Mexican Flag at school yanked down and Burned

[Sea Skimmer]

!

Xenophobia much?

First off, what legal reason have we to be at war with Mexico? Because some Mexicans hopped the border. Give me a break.

The Mexican Army has fired on US boarder patrol agents many times, that's quite real justification for war. Funny don’t you think how the Mexicans scream racism about the US wanting to secure its own boarder while they use there own military to do the same?

Further, what the fuck could we gain from a War with Mexico? I'd be willing to perhaps tolerate productive evil warmongering, but Mexico is a poor shithole thats main natural resources are desert and cactus.

They have oil fool, and we need to spill some blood to inject into the ground to force it out.

I can't really address the legal issue of illegal immigration since I don't really give a fuck for a change on that particular issue, but somehow I get the feeling you might be overreacting slightly by issuing the death penalty. Just a tad, perhaps. And by tad I mean a gigantic fuckwad.

On Mexico’s southern boarder, the Mexican Army shoots to kill anyone who attempts to cross illegally! Why can they fucking do it but the US can't?

And as for the flag burning, I applaud it. No flag should fly higher then that of the United States on its own soil.

[Gandalf]

Really? Funny how I missed the meeting where their military is better-armed or better-trained than ours.

It doesn't matter how much better our military is if we go to war against Mexico over illegal immigration. Mexican illegals aren't the Mexican Army, dumbass. Defeating the Mexican Army won't do shit to the Mexican civilians who will still be crossing the border.

Would Mexico be likely to have an Iraqi style insurgency?

[Duckie]

The Mexican Army has fired on US boarder patrol agents many times, that's quite real justification for war. Funny don’t you think how the Mexicans scream racism about the US wanting to secure its own boarder while they use there own military to do the same?

Really? I'd like links for that.

Further, did the Mexican government subsequently punish the perpetrators of said actions or not?

Although note that a full scale war over several shots fired and perhaps a casualty or two is still ridiculous. Punitive payments, perhaps a couple of retaliatory clinton-style missiles at worse, IMO.

They have oil fool, and we need to spill some blood to inject into the ground to force it out.

Wouldn't a war with Mexico and subequent occupation cost more for the Oil than to just trade with it?

Maybe at Peak Oil it would be profitable, but right now a war just isn't worth it.

On Mexico’s southern boarder, the Mexican Army shoots to kill anyone who attempts to cross illegally! Why can they fucking do it but the US can't?

Link for Mexican Army shooting to kill?

And as for the flag burning, I applaud it. No flag should fly higher then that of the United States on its own soil.

Quite, I agree, but possibly for different reasons than you. For instance, do you also support the US Flag being burned if hoisted over the Mexican one within Mexican soil?

[Duckie]

Really? Funny how I missed the meeting where their military is better-armed or better-trained than ours.

It doesn't matter how much better our military is if we go to war against Mexico over illegal immigration. Mexican illegals aren't the Mexican Army, dumbass. Defeating the Mexican Army won't do shit to the Mexican civilians who will still be crossing the border.

Would Mexico be likely to have an Iraqi style insurgency?

Is that a rhetorical question?

I don't think it would be nearly as bad as Iraq, but there would still be partisans. There are always partisans when one country occupies another.

That also doesn't factor in international opinion. Mexico may not be a power on the world stage, but it's certainly liked more than Saddam's Iraq.

[Sea Skimmer]

Would Mexico be likely to have an Iraqi style insurgency?

The country isn’t awash in explosives and anti tank weapons, so while they’d no doubt have large scale guerrilla resistance, it would be less effective in many ways and they'd have to use different tactics. The real problem is Mexico has four times Iraqis population but the US could always just occupy a belt of territory along the boarder and declare it a security zone. Anyone entering, making preparations for entering or even thinking about entering gets hit with field artillery. Such tactics worked very well for Israel in southern Lebanon. Theres no need and no point to trying to overrun the entire country. Steal the oil, seal the boarder, thats all.

[brianeyci]

The Mexican Army has fired on US boarder patrol agents many times, that's quite real justification for war. Funny don’t you think how the Mexicans scream racism about the US wanting to secure its own boarder while they use there own military to do the same?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Shouldn't start a war over skirmishes or Pakistan and India would be at war. I'm guessing those Mexican Army soldiers were poorly trained and not under orders from above.

On Mexico’s southern boarder, the Mexican Army shoots to kill anyone who attempts to cross illegally! Why can they fucking do it but the US can't?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

And as for the flag burning, I applaud it. No flag should fly higher then that of the United States on its own soil.

Two wrongs don't make a right. And I find flag wanking and hardcore patriotism a little silly. I would be appaled if a Canadian flag was upside down and let's say a Chinese flag put over top of it, but I wouldn't condone burning a Chinese flag in retaliation. I'd probably condone something a little more benign, like getting a Canadian flag twice the size and flying it from the same pole. And finding the perpetrators and pressing charges if possible.

Brian

[Duckie]

The country isn’t awash in explosives and anti tank weapons, so while they’d no doubt have large scale guerrilla resistance, it would be less effective in many ways and they'd have to use different tactics. The real problem is Mexico has four times Iraqis population but the US could always just occupy a belt of territory along the boarder and declare it a security zone. Anyone entering, making preparations for entering or even thinking about entering gets hit with field artillery. Such tactics worked very well for Israel in southern Lebanon. Theres no need and no point to trying to overrun the entire country. Steal the oil, seal the boarder, thats all.

That is a workable plan.

However, would the cost of this operation pay in terms of stopping immigrants and getting oil?

Would public opinion loss and the international outrage be worth the oil and stopping illegal immigrants?

[Elfdart]

First off, what legal reason have we to be at war with Mexico? Because some Mexicans hopped the border. Give me a break.

That was the excuse they used in 1846.

[Shogoki]

I don't think a war with Mexico is politically nor economically feasible, Mexico being much bigger, more populated and also much richer, and with much stronger connections with its allies, both political and economical, than any country the US has ever started an invasion on other than, well, Mexico itself 2 centuries ago.

Sure, the US would win the straight up battle at first, but only manage to actually occupy a small part of the territory and that's with a full scale draft going on just to cover the border. Not to mention the whole deal would probably trigger a war of the US vs the rest of America, sans Canada, who will probably remain neutral because starting this war killed the US politically, Mexico is, after all, not Afghanistan nor Iraq nor some poor dictatorship, is your neighbor across the border who pretty much shares allies and trading partners with you, and with foreign relationships already in the crapper after Iraq, i don't even know what the US could expect to win with this.

In the end there's really no way the US could win more than it can lose from such a silly war.

[Mal_Reynolds]

I'd hardly call it a 'silly war'. Unlike the bullshit going on in Iraq, the U.S. would actually be, oh I don't know, defending the interests of its citizens from a hostile foreign power?

[Duckie]

I'd hardly call it a 'silly war'. Unlike the bullshit going on in Iraq, the U.S. would actually be, oh I don't know, defending the interests of its citizens from a hostile foreign power?

Hardly. Nobody will buy a war even for that. Business interests to get rid from wage deflating immigrants is what it would boil down to, and perhaps a lot of racism.

Look at the international outcry against the US unjustly getting rid of a tyrant and dictator and installing a friendly regime at gunpoint.

Now look at what would happen with the US unjustly invading and imposing terms upon a respectable if rather backwater nation that people actually are on friendly terms with. A power with ties to the western world.

[Zero]

I'd hardly call it a 'silly war'. Unlike the bullshit going on in Iraq, the U.S. would actually be, oh I don't know, defending the interests of its citizens from a hostile foreign power?

I know what you mean. When I was in Mexico between Sunday and Thursday, the Mexicans repeatedly attacked our hotel, and the hostilities will only increase.

Get real, dumbfuck. Mexicans come here looking for jobs, for money, not to harm the citizens of the US. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it sure as fuck is a silly thing to classify the illegal immigration as actions of a "hostile foreign power."

[Duckie]

If we want a productive place to invade, let's just stabilize Iraq and Afghanistan. Why bother with another invasion of an even more difficult (politically) place when we have all that Oil in a country we already (practically) own?

[Shogoki]

defending the interests of its citizens from a hostile foreign power?

If by "defending the interests of its citizens" you mean political suicide and severing the trades with one of the US biggest trade partners, possibly followed by the ironic application of US style embargos on the US by pretty much all of America, and most likely followed by a lot of other western powers eventually, in case you haven't noticed the world doesnt hold the US in the highest regards.

[Mal_Reynolds]

defending the interests of its citizens from a hostile foreign power?

If by "defending the interests of its citizens" you mean political suicide and severing the trades with one of the US biggest trade partners, possibly followed by the ironic application of US style embargos on the US by pretty much all of America, and most likely followed by a lot of other western powers eventually, in case you haven't noticed the world doesnt hold the US in the highest regards.

And? So? Therefore? Do I understand you to mean that you think it's right the the government We The People elected should give us the finger in favor of foreign criminals, then?

Before anyone raises the cry of 'they're just immigrants!' -- No. They're not. Again, immigration is legal. That's not the process these people are taking.

For another, when employers pay illegals a fraction of what they would have to pay legal employees, only a fraction of the normal flow of capital circulates in the local economy. Mexican nationals also send billions -- billions of American dollars directly out of the American economy, besides costing legally employed taxpayers in the neighborhood of $10 billion in services and other costs, every year.

They also create a colonia effect in neighborhoods where they gather, turning those neighborhoods into recreations of the third world country they left, complete with depressed economy and high crime rates. They're not supporting America's economy, they're helping to destroy it. The benefits to the working American are pure illusion. And last but not least, they break the law to get here.

Is there racism in this debate -- you bet there is. It's coming from those who insist that Mexican citizens are above the law -- that they're a poor oppressed little minority who should be defended from the consequences of their illegal acts. Well, here's a news nugget: They are no more an "oppressed minority" than burglars, drug smugglers or car thieves.

The American government is supposed to serve the interests of the American people. Not the Mexican people, and not businesses, the only entities who reap the real benefit of illegal foreign occupation of this country.

Now you can defend criminals if you want to -- you can defend the actions of a government that has betrayed its people -- but let's have no more illusions that that is what you're doing.

[Mal_Reynolds]

Get real, dumbfuck. Mexicans come here looking for jobs, for money, not to harm the citizens of the US. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it sure as fuck is a silly thing to classify the illegal immigration as actions of a "hostile foreign power."

See above and then take your head out of your ass just long enough to suck my cock, you ignorant little shit. The Mexican military assists illegals, some of them "coyotes" and some of them drug smugglers, in breaching the border. According to La Voz de Aztlan, Vicente Fox talked about establishing a cabinet in his government to assist illegals in occupying the U.S. Illegals retain full Mexican citizenship.

They violate our border and illegally occupy land and jobs here with their government's full blessing and active assistance. That makes Mexico a hostile foreign power. Take your bleeding-heart emotionalist bullshit and go fuck off with it.

[Mal_Reynolds]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

No, but they can prevent getting a subscription to the receiving end of more wrongs. You don't expect to fly tautologies in here, do you?

[brianeyci]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

No, but they can prevent getting a subscription to the receiving end of more wrongs. You don't expect to fly tautologies in here, do you?

Why don't you quote the whole thing with context? The logic was because the Mexican Army attacked illegal immigrants, US should follow suit. Skimmer didn't mention anything about ending the attacks with an attack. Killing non-violent people who are seeking a better life is immoral.

The benefits to the working American are pure illusion. And last but not least, they break the law to get here.

Woo hoo they cost the American treasury billions, cry me a river. People are still helped, and unless someone shows that the help does not exceed the gain, as in down the line these immigrants in second or third generation don't contribute more than their parents, I'm not accepting skewed statistics.

Brian

[Mal_Reynolds]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

No, but they can prevent getting a subscription to the receiving end of more wrongs. You don't expect to fly tautologies in here, do you?

Why don't you quote the whole thing with context? The logic was because the Mexican Army attacked illegal immigrants, US should follow suit. Skimmer didn't mention anything about ending the attacks with an attack. Killing non-violent people who are seeking a better life is immoral.

You fucking moron, learn to read. The Mexican Army isn't attacking illegals, they're helping illegals breach the border and attacking U.S. Border Patrol officers.

The benefits to the working American are pure illusion. And last but not least, they break the law to get here.

Woo hoo they cost the American treasury billions, cry me a river.

Do you have reminders to breathe sewn into your fucking clothing? When the Treasury takes a hit, taxpayers foot the bill.

People are still helped, and unless someone shows that the help does not exceed the gain, as in down the line these immigrants in second or third generation don't contribute more than their parents, I'm not accepting skewed statistics.

And you're obviously also not accepting the fact that these people are coming here illegally. So are you another drooling rider on the "they're above the law" bandwagon? Or do you not care that hardcore criminals, black market weapons, drugs (and very possibly violent radicals) are coming with them?

[brianeyci]

You fucking moron, learn to read. The Mexican Army isn't attacking illegals, they're helping illegals breach the border and attacking U.S. Border Patrol officers.

Why don't you learn to read retard. You took my "two wrongs don't make a right" out of context.

On Mexico’s southern boarder, the Mexican Army shoots to kill anyone who attempts to cross illegally! Why can they fucking do it but the US can't?

I expect an apology dumbass (from Mal).

Woo hoo they cost the American treasury billions, cry me a river.

Do you have reminders to breathe sewn into your fucking clothing? When the Treasury takes a hit, taxpayers foot the bill.

Thank you mr. obvious. Now all you have to show is that the monetary loss is not worth the gain of tax and you'll be at home base.

And you're obviously also not accepting the fact that these people are coming here illegally. So are you another drooling rider on the "they're above the law" bandwagon? Or do you not care that hardcore criminals, black market weapons, drugs (and very possibly violent radicals) are coming with them?

Who said I don't care about criminals, black market weapons, drugs, or radicals? When you talk about illegal immigrants you're talking about criminals, true, but not all criminals are the same stripe. They are just people looking for a better life and killing them for that is retarded, especially with an artillery no-man's land (I half think that Skimmer was being facetious, but I know there are people who think that firing artillery at non-violent people is moral, apparently you're one of them.)

Brian

[Mal_Reynolds]

You fucking moron, learn to read. The Mexican Army isn't attacking illegals, they're helping illegals breach the border and attacking U.S. Border Patrol officers.

Why don't you learn to read retard. You took my "two wrongs don't make a right" out of context.

It wasn't in any fucking context, because you applied it to something you obviously didn't fucking read carefully. In any case, it's still a tautology, and you can still catheterize yourself with it and piss bleach, bitch.

On Mexico’s southern boarder, the Mexican Army shoots to kill anyone who attempts to cross illegally! Why can they fucking do it but the US can't?

I expect an apology dumbass (from Mal).

Well you can sit there and expect until gold falls out of your asshole, asshole. The fact is that the double-standard Skimmer points out, while valid, has nothing to do with Mexican military and paramilitary use of deadly force against our BPOs.

Woo hoo they cost the American treasury billions, cry me a river.

Do you have reminders to breathe sewn into your fucking clothing? When the Treasury takes a hit, taxpayers foot the bill.

Thank you mr. obvious. Now all you have to show is that the monetary loss is not worth the gain of tax and you'll be at home base.

They are illegal. They do not pay as much in taxes as legal employees do. They cost over $10 Billion per annum. There is no way in hell that they generate more than $10 Billion per annum.

And you're obviously also not accepting the fact that these people are coming here illegally. So are you another drooling rider on the "they're above the law" bandwagon? Or do you not care that hardcore criminals, black market weapons, drugs (and very possibly violent radicals) are coming with them?

Who said I don't care about criminals, black market weapons, drugs, or radicals? When you talk about illegal immigrants you're talking about criminals, true, but not all criminals are the same stripe.

No, but they are all... criminals. Is that fact self-evident enough for you? And the same way that these people who just think it's okay to break the law, take jobs they aren't legally eligible for and hemorrhage our economy are getting here is the same way the drugs, the drug dealers, the prohibited weaponry and pretty much any other criminal, including radical Jihadists (for example) can waltz in right along with them.

They are just people looking for a better life and killing them for that is retarded, especially with an artillery no-man's land (I half think that Skimmer was being facetious, but I know there are people who think that firing artillery at non-violent people is moral, apparently you're one of them.)

I do. But since you seem to think it's moral to fuck Americans over in favor of -- again -- criminal foreign nationals (whether overtly hostile or not) is morally acceptable, I think you'd do well to reserve your righteous indignation for someone who gives a fuck.

[Akhlut]

Someone cross check my reasoning on this:

If you're a foreigner and looking to gain acceptance and citizenship in a new country, do you parade around with your old country's flag, or with your new country's flag? I would interperet that if you're constantly running around with your old country's flag, you must love that country the most, and you wouldn't therefore mind returning to your glorious motherland if so ordered to do so.

Where do we send the fuckers flying Confederate flags, then?

[Mal_Reynolds]

Someone cross check my reasoning on this:

If you're a foreigner and looking to gain acceptance and citizenship in a new country, do you parade around with your old country's flag, or with your new country's flag? I would interperet that if you're constantly running around with your old country's flag, you must love that country the most, and you wouldn't therefore mind returning to your glorious motherland if so ordered to do so.

Where do we send the fuckers flying Confederate flags, then?

To the territory that once was the Confederacy. Oops -- wait -- for the most part, they're already there.

[brianeyci]

You fucking moron, learn to read. The Mexican Army isn't attacking illegals, they're helping illegals breach the border and attacking U.S. Border Patrol officers.

Why don't you learn to read retard. You took my "two wrongs don't make a right" out of context.

It wasn't in any fucking context, because you applied it to something you obviously didn't fucking read carefully. In any case, it's still a tautology, and you can still catheterize yourself with it and piss bleach, bitch.

On Mexico’s southern boarder, the Mexican Army shoots to kill anyone who attempts to cross illegally! Why can they fucking do it but the US can't?

I expect an apology dumbass (from Mal).

Well you can sit there and expect until gold falls out of your asshole, asshole. The fact is that the double-standard Skimmer points out, while valid, has nothing to do with Mexican military and paramilitary use of deadly force against our BPOs.

Sure it doesn't, but my point wasn't countering the Mexican army attacking US Border patrol. It's there for anybody to see--SS saying because the Mexican Army shoots illegals in the South, the US should be justified doing the same which is obviously false logic. I learned long ago not to make verbose posts and two wrongs don't make a right is a nice short retort to somebody who says "because A does this B can do that".

Obviously you're brain damaged so you need me to explain it to you. Or maybe you're just an "us versus them" retard.

They are illegal. They do not pay as much in taxes as legal employees do. They cost over $10 Billion per annum. There is no way in hell that they generate more than $10 Billion per annum.

You have nothing to show? Good. And you are probably right--they probably don't generate ten billion a year just from a quick google search. But if they cost nine billion a year there's a simple solution--deny illegal immigrants benefits, at least the ones who don't deserve it. And it takes time for first generation immigrants to get on their feet.

But here's one thing you miss--these services help people. And the cost to the American taxpayer is not great considering two point four billion a day is added to the debt. Ten billion to help millions of people? A bargain. If there's inefficiencies or fraud those should be dealt with.

Ever heard of the greater good, universal human rights? Of course not, you label all these people bleeding hearts, but I'd rather be a bleeding heart than an asshole who only cares about the bottom line.

No, but they are all... criminals. Is that fact self-evident enough for you? And the same way that these people who just think it's okay to break the law, take jobs they aren't legally eligible for and hemorrhage our economy are getting here is the same way the drugs, the drug dealers, the prohibited weaponry and pretty much any other criminal, including radical Jihadists (for example) can waltz in right along with them.

Then deal with jihadists, drug dealers, gun runners and so on differently than illegal immigrants who don't do any of those things. Mainly don't deport illegal immigrants who are able to support themselves and don't commit serious crimes.

They are just people looking for a better life and killing them for that is retarded, especially with an artillery no-man's land (I half think that Skimmer was being facetious, but I know there are people who think that firing artillery at non-violent people is moral, apparently you're one of them.)

I do. But since you seem to think it's moral to fuck Americans over in favor of -- again -- criminal foreign nationals (whether overtly hostile or not) is morally acceptable, I think you'd do well to reserve your righteous indignation for someone who gives a fuck.

Say again? You do think that firing artillery at illegal immigrants, the majority who are not gun runners or drug dealers or anything like that but just people out to get a better life is moral? .

Brian

[brianeyci]

As for this ten billion dollar figure being bandied about, it comes from here. It's absolutely retarded because 4.5 billion of that is from education of illegal alien's children who are citizens of the United States. When they get a K-12 education they will come out and work and be productive tax paying citizens so the education is worth the investment.

Brian