18-Till-I-Die wrote:
The only problem with Critical Hit is that most of its stuff is fairly old.
However, IIRC Games Workshop has a similar canon policy to that of Wars-- fluff is canon unless contradicted by newer material. So sure, go ahead, most of this will still be good except for the Squats, some Nid stuff, and so forth...
I'm pretty sure that GW doesn't have any sort of codified "canon policy" as such. The GW hobby tends to emphasize creativity on the part of the participants, so they actually make a lot of things deliberately vague and contradictory to leave room for interpretation.
Any old stuff on the Squats should be acurrate, as there isn't any new stuff on the Squats!
Currald wrote:It seems to me that if the Guard dug in, the Republic would need superior numbers to dislodge them. 3:1 is a frequently bandied-about ration, IIRC.
Define how well dug in. Are they going to be dug in well enough to withstand sustained bombardment by thousands of 100-kiloton range-directed-yield fusion rockets? (to say nothing of nuclear-yield bombardment by thousands of Juggernauts..)
Connor MacLeod wrote:What's the rate of fire/range of the Hydra? What's the velocity of its shells? (I imagine it would be at least comparable to modern AAA)
The Hydra's refire rate seems to be comparable or superior to the ZSU-23-4 per gun. Don't know about range or shell velocity though.
Then I assume its at least as good as modern AAA, perhaps maybe several times to an OoM better (Given the difference in performance of most of their hardware.) Not sure if this would be enough to give them an advantage against gunships though.
They'd probably be better off investing in substantial air support of their own.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Define how well dug in. Are they going to be dug in well enough to withstand sustained bombardment by thousands of 100-kiloton range-directed-yield fusion rockets? (to say nothing of nuclear-yield bombardment by thousands of Juggernauts..)
It depends how much time and resources the Guard have to work with, since if they get enough time and equipment then establishing a theatre shield isn't out of the question.
"I do not say the French cannot come. I only say they cannot come by sea." - Admiral Lord St. Vincent, Royal Navy, during the Napoleonic Wars
"Show me a general who has made no mistakes and you speak of a general who has seldom waged war." - Marshal Turenne, 1641
Matt Huang wrote:what's the difference between ARC troopers and more elite IoM Imperial Guard units like Cadian Shocktroopers?
ARC troopers can take out tanks with their rifles.
IoM grenadiers, stormies and Kasrkin can be equipped with plasma guns and melta guns, though. Take a couple of such guys, give the sergeant a plasma pistol and power weapon, and 2-3 hellgun armed riflemen for support. Also, take melta bombs for the squad.
SirNitram wrote:Except the Guard is not built to fight with mobility. Hell, their tank speeds are fairly sad; Imperial Armour lists the speed of everything but Tank Hunters under 40 klicks per hour. On roads. The Republic is simply better trained and equipped to fight manevuer battles, the Guard too optimized for trenches. Which the Republic won't bother with.
This is undeniably true. Though there are certain elite formations of drop troops like the Harakoni Warhawks, most Guard armies are pretty static compared with their Wars counterparts.
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TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
Both forces are planet bound without reinforcements and both have equal mobility surface side. Valkyries and Vultures will give the Guardsmen LAAT equivalents and their fighters are just as scary.
Doesn't matter. By merely digging in, the Guard is scarificing any form of mobility it has and it can't force the Republic soldiers to fight it on its own terms, because the Republic has the range to defeat the Guard logistic train. The very fact that they're unable to receive reinforcements only helps the Republic. Depending on how canon you want to take Republic Commando, Delta Squad was responsible for taking out a Genosian "lieutant" and his war room and cripple a droid foundry in the same day, with the capture of the Core ship codes being more likely than not to have been accomplished on the same day too. Given that kind of mobility and independence+lack of support, any Republic force with ARCs with them could simply outmove any dug in force and cripple the logistic train that supplies it.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
fgalkin wrote:More wankish than moon-sized planet destroying battlestations?
Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
At least it doesn't have a giant wang jutting out. It has a nice, subtle slice missing. If it was a nine hundred kilometer wang, it'd be pretty bad.
Ph34r the 900 km boob of DOOM!
Though if you want to talk about absurdities, the Catachan barking toads have to be mentioned. These little critters will hop around inoccuously until something startles them, in which case they explode with tremendous violence. The game rules give them a blast comprable to that of an orbital lance strike - and these are the lesser barking toads, mind. The background notes mention that there is such a thing as a greater barking toad, but no rules are available for them: it is suggested that if one were to go off on the battlefield, a new gaming session would have to be started (in a game with super battletanks like the Baneblade and more).
So: if some of the things in 40k seem a bit absurd, it bears remembering that the designers do display a rather twisted sense of humour at times.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
To Connar, the Inquistior Sourcebook suggests that at times guardsmen can be so well dug in that they can survive literal years of non-stop artilery bombardment. Things such as portabe Void shield generators, and other such things could allow them to force a Hoth style engagement, which would be to the advantage of the IG.
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We're not just doing this for money; we're doing this for a shitload of money!
For the Guard to able to force a Hoth style engament, they'd need to be able to force the Clones to attack them. IG in general has the tactical flexibility of a lame duck. It either steamrolls forward, or digs in and holds.
Even if the IG can deploy a void shield that can withstand all that the Clones can throw at it, they'd still need to protect their supplies. Supplies need to move, and I seriously doubt the IG can field enough void shield generators to cover their whole supply chain.
-Gunhead
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel
"And if you don't wanna feel like a putz
Collect the clues and connect the dots
You'll see the pattern that is bursting your bubble, and it's Bad" -The Hives
Lord Zentei wrote:So: if some of the things in 40k seem a bit absurd, it bears remembering that the designers do display a rather twisted sense of humour at times.
...They've ripped off Prachett's Swamp Dragons. This is on par with Voyager ripping off the Hitchhiker's Guide.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Lord Zentei wrote:So: if some of the things in 40k seem a bit absurd, it bears remembering that the designers do display a rather twisted sense of humour at times.
...They've ripped off Prachett's Swamp Dragons. This is on par with Voyager ripping off the Hitchhiker's Guide.
Hey i take offense with comparing 40K to Voyager!
Shit the backstory for one of the Space Marine chapters, all by itself, is more interesting than virtually all of Star Trek, IMO.
Gunhead wrote:For the Guard to able to force a Hoth style engament, they'd need to be able to force the Clones to attack them. IG in general has the tactical flexibility of a lame duck. It either steamrolls forward, or digs in and holds.
-Gunhead
Er, caouldn't the Guard's Deathstrike ICBMs force an attack? The Clones have to silence them, or endure constant barrages from warp missiles, void missiles, multi-warhead missiles, haywire missiles, etc. etc.
Sure it could. Then again, if the IG possess ICBMs, the clones would field their ICBM equivalent. Then this whole versus would turn into a MAD scenario and would become a bit pointless. No, I'm not sure what would be the clone ICBM equivalent, but I'm sure someone who is more knowledgeable about clone weaponry can come up with and idea or two.
It should also be possible for the Clones to shoot down ICBMs even with their ground AA assets. They sure as hell are powerful enough.
-Gunhead
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel
"And if you don't wanna feel like a putz
Collect the clues and connect the dots
You'll see the pattern that is bursting your bubble, and it's Bad" -The Hives
Unless the IG entrench in a ring with their supplies in the center and have a theater-style void shield system over them, the Clones are just going to use their superior mobility to outflank them and hit them in the rear, which usually spells doom for any force. It would sort of be like the U.S. vs. Iraq in the first Gulf War. Now if the IG can entrench as mentioned then it comes to a straight assault with the Clones concentrating and using massive firepower to knock down their shields (especially from SPHA-Ts and SPHA-Is) and to break their lines, similar to the Battle of Geonosis, which could mean MAD or a costly Clone victory.
"It is not necessary to hope in order to persevere."
-William of Nassau, Prince of Orange
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Gunhead wrote:Sure it could. Then again, if the IG possess ICBMs, the clones would field their ICBM equivalent. Then this whole versus would turn into a MAD scenario and would become a bit pointless. No, I'm not sure what would be the clone ICBM equivalent, but I'm sure someone who is more knowledgeable about clone weaponry can come up with and idea or two.
Uh, yeah. As soon as that person pipes up, you'll have apoint here.
It should also be possible for the Clones to shoot down ICBMs even with their ground AA assets. They sure as hell are powerful enough.
-Gunhead
Hmmm, yeah. Let me dig up my Deathstrike quotes... Ah yes, from Armies of the Imperium[/b] (1991) by Jervis Johnson and Rick Priestley:
Tactical missiles have complex robotic guidance systems which enable them to seek out and destroy their target... the missile climbs high into the air from w-here its camera can see the whole battlefield. Once the missile's robotic brain has selected a target the missile dives down to ground level from where it heads towards the target at slow speefd, weaving round buildings and other obstructions, and dodging incoming fire.
Epic Armageddon, IIRC, states that their have intercontinental range.
Just because the main infantry force of the Imperial Guard is slow-moving, doesn't mean that they don't have mobile units. Tank companies, Leviathans, mechanized infantry units, etc, will be able to respond quickly to an attack. It's not completely like WWI!
NRS Guardian wrote:Unless the IG entrench in a ring with their supplies in the center and have a theater-style void shield system over them, the Clones are just going to use their superior mobility to outflank them and hit them in the rear, which usually spells doom for any force. It would sort of be like the U.S. vs. Iraq in the first Gulf War. Now if the IG can entrench as mentioned then it comes to a straight assault with the Clones concentrating and using massive firepower to knock down their shields (especially from SPHA-Ts and SPHA-Is) and to break their lines, similar to the Battle of Geonosis, which could mean MAD or a costly Clone victory.
clones and walkers can walk throuh energy (particle) shields.
Currald, that quote really didn't make the deathstrike missile invulnerable to ground fire. Even if ground weapons couldn't hit them, the clones could employ fighters to shoot them down.
The description of the deathstriker is more similar to a cruise missile than it is to an ICBM.
The main point however was that, if people start bringing in WMDs into this debate, we could just debate about who has the strongest theater shield, or such, the most powerful anti theater shield weaponry and/or means of bypassing one.
I do know that IG has mobile units that can move quickly. At army level however the GAR is like a hyperactive bunny on speed and the IG is a snail caught in a blizzard.
-Gunhead
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel
"And if you don't wanna feel like a putz
Collect the clues and connect the dots
You'll see the pattern that is bursting your bubble, and it's Bad" -The Hives
Tau vs GAR might be a bit more of an even match, given the effectiveness of Tau pulse rifles and other weapons--aren't individual Tau Firewarriors vastly superior to individual Imperial Guard troopers, both in terms of weaponry and personal armor?
Tau specialist troops, like the Stealth and Pathfinder troops, would be a real benefit, as would the presence of Gun Drones. Not to mention the potential effectiveness of Crisis and Broadside suits, and Tau Hammerheads and Devilfish. I don't know how fast the Hammerheads and Devilfish are, but they may be able to improve the mobility of the Tau troops enough to keep up with the Clonetroopers--aren't Tau extremely dependent on manuever warfare, since they're physically inferior to most WH40K races that favor melee combat?
DocHorror wrote:Yeah, but void shields can be set to stop physical matter.
ROTS kinda clearly shows shields will stop physical matter.
I know that, I was refering to the fact that he said clones and walkers could pass through a void shield. Theres no arguement that SW sheilds can stop either or both matter and energy.
Lord Zentei wrote:So: if some of the things in 40k seem a bit absurd, it bears remembering that the designers do display a rather twisted sense of humour at times.
...They've ripped off Prachett's Swamp Dragons. This is on par with Voyager ripping off the Hitchhiker's Guide.
Actually, the barking toads were a staple of the original Rogue Trader book, way back in the day. The crazy old book where mutants were rolled for randomly and could potentially destroy an entire army by looking at it funny. Those were the days.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
darth korte wrote: clones and walkers can walk throuh energy (particle) shields.
But LAATs can't go through theater shielding.
Besides I was mainly referring to the fact that the void shields would need to brought down in order for fire from outside the shield to do any damage to the IG, particularly from long-range artillery. Also, I was mainly pointing out that (unlike in WWI where they had no airlift capacity and were able to entrench from the English Channel to Switzerland no one was able to outflank the other, which is standard practice in dealing with trenches) the Clones being able to easily outflank the IG will be able to win hands down unless the IG comes up with a way to prevent from being outflanked. Which the only way I could see that they could accomplish that would be forming a circular trench with void shields to keep from being vertically envelped or bombarded to death.
"It is not necessary to hope in order to persevere."
-William of Nassau, Prince of Orange
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.10
Gunhead wrote:Sure it could. Then again, if the IG possess ICBMs, the clones would field their ICBM equivalent.
SPHA-T turbolaser variants (mini HTLs) and probably the Acclamators QTLs. Plus their missiles. Its also possible the SPHA-T missile variants could carry high yield (IE Gigaton+) range warheads.
Then this whole versus would turn into a MAD scenario and would become a bit pointless. No, I'm not sure what would be the clone ICBM equivalent, but I'm sure someone who is more knowledgeable about clone weaponry can come up with and idea or two.
See above.
It should also be possible for the Clones to shoot down ICBMs even with their ground AA assets. They sure as hell are powerful enough.
-Gunhead
LAATs could probably do it, but thats one of the reasons I specified laser cnanon equipped SPHA-Ts - they'd make better anti-air platforms against that sort of attack (100 or so of thsoe with SW grade laser cannons? 20 bols per second at high kiloton-low megaton range outputs..)
-- Asuka
