Manticore vs. The Tau

[Imperial Overlord]

Or, they fire ten volleys per turn, with the number of missiles in each volley depending on the strength of the battery

One missile volley every 1-2 minutes ? HH ships would laugh about a rate of fire like this, they are used to volleys every 15-25 seconds.

And respond with missiles whose effective firepower is orders of magnitude weaker than the largest Honorverse warhead observed. (even if we did assume they actually could mount those 500 megaton warheads on MDMs, which we have no reason to do.)

Connor, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Could you please clarify for me? Thank you.


On the subject of shields, Sabbat Martyr mentions attack craft using screens to penetrate void shields and it has previously been established that the Tau use gravity tech for their shields. Since torpedoes pierce shields, they must have technology capable of piercing Tau grav shields as well as void shields and Ork power fields. It is possible that theses systems will also work to penetrate gravity based sidewalls.

[Connor MacLeod]

Based on all the previous, unless something else comes up, the Tau have no way to stand up to the Mantie in capship to capship fights. And without numbers of their fleet, the only advantage I can see out right is FTL and strike craft.

Unless someone comes along with the "IMPELLER WEDGE WILL SLICE THE TAU IN HALF" excuse, then the Tau are going to be facing large (hundreds or dozens.. maybe thousands.) armed with at BEST several-hundred megaton warheads, and maybe about 2/3 to 3/4 that actually threatening the target - again at best.) If the TAu toss around gigaton-ranged warheads at each other, and assuming they aren substantially outgunend by IoM (IE the way Wars outguns say, Andromeda) then they probably will still have a chance.

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Could you please clarify for me? Thank you.

The Tau seem to have missiles capable of tens or hundreds of gigatons in yield. The largest observed warhead yet in the honorverse is in the 500-megaton range.. and there is ample reason to believe they can't mount those on missiles (drones, yes.. but drones can only pull thousands of gees accelerations.)

[qote]
On the subject of shields, Sabbat Martyr mentions attack craft using screens to penetrate void shields and it has previously been established that the Tau use gravity tech for their shields. Since torpedoes pierce shields, they must have technology capable of piercing Tau grav shields as well as void shields and Ork power fields. It is possible that theses systems will also work to penetrate gravity based sidewalls.[/quote]

Perhaps. Are these massive torpedoes shielded/armored heavily? Any idea how tough they are? I suspect that they'll probably be substantially more durable than Honorverse missiels (ignoring the wedge that is), meaning its probably going to be harder for their poitn defense to simply shoot them down. Especially if the engagement range is alot closer.

[Ford Prefect]

On 40k torpedoes, I do have something on their toughness:

[quote="Baptism of Fire"]Launched in close spread, all six found their target, hitting the Contagion amidships on its underside, the combined explosion all but wrenching the renegade cruiser in half. One unexploded warhead continued on and up through a dozen levels, detonating several seconds later inside the Contagion's field generators. [/quote

Granted, these were Imperial torpedoes, but is it to much of a stretch to assume the Tau has similiarily tough torps? Please note that these are thirty metre long.

[Connor MacLeod]

Edit: I see what youo mean Overlord.. I need to correct myself

And respond with missiles whose effective firepower is orders of magnitude weaker than the largest Honorverse warhead observed. (even if we did assume they actually could mount those 500 megaton warheads on MDMs, which we have no reason to do.)

Err, that should read something more like this:

"And respond with missiles whose effective firepower is orders of magnitude weaker than the tau, even going by the largest observed Honorverse warhead - the 500 megaton one from AAC.)

[HRogge]

Really? It would probably be considerably more massive than an Honorverse missile (hence the slow refire rates and small volleys) Are they shielded/armored perchance?

And it would be interesting to know their acceleration/range.
If they are large as a "Saturn 5", the main batteries of a HH ship might be able to target them well enough.

"And respond with missiles whose effective firepower is orders of magnitude weaker than the tau, even going by the largest observed Honorverse warhead - the 500 megaton one from AAC.)

And the largest warhead mounted in a missile was only 200 megatons.

[Imperial Overlord]

Thanks for clarifying Connor.

Standard missles are 60 meters long and are designed to smash into the hulls of warships and then detonate. Considering that IoM capital ships can explosions rated at hundreds of gigatons inside their hulls, I would say that the missles are pretty tough. As for Tau missles, I don't know their propulsion system off hand. The IoM ones use a reaction drive powered by the plasma reactor which is also the warhead.

[Black Admiral]

Interesting. Is that unique to the Tau, or do other factions (like the Imperium or the Eldar) have something similar. If so then that might have been an advantage against the Empire (since there is some debate as to whether they can stop weaponry like that )

The Tau IIRC don't have anything similar - they don't even have teleporters unless I'm mistaken - however the Imperium (or Adeptus Mechanicus units at the least) does have access to them, and the Eldar may do.

As for Imperium torpedo sizes, they start at thirty meters long, and progress up to hundred-meter long heavies (used by the Macharius in Execution Hour; it took eleven hits from that type of torpedo to disable the cruiser-carrier Lord Seth).

[Connor MacLeod]

And it would be interesting to know their acceleration/range.
If they are large as a "Saturn 5", the main batteries of a HH ship might be able to target them well enough.

Assuming they can trrack it for long enough probably. Damaging it however is another story.

And the largest warhead mounted in a missile was only 200 megatons.

250 actually, even if that was a ground attack warhead. There were also the 100-megaton "mines" used around Camp Charon that were considered "high-megaton." The solly sneak-attack missile is a so-so example - its easier to believe than what was described in AAC, but its still generous.

[Connor MacLeod]

Thanks for clarifying Connor.

Standard missles are 60 meters long and are designed to smash into the hulls of warships and then detonate. Considering that IoM capital ships can explosions rated at hundreds of gigatons inside their hulls, I would say that the missles are pretty tough. As for Tau missles, I don't know their propulsion system off hand. The IoM ones use a reaction drive powered by the plasma reactor which is also the warhead.

An Honorverse Sultan-class can be totally obliterated by the proximity detonation of at least 10 but fewer than a "few dozen" megaton-range nukes (battlecruiser-scale.) - and thats not even with direct hits!

Note that thats an upper limit of around 4,500 gigatons (assuming 250 megaton warheads and that an overly generous 50% of the energy struck the opposing ship, I suspect that that figure could easily be 1/3 to 1/4th that, , not even accounting for inverse-square.) And true, that IS a battlecruiser, but I doubt a superdreadnought is 100x more powerful (maybe an OOM.) - given that a single energy torpedo broadside from an 80-year old light cruiser's powerplant was considered capable of obliterating a Superdreadnought.

[HRogge]

An Honorverse Sultan-class can be totally obliterated by the proximity detonation of at least 10 but fewer than a "few dozen" megaton-range nukes (battlecruiser-scale.) - and thats not even with direct hits!

HHverse armor is not very good ( compared to other scifi-universes or their own shields ).

Note that thats an upper limit of around 4,500 gigatons (assuming 250 megaton warheads and that an overly generous 50% of the energy struck the opposing ship, I suspect that that figure could easily be 1/3 to 1/4th that, , not even accounting for inverse-square.) And true, that IS a battlecruiser, but I doubt a superdreadnought is 100x more powerful (maybe an OOM.) - given that a single energy torpedo broadside from an 80-year old light cruiser's powerplant was considered capable of obliterating a Superdreadnought.

Energy torpedos are described as more damaging than grazers, so they should be at least single digit gigaton weapons... maybe even more.

Energy torpedos might be a good weapon to deal with the Tau, they are light and powerful ( but absolutely useless against HHverse sidewalls ).

[Imperial Overlord]

Energy torpedoes are plasma weapons IIRC, which IoM ships use a fair number of in their weapon batteries. Of course that means a broadside battle against the Tau who live in a universe where soaking up gigaton rated plasma fire with your armour and shields is de rigeour for combat.

[Ford Prefect]

Energy torpedoes are plasma weapons IIRC, which IoM ships use a fair number of in their weapon batteries. Of course that means a broadside battle against the Tau who live in a universe where soaking up gigaton rated plasma fire with your armour and shields is de rigeour for combat.

Just another day in the 41st millenium, eh?

[Akaramu Shinja]

I didn't realise there was such a disparity in the firepower with Mantie vs Tau. That helps their lack of numbers and "missile swarming". What is the considered value of a point of BFG damage? Might make their Super-Heavy Railguns and Ion cannons useful too.

[NecronLord]

What is the considered value of a point of BFG damage?

560-610 gigatons.

[HRogge]

560-610 gigatons.

HH energy weapons might do damage like this over the time of one BFG turn... especially with energy torps.

[NecronLord]

560-610 gigatons.

HH energy weapons might do damage like this over the time of one BFG turn... especially with energy torps.

Note that some weapons deliver this kind of firepower instantaneously. Torpedos, nova weapons, etc.

[HRogge]

Note that some weapons deliver this kind of firepower instantaneously. Torpedos, nova weapons, etc.

Yes, but WH40K shields were described as "recharging"... so a shield with 1 point of capacity can regenerate this point within a turn... and it should be possible to overload it by applying more energy per turn.

[NecronLord]

Yes, but WH40K shields were described as "recharging"... so a shield with 1 point of capacity can regenerate this point within a turn... and it should be possible to overload it by applying more energy per turn.

40K shields are often many points for capships, furthermore, the defence of 40K ships is their tough construction, their shields are usually only a first line of defence.

[HRogge]

40K shields are often many points for capships, furthermore, the defence of 40K ships is their tough construction, their shields are usually only a first line of defence.

I know, I know... but without a plan to break the shields everything else is useless...

[Falkenhayn]

You are aware, I assume, that almost all missile weapons qualify as weapons batteries in BFG, yes? A torpedo is something special, it is a missile the size of a Saturn 5 rocket loaded with gigaton fusion bombs....

Really? It would probably be considerably more massive than an Honorverse missile (hence the slow refire rates and small volleys) Are they shielded/armored perchance?

In the Shadow Point/Execution Hour duology, there are numerous references to torpedos being heavily armored. Up to the point where a Chaos fighter smashes into the nose cone of one and is destroyed without altering the torpedo's course or damaging it.

[Black Admiral]

In the Shadow Point/Execution Hour duology, there are numerous references to torpedos being heavily armored. Up to the point where a Chaos fighter smashes into the nose cone of one and is destroyed without altering the torpedo's course or damaging it.

That's on the order of 2-300 tons IIRC, assuming that the Swiftdeath's the same tonnage as a Fury.

[Connor MacLeod]

HHverse armor is not very good ( compared to other scifi-universes or their own shields ).

That wasn't just armor. It was also the radiation/particle shielding as well (the only thing that had gone down on Malik was the sidewall and impellers, last I checked.)

Energy torpedos are described as more damaging than grazers, so they should be at least single digit gigaton weapons... maybe even more.

You're kidding.. right? You're seriously claiming that a light cruiser can power fourteen energy torpedoes? And therefore must be capable of delivering at LEAST 14 gigatons of firepower? What actual proof are you basing this off of, since going by the recoil, 1 gigaton is perhaps the BEST you could expect from energy torpedoes (at least the ones mounted in Fearless.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Really? It would probably be considerably more massive than an Honorverse missile (hence the slow refire rates and small volleys) Are they shielded/armored perchance?

In the Shadow Point/Execution Hour duology, there are numerous references to torpedos being heavily armored. Up to the point where a Chaos fighter smashes into the nose cone of one and is destroyed without altering the torpedo's course or damaging it.[/quote]

At what speed is teh impact occuring?

[Black Admiral]

At what speed is teh impact occuring?

Several tens of kilometers a second, possibly higher relative velocity.