Manticore vs. The Tau

[Connor MacLeod]

At what speed is teh impact occuring?

Several tens of kilometers a second, possibly higher relative velocity.

The fighter is impacting into the missile at this speed or is that the speed the missile is traveling at?

Aside from that, what was the missile's speed? If this was a head-on collision I think the combined velocity matters.

[Black Admiral]

The fighter is impacting into the missile at this speed or is that the speed the missile is traveling at?

The torpedoes' speed is in the high tens, low hundreds of KPS.

Aside from that, what was the missile's speed? If this was a head-on collision I think the combined velocity matters.

Not sure about the combined speed, upper limit's probably in the region of 4-500 kps (using the velocity of Word Bearer boarding torps from Iron hands).

[HRogge]

You're kidding.. right? You're seriously claiming that a light cruiser can power fourteen energy torpedoes? And therefore must be capable of delivering at LEAST 14 gigatons of firepower? What actual proof are you basing this off of, since going by the recoil, 1 gigaton is perhaps the BEST you could expect from energy torpedoes (at least the ones mounted in Fearless.)

No... I'm saying that energy torpedo weapons could be a power multiplyer for the HH side... if a Dreadnough can fire a low to medium gigaton broadside with lasers, it maybe can fire a medium ( maybe even high ? ) gigaton broadside of energy torpedos if you rip the lasers/grazers out.

In addition to this energy torpedos seem to have a high rate of fire... their drawback is their low range ( 1 lightsecond ).

[Connor MacLeod]

No... I'm saying that energy torpedo weapons could be a power multiplyer for the HH side... if a Dreadnough can fire a low to medium gigaton broadside with lasers, it maybe can fire a medium ( maybe even high ? ) gigaton broadside of energy torpedos if you rip the lasers/grazers out.

In addition to this energy torpedos seem to have a high rate of fire... their drawback is their low range ( 1 lightsecond ).

So if an idnivdual E-torp is more powerful than a graser, and they can fire more e-torps than grasers in a given span of time... where is all this extra energy for the e-torps coming from? Thin air?

[HRogge]

So if an idnivdual E-torp is more powerful than a graser, and they can fire more e-torps than grasers in a given span of time... where is all this extra energy for the e-torps coming from? Thin air?

Maybe the efficience of an energy torpedo is higher... grazers and lasers are built with exact focus, long range and penetration in mind, energy torps not.

In addition to this energy torpedos just shoot fusion plasma from a reactor, so there is not as much energy conversion involved.

[Connor MacLeod]

Maybe the efficience of an energy torpedo is higher... grazers and lasers are built with exact focus, long range and penetration in mind, energy torps not.

In addition to this energy torpedos just shoot fusion plasma from a reactor, so there is not as much energy conversion involved.

Perhaps, but your logic is still faulty:

1.) Radiation and particle shielding is NOWHERE as powerful as the etorp output you're suggesting. Given the momentum-handling limits of the particle shielding, its unlikely that the recoil bracings of the weapons are going to be substantially greater (if they were, why can't they brace the particle/ray shielding generators that well?)

2.) Its unreasonable to assume that an etorp is going to be more than an order of magnitude more efficient than a laser (given what efficeiencies are possible for modern day lasers.)

What's more, heat dissipation is STILL a limiting factor. All the energy that doesn't go into the laser qualifies as waste heat, and that must be dissipated. And before you start up with the "Wedge disposes of the heat" excuse, recall that they have to transmit the energy FROM the systems to the wedge, through the ship. Considering that a low-gigaton yield of energy is more then sufficient to outright destroy (Ie vaporize) even a superdreadnought, I doubt the systems responsible for that are an order of magnitude (or more!) greater than the ship as a whole itself can take.

And if you're going to start trotting out the "high end" for the Honorverse, maybe the 40Kers shoudl starrt trotting out their higher end calcs (which I know are going to be better htan anything the Honorverse can pull up, since I've been farily involved in analyzing both universes.)

[Connor MacLeod]

The fighter is impacting into the missile at this speed or is that the speed the missile is traveling at?

The torpedoes' speed is in the high tens, low hundreds of KPS.

Aside from that, what was the missile's speed? If this was a head-on collision I think the combined velocity matters.

Not sure about the combined speed, upper limit's probably in the region of 4-500 kps (using the velocity of Word Bearer boarding torps from Iron hands).

Hmm.. with a 200 ton fighter and say 20 km/s.. we're talking at least approximately 10 kilotons worth of energy hitting the torpedo.

AT 200 km/s, the KE is about one megaton.

Both are somewhat conservative, as I am not accounting for the fact this is a head on collison (the momentum of the torpedo would likely contribute to the collison) Its quite possible the armor can withstand multi-megaton yields (and if its shielded it could be much more.)

Odds are, I doubt point defense alone will stop it (lasers might, but they don't fire as rapidly as point defense does.)

[HRogge]

Hmm.. with a 200 ton fighter and say 20 km/s.. we're talking at least approximately 10 kilotons worth of energy hitting the torpedo.

AT 200 km/s, the KE is about one megaton.

Both are somewhat conservative, as I am not accounting for the fact this is a head on collison (the momentum of the torpedo would likely contribute to the collison) Its quite possible the armor can withstand multi-megaton yields (and if its shielded it could be much more.)

Odds are, I doubt point defense alone will stop it (lasers might, but they don't fire as rapidly as point defense does.)

The best way to stop something like this is an antimissile. A man portable missile without a warheads were used in "Flag in Exile" against a Pinasse... and it was able to track it even after the wedge of the Pinasse was switched off. I see no reason why ship based antimissiles shoudl rely on gravity based sensors alone if smaller ones can mount both type of sensors.

[Dahak]

2.) Its unreasonable to assume that an etorp is going to be more than an order of magnitude more efficient than a laser (given what efficeiencies are possible for modern day lasers.)

It might be unreasonable, but e-torps still shred a ship in no time with far greater power than normal energy armament could.
Where that energy comes from has never been discussed, though...
And since DW hates the grav lance/e-torp thing with a vengeance nowadays its unlikely we'll see it again in a book...

[HRogge]

It might be unreasonable, but e-torps still shred a ship in no time with far greater power than normal energy armament could.
Where that energy comes from has never been discussed, though...
And since DW hates the grav lance/e-torp thing with a vengeance nowadays its unlikely we'll see it again in a book...

Maybe the problem of the Etorp is that it eats up fusion plasma for each shot in addition to the energy necessary to accelerate the plasma and create the electromagnetic bottle...

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/Ha ... _lance.htm
As for your comment on the grav lance and larger ships, virtually all RMN ships larger than CAs/BCs (and some of the latter) routinely mount a grav lance in each broadside. They're extremely unlikely to get the opportunity actually to use the thing because of range constraints, but if the chance does arise, the Manties fully intend to make use of it. The Peeps, on the other hand, see absolutely no point in mounting the damned thing (remember, they still don't know exactly how Honor took out the Sirius in OBS), and in this instance, the Graysons tend to go along with the Peeps.

So maybe we will see the grav-lance again... but as a weapon of a dreadnough/superdreadnough ( or maybe a battlecruiser ).

It might be a good way to shoot down a bow wall on short distance...

[Jalinth]

So maybe we will see the grav-lance again... but as a weapon of a dreadnough/superdreadnough ( or maybe a battlecruiser ).

It might be a good way to shoot down a bow wall on short distance...

You might see energy torps (since it looks like they were routinely a minor part of a ship's armament) in an unusual situation, but not the grav-lance. It has turned into a fanbase brain bug that he has desperately tried to kill - without that much luck.

Exactly why these torps are so much stronger than grasers/lasers? Never explained.

[HRogge]

Exactly why these torps are so much stronger than grasers/lasers? Never explained.

I think it's because their direct use of fusion plasma... no need for multiple energy conversions, just shoot it directly at your opponent... this way it might be a very efficient weapon.

[Nephtys]

Exactly why these torps are so much stronger than grasers/lasers? Never explained.

I think it's because their direct use of fusion plasma... no need for multiple energy conversions, just shoot it directly at your opponent... this way it might be a very efficient weapon.

Perhaps the power usage is primarilly in the containment of the shells, instead of having to route power to capacitors, then fire off blasts as it converts multiple times like what's said. Since the plasma itself would be 'free' to generate, a byproduct of the power plant.

[Connor MacLeod]

The best way to stop something like this is an antimissile. A man portable missile without a warheads were used in "Flag in Exile" against a Pinasse... and it was able to track it even after the wedge of the Pinasse was switched off. I see no reason why ship based antimissiles shoudl rely on gravity based sensors alone if smaller ones can mount both type of sensors.

You mean the missile launched at Honor's pinnace by the assassins? It lost lock but reacquired it at the last second:

In technical terms, what Master Chief Troubridge was trying to do was generate a miss. In layman's terms, he was deliberately crashing his own pinnace in a desperation bid to drop out of the SAM's acquisition envelope . . . and praying he could recover in the instant before he hit the ground and killed everyone on board himself. It was a virtually impossible maneuver, but Gil Troubridge was very, very good, and he almost managed it.
Almost.
He had to pull up, and he hauled the nose desperately back, riding his abused, howling turbines and air foils and simultaneously throwing in the counter-grav, but he was perhaps one meter low, and the pinnace's tail slammed into the ground. The impact snapped the sleek craft almost straight upright, but it didn't quite go over. For an instant it hung there, and Troubridge felt a moment of terrible relief. His copilot had gotten the emergency landing skids deployed. When the bird came down on them, it would be all—
That was when the SAM executed its terminal attack run.
The small, high-tech kamikaze had lost its target when Troubridge dove for the deck, but its seekers had reacquired lock, and it came slashing in at over ten kilometers per second. Even so, the pilot had almost denied it a hit, and its impeller wedge's leading edge caught the pinnace's rearing nose one bare meter aft of the radome.

In reality, it only made a glancing hit, but only because the counter-grav came back on and found it (the pilot had to reactivate counter-grav or crash, basically.)

Anyhow, counter missile use will depend on how far away they engage from and how long the Manties have to use them (and the range they detect them at.) Without the grav sensors in THoTQ, Fearless couldn't detect Thunder of God's missiles at ranges more than half a million kilometers, and at the velocity they traveled at, the time was too short for counter missiles to effectively hit them. It doesnt sound likely that a torpedo travels quite as fast as those missiles did (not even close!), but it also lacks the massive, sustained graviitc signature of a wedge.

(interestingly enough, the "Flag in Exile" incident you describe suggests that the primary damage mechanism was KINETIC ENERGY, not some technobabble Grav-wedge effect. In other words, the wedge transferred KE to the target, which apparently came from the missile itself.)

[Connor MacLeod]

It might be unreasonable, but e-torps still shred a ship in no time with far greater power than normal energy armament could.
Where that energy comes from has never been discussed, though...
And since DW hates the grav lance/e-torp thing with a vengeance nowadays its unlikely we'll see it again in a book...

And what difference is that supposed to make, exactly? All it tells us is that laser and graser firepower is considerably lower than some people believe (its easier to attribute the difference in firepower to inefficiencies with a laser weapon than to the idea the Etorp can generate energy from thin air.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Exactly why these torps are so much stronger than grasers/lasers? Never explained.

I think it's because their direct use of fusion plasma... no need for multiple energy conversions, just shoot it directly at your opponent... this way it might be a very efficient weapon.

Plasma is not very efficient, since the more energetic it becomes the more it expands (and its going to expand in all directions, ,wasting the enegy even whe it does impact, aside from the decrease in intensity that the "expansion" will induce.) Indeed its going to be a poor penetrator.

Given that these "plasma torpedoes" move at near-c velocity, they behave more like a parrticle beam than a "plasma weapon", (it may not even really be "plasma" per se, just a mass of charged particles or ions.), meaning the damage mostly comes from KE (which alleivates some of the problems, though the expansion still is going to reduce energy unless its a fairly "cool' plasma.) Particle beams are generally more penetrateive and more energy-efficient than lasers IIRC, but alot shorter ranged. (Penetration may be one reason they are so destructive - given how often fusion reactor "explosions" seem to contribute to ship damage, its possible that etorps can penetrate deeply enough to blow capacitors and reactors and whatnot.)

And of course, its also quite possible that Honorverse defenses quite simply suck against particle beams as well and that without the sidewall they'd be screwed.

Of course, the sidewalls are another factor. Consdiering that most laser-graser fire observed has to pass "through" a sidewall and that the sidewall generally spreads out the energy of the beam (meaning that the energy in the laser hits over a much wider area, like a nuke.), the difference in effects can be attributed ot the fact that sidewalls generally reduce the overall intensity of the lasers in most situations (other situations, like with the Fearless in THOTQ where a sidewall is down, suggest that even heavy cruiser energy weapons can damage something as large as a battlecruiser.) Etorps, since they're only effective without a sidewall active, aren't going to be interdicted by anything except ray/particle shields, but the superdreadnought King Roger had its ray/particle shielding active when it was blasted apart. Same with the BC Malik when it died to multiple nuke detonations.

However, even given most of the above, its still blatantly absurd to assume "orders of magnitude" differencee in raw energy between the two weapons.

[Dahak]

(interestingly enough, the "Flag in Exile" incident you describe suggests that the primary damage mechanism was KINETIC ENERGY, not some technobabble Grav-wedge effect. In other words, the wedge transferred KE to the target, which apparently came from the missile itself.)

No, the damage mechanism was that the Wedge of the SAM and its gravitic strength which sliced the pinnace in half...

[Connor MacLeod]

(interestingly enough, the "Flag in Exile" incident you describe suggests that the primary damage mechanism was KINETIC ENERGY, not some technobabble Grav-wedge effect. In other words, the wedge transferred KE to the target, which apparently came from the missile itself.)

No, the damage mechanism was that the Wedge of the SAM and its gravitic strength which sliced the pinnace in half...

he small, high-tech kamikaze had lost its target when Troubridge dove for the deck, but its seekers had reacquired lock, and it came slashing in at over ten kilometers per second. Even so, the pilot had almost denied it a hit, and its impeller wedge's leading edge caught the pinnace's rearing
nose one bare meter aft of the radome.
A guillotine of gravitic energy slammed through the fuselage like an axe through butter, and the raw kinetic energy of the impact tore the first ten meters of the pinnace apart. Troubridge, his copilot, and his com tech died instantly, and the impact energy completed what the tail strike had begun.

So you're telling me gravity can act as a physical impact now in the Honorverse?

[Connor MacLeod]

More to the point, there is no such thing as "gravitic energy" - Gravity is a force. Gravity can impart energy, but it imparts kinetic energy (you know, it accelerates stuff.) And given that it already mentions kinetic energy, we can assume that by saying "gravitic energy" it means "kinetic energy."

More to the point, we already knew that the Wedge (I am actually starting to have doubts this is in fact "gravity", incidentally - how why the hell isnt an e14-e15 gee level gravitational field not having lethal side effects on anything in the close proximity?) transfers momentum so it can probably transfer some of the KE of the projectile as well (the impact is going to transfer momentum as well as energy.)

[The Dark]

For the torpedoes, a high-energy plasma could explain why the magnetic bottle is good only to extremely short ranges (shorter than regular beam weapons, IIRC). They're noted for a high rate of fire, and according to a post by Weber can be command-detonated, and would create a "wall of fire" (it was a suggested anti-missile defense, but ultimately not efficient). This suggests to me that it possibly is reactor plasma vented and contained within a relatively low-grade magnetic "envelope," permitting high rates of fire and high power at the expense of range and also sucking off remass. I don't think e-torps would be that big a deal, though, since IIRC even dreadnoughts only carry two per broadside. They'd basically be similar to the carronades of Nelsonian-era naval battle: short-ranged, high-powered cannon useful only in rare situations.

[Dahak]

(I am actually starting to have doubts this is in fact "gravity", incidentally - how why the hell isnt an e14-e15 gee level gravitational field not having lethal side effects on anything in the close proximity?)

Because it's a tame "gravity wave" in normal space, which is a hyperspace phenomenon and most likely because DW wills it to behave like it does.
His prefered cop-out: "It's a hyperspace phenomenon."

[Connor MacLeod]

(I am actually starting to have doubts this is in fact "gravity", incidentally - how why the hell isnt an e14-e15 gee level gravitational field not having lethal side effects on anything in the close proximity?)

Because it's a tame "gravity wave" in normal space, which is a hyperspace phenomenon and most likely because DW wills it to behave like it does.
His prefered cop-out: "It's a hyperspace phenomenon."

Yes I am aware of that fact. I just have doubts that they're actually generating gravitational field effects stronger than many thousands of neutron stars (neturon stars have 1e11 gee gravitational fields, IIRC.) Would it even be possible to have such absurdly powerful gravitational effects mere hundreds of km away from the generating ship (or other ships) and not have it directly affect the vessels. Being close to planets (IE the Roussseau in "A whiff of grapeshot") would present even worse potential problems.

And this is aside from the "strength" variation statements for the honorvers (10,000 gees to 200,000+ gees, despite what red-shifting photons implies) as well as the fact that apparently the outer "bands" of the Impeller wedge can be scanned by sensors (including targeting sensors, which includes lightspeed sensors.) THere's also the oddity of effects of matter "impacting" on the wedge (vaporizing rather than being torn apart? It seems to act like a physical barrier rather than a forcefield) and the FTL component.

I doubt the effects ARE purely gravity (the sidewall migth generate a sort of detectable gravitational field as a side effect, which makes it visible to gravitics even as a FTL phenomenon, but it would be fairly obvious that the "unknown, gravity-like field" has other properties all its own.)

[Connor MacLeod]

For the torpedoes, a high-energy plasma could explain why the magnetic bottle is good only to extremely short ranges (shorter than regular beam weapons, IIRC).They're noted for a high rate of fire, and according to a post by Weber can be command-detonated, and would create a "wall of fire" (it was a suggested anti-missile defense, but ultimately not efficient). This suggests to me that it possibly is reactor plasma vented and contained within a relatively low-grade magnetic "envelope," permitting high rates of fire and high power at the expense of range and also sucking off remass.

Maybe. But except for a few problems:
1.) any "envelope" field effect is going to need to be stronger the hotter the plasma gets (you can reduce the heat by making the bolt more massive, but there are obviously going to be limits to this.) and beyond a certain arbitray point, why would you not bother using the containment field as a weapon itself?

2.) invariably, the thermal energy is going to be far outstripped by the KE (esp if the projctile moves at near-c and has alot of mass behind it.). Even if you packed the "envelope" with unfused reactor mass that "reacted" when it hit the target (assuming you could get that to WORK somehow..) its energy would be far less than the KE of the detonation (and be subjected to the omnidirectional blast limitations.)

3.) KE will all more or less strike the target. The "plasma" on release will tend to expand and only some of its thermal energy will hit (Again, like a nuke) Doesn't really
help its "more destructive" nature. Indeed, the expanding nature might even reduce the overall effectiveness of the KE damage (at the very least its going to spread it over a wider area.)

I don't think e-torps would be that big a deal, though, since IIRC even dreadnoughts only carry two per broadside. They'd basically be similar to the carronades of Nelsonian-era naval battle: short-ranged, high-powered cannon useful only in rare situations.

here

the Gryphon-class superdreadnoughts, for example, mounted 54 grasers, 46 lasers, and 12 energy torpedoes, or over twice as many energy mounts as this design)

At least 6 per broadside (12 if the figures given here are "per broadside")


On the issue of size and rate of fire from here

Energy torpedo launchers are much less massive than anti-shipping energy weapons; they are much more massive than point defense laser clusters. Point defense clusters have different numbers of emitters, depending on the size of the ship which mounts them. In the Royal Manticoran Navy, for example, heavy cruisers have (on average) eight emitters per cluster. If I remember correctly (and I'm speaking from memory here) light cruisers and destroyers have six emitters and wallers have up to twelve emitters per cluster. The greater the number of emitters, the more rapid the cluster's combined rate of fire becomes, and a point defense laser, which is much lighter than an anti-shipping energy weapon, already has a very high rate of fire compared to the aforesaid anti-shipping weapon.
Now, an energy torpedo launcher also has a very high rate of fire… compared to a standard antishipping energy weapon. It does not have a particularly high rate of fire compared to a point defense laser, and is certainly far less rapid-firing than an entire cluster of them. You will get many more shots from a laser cluster, even aboard a smaller warship, then you will from an energy torpedo launcher.

1.) Etorps (and lasers/grasers) have MUCH slower ROF's than point defense laser clusters (the hexapuma's 8-laser cluster had a combined ROF of 1 per 2 seconds, or 1 shot from each laser in the cluster every 16 seconds, and an Etorp is apparently slower than BOTH!.) And a laser/graser is MUCH slower than an Etorp, apparenlty. (though it must be noted the Defiant example suggests they can fire a limited "volley" of shots between refire rates... at least several seconds worht, although 'sustained' fire seems to basically burn out the laser/graser in doing it. Of course, I coudl be over-estimating "rapid fire" on a Graser/laser.. perhaps they're mounted in "clusters" as well... Or perhaps they're sustained beam weapons by design.)

2.) LAsers and grasers for their size are MUCH more massive than E-torps, despite the fact that Etorps are apparently more desctructive. This does suggest that lasers are indeed far less efficient energy-wise than Etorps (and thus their effective damage is less..the disparity in size could be some attempt to achieve comparable damage, at least in bigger ships.) The "indivdiual" output of a laser and graser is therefore likely *much* less than an etorp due to this inefficiency.

[HRogge]

THere's also the oddity of effects of matter "impacting" on the wedge (vaporizing rather than being torn apart?

What's vaporizing ? Ripping something appart to it's single molecules... It just a question of "how fast" you are ripped appart when you hit the wedge.

[Dahak]

And this is aside from the "strength" variation statements for the honorvers (10,000 gees to 200,000+ gees, despite what red-shifting photons implies) as well as the fact that apparently the outer "bands" of the Impeller wedge can be scanned by sensors (including targeting sensors, which includes lightspeed sensors.)

They can scan it in the way that they can detect the actual strength of the outer wedge, and thus calculate away the distortion due to gravity and "see through" it. That's why they use 2 wedges and a sidewall in between (per "wedge") to make this impossible.