Should Sheehan be focused on meeting Bush?

[Durandal]

I've been thinking. Sheehan has become a powerful symbol for the anti-war movement, but she insists that all she wants is to meet the president. But he's already met with her, and this makes her look like she's dogging him. That opens up yet another avenue of attack from the right.

Now that she's got a good fire going in her engine, should she just drop the whole "meet Bush" thing and make other demands? Like demand a public apology for running an incompetent war or something along those lines? Or how about just demanding a timetable for troop withdrawal? That's something eminently reasonable that Bush still refuses to provide.

Basically, she's already demanding something that she's probably not going to get, but if she does, it won't really accomplish anything. Say he sits down with her. Then what? There's nothing he's going to say to her that'll make any difference. And if he does sit down with her, her movement will be defused.

Thoughts?

[Mr Bean]

That is the sane and logical way of dealing with the situation and defusing it.

But then if its one things this adminstration knows is that it knows how to do everything right because its them doing the thing that they do because its the right thing to do because "God told them"(TM)

In other words its more likley that the Sheehan situation will delt with by Rove when he spins the Wheel of Morality and does what it tells him to.

[Glocksman]

It all depends upon what her goal *is*.
I'd say it's fairly obvious that her demand to meet with Bush was a means to an end, and not the end in of itself.

If her goal is to energize the far left which is already opposed to Bush's policies without attracting 'mainstream America', then she needs to keep on doing what she's doing.

If her goal is to bring the mainstream into her cause, then she needs to quit sticking her foot in her mouth and calling the foreign insurgents 'freedom fighters' and saying that she would have denied her son a military funeral and shouldn't have let him be buried in uniform.

That kind of bullshit may work at the DU forums, but it won't do anything except antagonize 90% of the people she's trying to reach.

[HemlockGrey]

I'm not a real big fan of using Sheehan as a rallying symbol for the antiwar movement anyway. The decision about the viability of a war should not be based on emotional factors.

[Elfdart]

I've been thinking. Sheehan has become a powerful symbol for the anti-war movement, but she insists that all she wants is to meet the president. But he's already met with her, and this makes her look like she's dogging him. That opens up yet another avenue of attack from the right.

Anyone who disagrees in public with the Bush Junta gets slimed. Two weeks ago on Meet the Press, Byron York of the National Review said the White House didn't want to attack Sheehan. Translation: they already sniffed around for any dirt they could to throw at her. The fact that they had to resort to Holocaust deniers, Nazis, ex-Black Panther groupies and a white supremacist dope addict shows just how hard they had to scrape the sewer.

Now that she's got a good fire going in her engine, should she just drop the whole "meet Bush" thing and make other demands? Like demand a public apology for running an incompetent war or something along those lines? Or how about just demanding a timetable for troop withdrawal? That's something eminently reasonable that Bush still refuses to provide.

Demanding a meeting with Bush has its benefits:

1) It shows Bush for the coward he is.

2) It shows Bush for the liar he is.

3) It shows how much of the far Right is made up of people with pus in their souls.

4) It can be dragged out (a month and counting) for a long time.

5) It shows that Bush and his crowd have no fucking class.

Basically, she's already demanding something that she's probably not going to get,

Of course not! She knows what a coward Bush is. Surely she must know Bush would never meet her. It's about putting Dubya on the spot and it's worked pretty well so far.

but if she does, it won't really accomplish anything. Say he sits down with her. Then what?

Since that requires a smattering of human decency and courage, Bush could never bring himself to do it.

There's nothing he's going to say to her that'll make any difference. And if he does sit down with her, her movement will be defused.

At this point, Bush can't meet with her without looking like an even bigger pussy than he does already. His henchmen have already tried to slime Sheehan, but Sheehan has managed to beat them at their own game: appeals to emotion. The difference is Sheehan has some clout and the Bush Junta doesn't when it comes to dead soldiers and Marines.

In comparison, when Clinton had to attend memorial services for the men killed in Somalia, he knew he wasn't going to be popular. He was a draft-dodger, supported (half-heartedly) gays in the military, and bore ultimate responsibility for Mogadishu. One of the mourners castigated him, shouting "You suck and those boys died!". Clinton took his lumps like a man and came across as dignified for once. Clinton, by the way, was the target of at least three assassination attempts from dittoheads and had some reason to fear for his safety from hostile crowds. He didn't pussy out like Bush, though.

Thoughts?

Sheehan has said she's leaving Crawford in a week or so, I believe. I think it would be great if other parents who lost their sons or daughters thanks to Bush's lies made a kind of traveling road show to hound our Cokehead Texas Caligula everywhere he goes.

[Durandal]

She's going on the road to set up camp outside the White House when Bush gets back, I think.

[Mr Bean]

She's going on the road to set up camp outside the White House when Bush gets back, I think.

Good freken luck, Winter kills her kind off around here. Its all fine and dandy to protest when its nice outside but twenty degree weather with a constant eight to twelve knot wind off the bay makes things mighty cold.

Plus there realy is only one place left for mass protests aside from the mall and if she's hogging it up where does that leave the rest of the two-bit nuts with an axe to grind? (Not to compare her to them as the two-bit nuts only protest one day a year for something no one cares about and is rarley explained well.)

[HemlockGrey]

The fact that they had to resort to Holocaust deniers, Nazis, ex-Black Panther groupies and a white supremacist dope addict shows just how hard they had to scrape the sewer.

Amusingly enough a group of Stormfront neo-Nazis were planning to go to Crawford to support the antiwar movement. Hopefully Sheehan has the sense to keep out of the spotlight.

2) It shows Bush for the liar he is.

Maybe, but I think a crowd of people shouting "Where the WMDs?" would accomplish that particular goal better.

Since that requires a smattering of human decency and courage, Bush could never bring himself to do it.

Wait, didn't he already meet with her?

Also, I vaguely recall some poll where Sheehan was approved by like 30% of the population...anyone know what I'm talking about?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Yes, Bush met with her, grieved with her, and there's even a picture of them hugging. Of course Sheehan will tell you she was in shock, and she's had a great revelation about Bush.

I think she's a sad, sad woman who is venting her grief and should be given our pity and not the spotlight.

[Knife]

I've been thinking. Sheehan has become a powerful symbol for the anti-war movement, but she insists that all she wants is to meet the president. But he's already met with her, and this makes her look like she's dogging him. That opens up yet another avenue of attack from the right.

Now that she's got a good fire going in her engine, should she just drop the whole "meet Bush" thing and make other demands? Like demand a public apology for running an incompetent war or something along those lines? Or how about just demanding a timetable for troop withdrawal? That's something eminently reasonable that Bush still refuses to provide.

Basically, she's already demanding something that she's probably not going to get, but if she does, it won't really accomplish anything. Say he sits down with her. Then what? There's nothing he's going to say to her that'll make any difference. And if he does sit down with her, her movement will be defused.

Thoughts?

If she drops the 'meet with Bush' bit, she will lose a lot of sympothy with the mainstream public. She's said quite a few questionable things, like the jews running the war and the 'freedom fighters' who killed her son.

Even those who agree with the war can sympothize with a grieving mother who wan't to vent at sombody. But when, I think, she drops the 'reasonable' part and pretty much all is left is the ranting and raving, she'll loose a lot of support.

If she switches to another reasonable argument, like you suggest, then yeah, she can keep going. I don't think an apology would work, but perhaps a pullout after the Iraqi Consistution is made, she'd be able to keep going.

[Elfdart]

She's going on the road to set up camp outside the White House when Bush gets back, I think.

Good freken luck, Winter kills her kind off around here. Its all fine and dandy to protest when its nice outside but twenty degree weather with a constant eight to twelve knot wind off the bay makes things mighty cold.

If she and her crowd can tough it out in central Texas (104F today) in August, cold isn't going to deter them.

Plus there realy is only one place left for mass protests aside from the mall and if she's hogging it up where does that leave the rest of the two-bit nuts with an axe to grind? (Not to compare her to them as the two-bit nuts only protest one day a year for something no one cares about and is rarley explained well.)

One reason this protest worked so well is that Crawford is such a tiny place and had a lot of White House reporters with nothing else to report. Being lazy as hell, why wouldn't they cover Sheehan's protests when the story fell right into their laps? I don't know if this would work in Washington or major cities.

[HemlockGrey]

Amusingly enough a group of Stormfront neo-Nazis were planning to go to Crawford to support the antiwar movement. Hopefully Sheehan has the sense to keep out of the spotlight.

I meant keep THEM out of the spotlight. Ghetto edit.

[Elfdart]

If she drops the 'meet with Bush' bit, she will lose a lot of sympothy with the mainstream public. She's said quite a few questionable things, like the jews running the war and the 'freedom fighters' who killed her son.

Where did she say "jews" were running the war? You asshole.

Yes, Bush met with her, grieved with her, and there's even a picture of them hugging. Of course Sheehan will tell you she was in shock, and she's had a great revelation about Bush.

I think she's a sad, sad woman who is venting her grief and should be given our pity and not the spotlight.

You may find this hard to believe, but most people don't use memorial services, wakes and funerals as an opportunity to bitch people out, no matter how much they might loathe them. Are you that socially stunted?

Maybe, but I think a crowd of people shouting "Where the WMDs?" would accomplish that particular goal better.

They've been at it for over two years with little or no effect on public opinion. Sheehan has been at it for a few months, and along with the Plame case and the Downing Street Minutes, had reduced Dubya's popularity to about the same level as Nixon's when Tricky Dick was being run out of town.

Wait, didn't he already meet with her?

See above.

[Knife]

Where did she say "jews" were running the war? You asshole.

The email she sent to Nightline, though to be fair, she say's it was 'altered'. Supposedly;

Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel. Am I stupid? No, I know full well that my son, my family, this nation and this world were betrayed by George Bush who was influenced by the neo-con PNAC agendas after 9/11. We were told that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hate our freedoms and democracy … not for the real reason, because the Arab Muslims who attacked us hate our middle-eastern foreign policy.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124788/sidebar/2124791/

So she admits atleast writting an email and giving it to James Morris after some bit with Nightline, who then gave it to Executive Producer Tom Bettag of Nightline.

I haven't seen anything at all that really discredits this, except for Cindy Sheehan herself saying it was changed.

[SirNitram]

Well, having read PNAC's own think-tank reports, she's at least half-right. In politics, half right is pretty good from anyone.

[Knife]

Well, having read PNAC's own think-tank reports, she's at least half-right. In politics, half right is pretty good from anyone.

'Project for the New American Century' just sounds creepy, if you ask me. But yeah, her spewing crap doesn't change the fact that Bush and co. are assholes too.

[HemlockGrey]

They've been at it for over two years with little or no effect on public opinion. Sheehan has been at it for a few months, and along with the Plame case and the Downing Street Minutes, had reduced Dubya's popularity to about the same level as Nixon's when Tricky Dick was being run out of town.

I dunno. That's fine if the only goal is to defeat the Republicans, but I think the ideal goal would be to have a reasonable, intelligent discourse about the direction of America's foreign policy, and Sheehan hurts rather than helps that goal.

Yeah, yeah, I'm living in fantasyland, but still...

[Mr Bean]

If she and her crowd can tough it out in central Texas (104F today) in August, cold isn't going to deter them.

You underestimate the power of the windchill.
Not to mention the power of DC's winters(Every two to three years)

But then when she does come here, I'll be sure to stop by and ask her in person(If I can get through her handlers she might have) and ask her which is easier? The 24F here? or the 104F in Texas

One reason this protest worked so well is that Crawford is such a tiny place and had a lot of White House reporters with nothing else to report. Being lazy as hell, why wouldn't they cover Sheehan's protests when the story fell right into their laps? I don't know if this would work in Washington or major cities.

I'm making the point that thanks to security measures around the Captial and the amount of spaces closed off that there realy is only two good places left for a mass protest, one is the mall and the other is the second sidestreet off the White House, the rest are closed off to everyone last I checked. It would be a little funny to see what happens when the million mom/man marches come through(When this drags on long enough) and Sheehan is already kipped up in the protest grounds with her own group.

That said I'll toss in the counterpoint that because reporters are lazy and they somehow missed the staggering numbers of homeless and street walkers all around DC all the time and with so many headquarters here that they will once agian be covering here when she's in DC maybe a check in at the top of the hour or on top of the Good Morning type shows.

[Zorak]

Sad part is, she has ANOTHER son in Iraq if I recall right now. Oh that would be a fun interview...

I don't get her. She's obviously just being used by anti-war movements since she already met Bush and spoke well of him then all of a sudden low and behold, a year later after recieving funds from Move On she is all "Bush sucks! I want an interview with Bush!" Its funny though, when peole interview her and they bring this up she automatically hangs up or leaves. I remember a few times where Reporters just kicked the some of her lies (I believe for one she claimed she was doing something ro not doing something the night before the same time she was doing Larry King or something like that, it was a month or so back) and she just keeps leaving and hanging up, it was hillarious. Avoiding the question doesn't make it go away hehe.

I heard rumors that the american communist party and various other contemporaries of it were funding her as well, but those might just be rumors. Doesn't overly matter though.

[jegs2]

I think Shehan should contact all the anti-war protesters protesting at the Army Hospitals, Recruiting Stations and MEPS and tell them to join her. Better that protesters protest in front of those who make policy, rather than against soldiers doing their jobs. Protesting Recruiting Stations makes as much sense to me as protesters not liking a particular law and then protesting police stations.

[Glocksman]

I think Shehan should contact all the anti-war protesters protesting at the Army Hospitals, Recruiting Stations and MEPS and tell them to join her. Better that protesters protest in front of those who make policy, rather than against soldiers doing their jobs. Protesting Recruiting Stations makes as much sense to me as protesters not liking a particular law and then protesting police stations.

That goes back to what I said earlier about not alienating the people whose support you're trying to gain.
We can argue all day about whether or not the foreigners fighting in Iraq are the 'freedom fighters' that she said they were, but the simple fact is that calling the people who are killing US soldiers such will piss off the great majority of Americans and convince them that she's simply part of the DU looney tunes left.

If she needed a value neutral term, 'insurgents' would have worked much better.
It's even the term the great majority of news agencies use.
Who the fuck is she listening to that calls them 'freedom fighters' anyway?

[Davis 51]

Where did she say "jews" were running the war? You asshole.

The email she sent to Nightline, though to be fair, she say's it was 'altered'. Supposedly;

Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel. Am I stupid? No, I know full well that my son, my family, this nation and this world were betrayed by George Bush who was influenced by the neo-con PNAC agendas after 9/11. We were told that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hate our freedoms and democracy … not for the real reason, because the Arab Muslims who attacked us hate our middle-eastern foreign policy.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124788/sidebar/2124791/

So she admits atleast writting an email and giving it to James Morris after some bit with Nightline, who then gave it to Executive Producer Tom Bettag of Nightline.

I haven't seen anything at all that really discredits this, except for Cindy Sheehan herself saying it was changed.

Last I checked, that email said Israel, not Jews.
I am very interested in seeing where she said "Jews" were running the war. However, as you said, it might have been altered. But that could put Nightline in some serious shit.

I sympathize with Cindy. Her son was killed in a war that shouldn't have happened, and when she sets up a perfectly legal protest, The right wing swings mud at her from every direction. That's not to say I agree with her on aevery aspect (like calling the terrorists 'freedom fighters.' That's too far.), but I just kinda feel sorry for her.

[SirNitram]

This is certainly a unique situation. Far from the declarations of our own right-wingers, well, I'll let these quotes stand on their own.

First from Pat Buchanan, on CNN.

BUCHANAN: Well, the White House certainly hasn't trashed her. But I think she deserves a lot of credit, because this was an issue that kind of was out there, but she's given it focus. The national media went down there day after day. She's a very compassionate -- somebody that draws your compassion and concern. And I think she's a very good spokesperson for the anti-war movement.

As for the woman who Bush has singled out to be the 'Anti-Sheehan'... Also from CNN..

ZAHN: Tammy, do you think Cindy is dishonoring the service of those that are currently in Iraq fighting?

T. PRUETT: You know, that’s a really tricky question.

Personally, as a mother, I feel her pain. Obviously, I can’t feel it to the extent that she does. But I totally empathize with her feelings. It wouldn’t be the way that I would choose to honor one of my sons if it happened to our family.

Compassion? Empathizing? Not exactly stuff we've seen attached to the anti-war movement thus far. Of course, the spin machine may be picking up speed.

[Knife]

Last I checked, that email said Israel, not Jews.
I am very interested in seeing where she said "Jews" were running the war. However, as you said, it might have been altered. But that could put Nightline in some serious shit.

Gee, my bad. She said the country with all the damn Jews in it.

I sympathize with Cindy. Her son was killed in a war that shouldn't have happened, and when she sets up a perfectly legal protest, The right wing swings mud at her from every direction. That's not to say I agree with her on aevery aspect (like calling the terrorists 'freedom fighters.' That's too far.), but I just kinda feel sorry for her.

I think most people feel sorry for her, and I think most people agree and support her right to protest. Just some of the things she says *and to be honest, some of the things her detractors say* makes you wanna go

[SirNitram]

Gee, my bad. She said the country with all the damn Jews in it.

Gods, not this again. If you have an argument against her saying it's for Israel's benefit, go ahead. But this bullshit of 'You said something against Israel, you're talking bad about Jews' has always been bullshit. Don't bring it here, it's insulting to the intelligence of the board and makes you look like a twit. Just admit you made a mistake and move on.

Seriously, that damn strawman is so fucking worn out.