have to somehow get there sooner or later anyway; did they have no plan at all for doing this? It certainly seems this way, doesn't it?

Maybe they were waiting till the drop ship was almost there, so they wouldn't be exposed in the open for too long. They only had four pulse rifles with fifty round each, fifteen grenades, and one 1/2 full flame unit. Or, they could have been trying to come up with a plan to get everyone out of there. Maybe if Newt had been awake, she could have told them she knew of a way to get there. Of course there is still the problem with hulling Gorman's unconscious ass out there. And that right there,could be another reason why they were waiting.

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2006-04-04 05:30am

Getto edit

That should be "I doubt they would have been able to move to very well"

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2006-04-04 10:14am

brianeyci wrote:
neoolong wrote:"The number and grouping of rounds fired in a burst is dependent on the target profile, so that the most economical use of ammunition is made."

The unit is designed to not waste ammo and doesn't just go shooting off ammo.
No visuals of economical ammo use, and 200 x 4 rounds and 150 aliens means that's unlikely. And we visually saw the guns waste tremendous amounts of ammunition on full automatic instead of a burst on the dud, firing at it even when it hit the ground and was torn to pieces. Movie > tech manual.

Brian

*shrugs* It's what the book says.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-04-04 10:25am

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: So they stayed in the HQ building, knowing that they would have to evacuate to the transmitter at some point to get onto the dropship. Then they sent Bishop out by himself, alone and unarmed, even though they would all die if he failed to complete his objectives.
Who were they going to send with him? I doubt Hicks, or Hudson would have fit in the pipe he crawled down, and even if they could, I doubt they wouldn't have been able to move to well, slowing Bishop down. Vasquez could have fit, but that was a long crawl, and being human, could have slowed things down as well. Also, they wern't going to send him out unarmed, he refused the gun.

Um-they could have walked there, you know.

Maybe they were waiting till the drop ship was almost there, so they wouldn't be exposed in the open for too long. They only had four pulse rifles with fifty round each, fifteen grenades, and one 1/2 full flame unit.

Which has already been shown would have been sufficient had they been out in the open.

Or, they could have been trying to come up with a plan to get everyone out of there. Maybe if Newt had been awake, she could have told them she knew of a way to get there. Of course there is still the problem with hulling Gorman's unconscious ass out there. And that right there,could be another reason why they were waiting.

Something tells me the colony plans showed the location of the transmitter and a way to get there. Or the could, you know, have asked Newt before she went to sleep. Or do something radical and wake her.
As for Gorman, have Bishop carry him. Problem solved.

TheBlackCat · Post by **TheBlackCat** » 2006-04-04 10:41am

Anguirus wrote:Forgot that line. As you note, he may well be wrong. Heck, a traffic accident could have caused reactor disruption if that explosion caused an overload from outside. It's got to be the damage caused inside, which was substantial.

Except it didn't crash outside, it crashed into the terraforming plant and if I remember correctly continued inside.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2006-04-04 10:59am

brianeyci wrote: No visuals of economical ammo use, and 200 x 4 rounds and 150 aliens means that's unlikely. And we visually saw the guns waste tremendous amounts of ammunition on full automatic instead of a burst on the dud, firing at it even when it hit the ground and was torn to pieces. Movie > tech manual.

Brian

You have to wonder what the targeting profile for a big hunk of metal is though.

Also consider the situation teh guns were seen blazing away in. To quote Hudson.

"They're wall to wall in there."

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-04 11:05am

I mentioned the wall to wall too, but Hicks was going "I can't tell how many" and the cameras were grainy. So Hudson was probably going "wall to wall" cause he saw the ammunition running out so fast.

Aliens were bigger than big hunk of metal so the guns probably wasted even more.

Brian

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2006-04-04 11:19am

Each sentry gun has 500 rounds of ammo btw, so it's 500 x 4 = 2000 rounds total.
They also alternate between constant and burst fire.
Even with the guns firing almost non stop, the aliens get to 15m from the second pair of guns.

The guns are not ideally suited to the role in which they were used. First, they are meant to stop targets with armor. This means using burst fire. Secondly the guns propably use the same type of round as the pulse rifles. Those rounds explode after impact. They don't fully penetrate the target, so all rounds that hit a single alien are absorbed by it, even if it's killed. I don't think the guns can target individual aliens all that well, when they're coming as a wave and the guns mostly would have to rely on motion detectors for target data.

I'm curious. Where is the number of aliens 150 from? There was 60-70 families on the planet, which gives us a lower limit of sorts but not a hard number.

-Gunhead

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2006-04-04 11:27am

Forget I asked. It's 157 to be exact. It's stated when Ripley confronts Burke after hearing from Bishop that Burke wants the specimens alive.

-Gunhead

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-04 12:11pm

There's a sign in the beginning of the movie... population 150ish something. Right before you see the colonists and their kids running around in bikes, and the colony administrator going "someone told me to investigate a grid... I don't ask because it takes two weeks to get an answer."

Brian

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-04 12:34pm

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:Maybe they figured because of the terrain, the weather, and that it was getting dark, they'd hold up in the complex, try to survive the night, and come up with a better plan. Plus, Gorman needed medical attention.

No, they planned to wait there for weeks until a rescue mission was automatically sent. Watch the movie. They're retards.

Darth Wong wrote:One other problem with the Marines was their reaction upon discovering that they have to go outside to the transmitter. Once they realize that their initial plan was totally fucked, why did they send Bishop by himself? We can say that the xenomorphs had no interest in him, but the Marines had no way of knowing that. Bishop himself was afraid to go.

So they stayed in the HQ building, knowing that they would have to evacuate to the transmitter at some point to get onto the dropship. Then they sent Bishop out by himself, alone and unarmed, even though they would all die if he failed to complete his objectives.
Who were they going to send with him? I doubt Hicks, or Hudson would have fit in the pipe he crawled down, and even if they could, I doubt they wouldn't have been able to move to well, slowing Bishop down. Vasquez could have fit, but that was a long crawl, and being human, could have slowed things down as well. Also, they wern't going to send him out unarmed, he refused the gun.

Oh for fuck's sake, they can all move on foot, in force, with their weapons. They have to do this sooner or later in order to get to the dropship, remember? In the end, only Hicks and Ripley actually made it to the transmitter. More to the point, sending Bishop by himself was insane; if he had gotten killed, they would all be fucked. Do you understand? He was the KEY MAN because he was the only person able to remote-pilot the dropship; without him they have zero chance of survival. Protecting him should be their number one priority.