Teaching kids how to be a dishonest fundie

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-02-12 11:46pm

And the sad thing is that, being young kids, they buy it hook line and sinker, and it will take years to deprogram the lies.

SpacedTeddyBear · Post by **SpacedTeddyBear** » 2006-02-12 11:55pm

One just hopes that there is that one cynical kid in class that asks " How do we know God exists if he doesn't even bother to appear before us?" Or something of that sort.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-02-13 12:09am

SpacedTeddyBear wrote:One just hopes that there is that one cynical kid in class that asks " How do we know God exists if he doesn't even bother to appear before us?" Or something of that sort.

The kid gets things thrown at them at high velocity after school. That route sucks and doesn't pay off until the later years.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-02-13 12:14am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:And the sad thing is that, being young kids, they buy it hook line and sinker, and it will take years to deprogram the lies.

If they're deprogrammed at all. As an aside, the Bible explicitly instructs this sort of activity: "Bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

sketerpot · Post by **sketerpot** » 2006-02-13 12:43am

Spice Runner wrote:Does anyone have a link to any good statistics on the growth of fundamentalist Christianity in the U.S. in the last decade? Has this sort of idiocy been growing or declining in the U.S. in the last few years? Is there any hope for the future?

Fundamentalism has actually been decreasing in percentage of the population recently, but that's due more to demographic shift towards younger people than to any enlightenment sweeping the land. And that certainly doesn't mean that the power of fundamentalism is declining; fanatical followers tend to vote.

Ariphaos · Post by **Ariphaos** » 2006-02-13 01:39am

Spice Runner wrote:Does anyone have a link to any good statistics on the growth of fundamentalist Christianity in the U.S. in the last decade? Has this sort of idiocy been growing or declining in the U.S. in the last few years? Is there any hope for the future? :?

Declining, slowly, but significantly. Note the backlash against the Dover board of education and the Terri Schiavo case. It's obvious that they hold a disproportionate amount of power.

The fundies are getting vocal because they know it's happening. It'll be at least a couple decades before they lose their grip, on the US, though.

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2006-02-13 03:19am

Personally I don't care about the "free speech" issue when it comes to such deliberately pernicious bullshit being promoted to children as truth. It should be illegal. That kind of material is so easily disproved that it hasn't a leg to stand on. A law protecting impressionable young children from pseudoscience would be a good step.

LaCroix · Post by **LaCroix** » 2006-02-13 08:14am

I am actually trying to emigrate from my country... I had my choices narrowed in to:

USA and Hungary.

Time to attend a hungarian course...

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2006-02-13 08:21am

Justforfun000 wrote:Personally I don't care about the "free speech" issue when it comes to such deliberately pernicious bullshit being promoted to children as truth. It should be illegal. That kind of material is so easily disproved that it hasn't a leg to stand on. A law protecting impressionable young children from pseudoscience would be a good step.

Of course, in a few years you'll have fundie judges ruling that Evilution is a brainwashing pseudoscience. It's things like this that make me worry about the nature of humanity.

I recently looked at Timecube, and was struck by this almost poetic phrase: "Faith IS NOT knowledge, but evil of not measuring." Evil of not measuring, indeed.

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2006-02-13 11:27am

Any law restricting free speech sets a dangerous precedent. Realistically, this is not shouting fire in a crowded theater, and to make a law like that puts too much power in the hands of the one interpreting it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-13 11:30am

I suspect a lot of these parents are probably abusive. Just ask yourself how the kind of parent who puts his kid through this kind of aggressive brainwashing would react to his child expressing doubts about the Biblical creation story. He'd probably "beat some sense into him" because "if you spare the rod, you spoil the child". Then he'd put him through this kind of organized brainwashing in order to "fix" him.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-02-13 11:33am

I only have one word for this: disgusting.

Spice Runner · Post by **Spice Runner** » 2006-02-13 11:54am

Darth Wong wrote:I suspect a lot of these parents are probably abusive. Just ask yourself how the kind of parent who puts his kid through this kind of aggressive brainwashing would react to his child expressing doubts about the Biblical creation story. He'd probably "beat some sense into him" because "if you spare the rod, you spoil the child". Then he'd put him through this kind of organized brainwashing in order to "fix" him.

I've come across people like this, hell I even have relatives that use their authority status to push their dogma upon their children. I have not seen as much of the "using the rod" with the children" as I have seen the abuse of parental authority. The brainwashing begins early and continues unquestioned. The sad thing is that some of my relatives would actually rather see their children out of the house and on the street rather than turn from the faith. Frankly, it's quite disgusting.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-13 11:55am

Spice Runner wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I suspect a lot of these parents are probably abusive. Just ask yourself how the kind of parent who puts his kid through this kind of aggressive brainwashing would react to his child expressing doubts about the Biblical creation story. He'd probably "beat some sense into him" because "if you spare the rod, you spoil the child". Then he'd put him through this kind of organized brainwashing in order to "fix" him.
I've come across people like this, hell I even have relatives that use their authority status to push their dogma upon their children. I have not seen as much of the "using the rod" with the children" as I have seen the abuse of parental authority. The brainwashing begins early and continues unquestioned. The sad thing is that some of my relatives would actually rather see their children out of the house and on the street rather than turn from the faith. Frankly, it's quite disgusting.

Ah yes, the "shunning" method of parental discipline. Often used by entire communities (this is done by the Mennonites and the Amish).

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2006-02-13 03:00pm

Of course, in a few years you'll have fundie judges ruling that Evilution is a brainwashing pseudoscience. It's things like this that make me worry about the nature of humanity.

But they can't DISPROVE it. Judges shouldn't be making a ruling on Science themselves anyway. Actual scientists and their combined weight collectively as expert witnesses can be used to evaluate what is science and what is not.

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2006-02-13 03:06pm

Any law restricting free speech sets a dangerous precedent. Realistically, this is not shouting fire in a crowded theater, and to make a law like that puts too much power in the hands of the one interpreting it.

But free speech is not absolute. There ARE restrictions already and the exceptions on it are for extremely good reasons. This example looks like another one to me. People are FAR too soft-shoed in their actions toward religious brainwashing. Matters of faith that cannot be evaluated are a different story as science has nothing to say on them anyway, but a deliberate cult-style brainwashing lying about Evolution perpetuated on young kids who are completely defenseless and vulnerable? People don't think that protecting children from this kind of harmful misinformation is more important than a person's "free speech" to ram it down their throat so they can create little Bible zombies?

I wouldn't see a problem with a restriction whatsoever.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-13 03:08pm

You can't absolutely prove or disprove that any given scientific theory is true or false, because science and philosophy don't work that way. However, you can disprove clearly fraudulent claims about what science does and does not say, such as those of people who misrepresent the second law of thermodynamics and pretend to be experts in it. People who do that sort of thing should be charged with fraud, seriously.

Fraud, after all, is not protected by freedom of speech.

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2006-02-13 03:20pm

You can't absolutely prove or disprove that any given scientific theory is true or false, because science and philosophy don't work that way. However, you can disprove clearly fraudulent claims about what science does and does not say, such as those of people who misrepresent the second law of thermodynamics and pretend to be experts in it. People who do that sort of thing should be charged with fraud, seriously.

I thought someone would point that out. lol. I know you can't fully disprove anything as an actuality, but I referenced the scientist collective opinion as the deciding factor because it IS their discipline after all and I'm quite confident there would be no contest between real science and the extreme nonsense of religious creation myths.

I like the idea about fraud. In fact, they could borrow from Italy and instate that law the atheist was in the news lately trying to use against a local priest. "Abuse of popular belief" which results in fraudulently deceiving people.