The Science of dodging Bullets

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2002-12-09 11:43am

Ok, we've all seen many character dodge bullets in movies, television, and comic books.

I think it would be relevant to discuss exactly what is needed to dodge bullets, as a method of comparison for various 'VS' debates.

So, anyone care to enlighten?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2002-12-09 11:50am

I'd say very fast reflexes...

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-12-09 11:54am

I was trying to work out a scientific basis for bullet dodging so I think I can make a pretty good case...

Three things are needed

Perception
Reaction
Movement

PERCEPTION:

You must ba aware of the bullet coming at you.
You must be able to tell where the bullet will hit you, and then avoid it.
You must be able to tell if there are more bullets so further evasive action can be taken.

The best solution would be psychic-type powers. Since most psychics apparently have some limited future awareness they can "see" a bullet coming for them and act ahead of time.

A second-rate solution would be excellent eyesight, to pick put small bullets moving at supersonic speeds. However this means you can only dodge what you can see.

Since the bullets move so fast echolocation would be useless. But non-visual imaging(or expanded vision cones) would help in that respect, provided the information could reach you before impact.

REACTION:

You must be capable of processing the information that the bullet will hit you.
You must be able to command your muscles (or other movement organs/subsystems) to take the appropriate actions.
Additionally it may be important to be able to rapidly change direction to avoid subsequent rounds.

It would be best to have a hyper-augmented nervous system (preferably one using optical transmissions to make up for the limited window in which to dodge)

Sufficiently accelerated mental systems would perceive bullets as moving very slowly, allowing for a larger margin of error in perception and evasion.

MOVEMENT:

You must be able to move fast enough to avoid the bullet.

Obviously you would want some kind of cybernetic limb system with extremely quick firing times and possessed of great motive power.

Others: The capacity to manipulate the rate of time passage is also very helpful in dodging bullets. For example, a being with a time compression ratio of 1:60 (i.e he experiences 60 seconds for every one of ours) would perceive all objects as moving at 1/60th speed. He would also be able to react faster, though ot may be a challenge overcoming inertia. Also, if the guy simply isn't fast enough he won't be able to dodge effectively.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-09 12:14pm

And that's pretty much for a single bullet ESB.

When I see a chracter dodge multiple...and they are still thinking they are real(be it book or otherwise) I just enter a nicer suspension of disbelief.

Dodging one with what you gave is great...dodging a spray is virtually impossible even with reflexes for the simple point that your body is too big and the spray doesn't give you enough room for the volume you have...unless in the same eyeblink you dodge one...you are leaping a hundred feet in the air.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-12-09 12:23pm

Ghost Rider wrote:And that's pretty much for a single bullet ESB.

When I see a chracter dodge multiple...and they are still thinking they are real(be it book or otherwise) I just enter a nicer suspension of disbelief.

Dodging one with what you gave is great...dodging a spray is virtually impossible even with reflexes for the simple point that your body is too big and the spray doesn't give you enough room for the volume you have...unless in the same eyeblink you dodge one...you are leaping a hundred feet in the air.

I agree.

Anyway, I did not intend my post to be the be-all end-all on the subject... I fully expect other people to correct it. Like you.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-09 12:27pm

Oh I know...at least you gave something for a Single bullet

My thing of multiples is that basically you see the main dodge multiple Uzis and easily...I mean the amount of coverage is insane...and they are considering this to be more real than say Superman talking in space?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-09 12:38pm

Majin Gojira wrote:Ok, we've all seen many character dodge bullets in movies, television, and comic books.

Only in "The Matrix", and even then, only during the "bullet-speed" sequences. Most cases of dodging bullets are not really dodging bullets so much as reacting to the impact or getting lucky.

When you see a baseball player hit a ball and then lean to the right as the ball moves to the left, do you believe he is actually using psychokinesis in order to move the ball right? Of course not; he is engaging in self-delusion. Similarly, someone who tries to dodge bullets is just wasting energy; by the time he starts moving, the bullet has already hit the area he's standing on, and it's only the laws of probability that decide whether he'll be hit or not.

Even in "The Matrix", most of the scenes aren't really bullet-dodging. In the fight with the security guards in the lobby, for example, their movements are fast but fluid (ie- not juking), so that if the guards were good, they could have easily adjusted and killed them. Their survival was due to the guards' incompetence and shock/surprise more than any ability to dodge bullets (obviously, the "bullet-speed" shots with Neo dodging the Agent's bullets are a different case; he's actually dodging, although it should be noted that if the Agent had been using an Uzi, he would have eaten hot lead anyway).

I think it would be relevant to discuss exactly what is needed to dodge bullets, as a method of comparison for various 'VS' debates.

So, anyone care to enlighten?

A subsonic handgun bullet travels at roughly 300 metres per second. At the <10 metre ranges where combat normally occurs in movies, this means you have roughly 0.03 seconds to move out of the way. If you must move at least one foot in order to do this, this means you must accelerate at a rate of more than 600 m/s^2 (60 G's).

This is wildly impractical; your feet do not have enough friction on ground contact to allow you to move that quickly.

That's why bullet-dodging doesn't make any sense. Some kind of prescience or remarkable sensory attunement (seeing precisely where the gun is pointed and reacting before the trigger is pulled) is necessary, in which case it's not so much "dodging" as prediction.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2002-12-09 01:24pm

You could always copy Shalashaska in MGS2 and have a small device that emits a strong EM field to deflect bullets off course at range.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-09 01:28pm

Please...no MGS stories...sorry the first one disgusted me with the whole dominant/recessive bullshit.

The second one was even more so.

Hell I say it's just should been his endurance...Snake can take missles...and the bosses have more life...why say a devices...they're all minor supermen/women.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2002-12-09 01:58pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Please...no MGS stories...sorry the first one disgusted me with the whole dominant/recessive bullshit.

The second one was even more so.

Hell I say it's just should been his endurance...Snake can take missles...and the bosses have more life...why say a devices...they're all minor supermen/women.

It escaped you that it was a game didn't it?

I guess when you snipe someone in the head and they die in one shot then it isn't real. Play it on European Extreme level and watch as you and your enemies behave realistically. Far better challenge.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-09 01:59pm

I know it's a game...still doesn't take away I can use a ration to heal anything...and besides I like Splinter Cell more...less story more game...and no prissy wannabe ninja.

guyver · Post by **guyver** » 2002-12-09 02:03pm

The idea that strikes me as almost possible is from the movie "Remo Williams The Adventure Begins"

In the movie one of the main charters (Chiun) is teaching the hero (Remo) how to dodge bullets. He says you must listen to the sound of the tendons in the shooters hand.

Now I know that this would only work if you could hear that and the guy is in front of you and not using an automatic.

Remo Williams: You know, Chiun, there are times when I really like you...
Chiun: Of course! I am Chiun!
Remo Williams: ...and there are times when I could really kill you.
Chiun: Good! We will practice that after dinner.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2002-12-09 02:06pm

Ghost Rider wrote:I know it's a game...still doesn't take away I can use a ration to heal anything...and besides I like Splinter Cell more...less story more game...and no prissy wannabe ninja.

I must admit, the Ninja in MGS2 was nothing on Frank "Grey Fox" Jaegar.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-09 02:09pm

You can say the name of evil...Raiden

And not to take off topic...I still want to know why games hvae even the ultra realistic dodge machine gun fire?

I mean c'mon, if this is supposed to be real...you're not...and be done with it...I mean heck half the times my supposed uber Delta Force/SAS/uber solider can only jump 3 feet(if that)...and this is more real than Mega Man?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-09 02:47pm

Dodging bullets is essentially impossible; the scenario I can concoct in my head would be hard enough to set up on a 2000 meter firing range. However it is possibul for things as large as tanks to dodge missiles and rockets.

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2002-12-09 02:50pm

Dodging bullets tends to be a hollywood thing, the only way to really dodge a bullet is to not be in its path to begin with. A good example would be Vash from Trigun. He precieved the bullet trajectory by the angle of the gun barrel and was able to move before the round was fired, though close enough to the fireing were it seemed that he "dodged the bullet" (Episode 2).

Multiple bullets from multiple origins requires one and one thing only, luck. Moving helps one dodge because most people aim AT their target rather than lead it when they fire. They take the 'spray and pray' approach that does nothing for them unless they lead the individual.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-09 03:04pm

Unless you can do some funky time shit it's impossible. Even then your funky time shit must be extremely good.

Stormin · Post by **Stormin** » 2002-12-09 03:16pm

Just like in the game Max Payne, bullet time is cool to watch but pretty much impossible for a normal human to do (at least at short range and starting movement after the bullet has been fired)

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-09 03:21pm

Stormin wrote:Just like in the game Max Payne, bullet time is cool to watch but pretty much impossible for a normal human to do (at least at short range and starting movement after the bullet has been fired)

Even then you could not dodge bullets. More then one time I fired a sniper rifle and as I watched the sniper bullet I saw it travel through a cloud of buckshot and the slow motion ended with Max taking a shot to the face from said buckshot.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-09 07:41pm

The biggest problem in dodging bullets is newton's third law of motion - in order to move your body out of the way of a bullet, you would have to accelerate at more than 60 G's. In order to do that, you would have to apply an equivalent force on another object. In the Matrix, where Neo's method of bullet dodging was basically to do the limbo, his actions would be comppletely impossible in real life. Where is the reaction force? It certainly isn't gravity he's using to duck - the fastest that can acclerate you is 9.8 m/s^2, and it would be pulling the bullet down just as fast. Nor could you move sideways - as Wong mentioned, there isn't nearly enough friction to move that fast either. So unless you can jump straight up from a standing position without needing to crouch first, you have about as much chance of dodging a bullet as Darkstar does of losing his wall of ignorance.

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-12-09 07:51pm

You can do like the Highguard and have smart bullets that can intercept bullets before they hit you.

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-12-09 07:53pm

data_link wrote:The biggest problem in dodging bullets is newton's third law of motion - in order to move your body out of the way of a bullet, you would have to accelerate at more than 60 G's. In order to do that, you would have to apply an equivalent force on another object. In the Matrix, where Neo's method of bullet dodging was basically to do the limbo, his actions would be comppletely impossible in real life. Where is the reaction force? It certainly isn't gravity he's using to duck - the fastest that can acclerate you is 9.8 m/s^2, and it would be pulling the bullet down just as fast. Nor could you move sideways - as Wong mentioned, there isn't nearly enough friction to move that fast either. So unless you can jump straight up from a standing position without needing to crouch first, you have about as much chance of dodging a bullet as Darkstar does of losing his wall of ignorance.

If you could accelerate to more than 60 G's without tearing your muscles, you might not need to dodge the bullet. The tensile strength of the muscles capable of 60 moments would act like Kevlar rendering the person bulletproof.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-09 08:31pm

Stormin wrote:Just like in the game Max Payne, bullet time is cool to watch but pretty much impossible for a normal human to do (at least at short range and starting movement after the bullet has been fired)

A newbie! POKE
It might be possible to dodge bullets, but not in the literal sense. I mean like somebody sniping from a few k yards away... The bullet will take time to travel, so if you move fast enough, you might be able to pull it off.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-12-09 08:47pm

Exonerate wrote:
Stormin wrote:Just like in the game Max Payne, bullet time is cool to watch but pretty much impossible for a normal human to do (at least at short range and starting movement after the bullet has been fired)
A newbie! POKE
It might be possible to dodge bullets, but not in the literal sense. I mean like somebody sniping from a few k yards away... The bullet will take time to travel, so if you move fast enough, you might be able to pull it off.

if you could SEE the bullet to dodge it...

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-09 08:54pm

Who care about seeing it, all you have to do it run around like your pants are on fire.

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The Science of dodging Bullets

The Science of dodging Bullets

Re: The Science of dodging Bullets