Manticore vs. The Tau

[The Dark]

And I'm sure someone is going to mention laser heads, but they are still subject to the same problem: its grossly generous to assume all the energy is directed at the target (On Basilisk STation makes it evident that a substantial portion of the nuclear detonation does not actually hit the lasing rods.)

Could I have a quote for that, please, since I don't want to go digging through hundreds of pages of text?

And lastly, the radiation striking the rods is going to produce a laser out of both ends of the rod without some sort of mirror (and there is no evidence they have an x-ray mirror, if such a thing exists.) although depending on where the nuke is placed relative to the laser heads most of the laser power might be directed at the target.

Current (real life) x-ray lasers only lase out one end, based on drawings from Livermore, so I don't see why Honorverse ones would suddenly lase in both directions.

(And this is further disregarding the fact that most laser heads tend to go for a "shotgun" effect - it is VERY generous to assume all the generated lasers will hit the same target.)

They shotgun if firing into a fleet. Since each laser head is independently targetable, if there's only one target they'll all aim at it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Could I have a quote for that, please, since I don't want to go digging through hundreds of pages of text?

The Manticoran Navy's electronic missile penetration-aids were at least as much better than estimated as their defensive ECM was. He knew that, and it made him feel absolutely no better about his damage and casualties. He jerked around toward Jamal with fiery eyes and opened his mouth—then froze as one of the tactical officer's warheads detonated less than a thousand kilometers from Fearless's prow.
...
The universe went mad. Stilettos of X-ray radiation stabbed deep into Fearless's lightly-armored hull, breaching compartments, killing her people, clawing and rending at her bulkheads and frame members. And then, a sliver of a second later, the light cruiser smashed into the blast front of the warhead itself.

It was below her as she drove forward, not the direct frontal collision from which nothing could have saved her, but a savage eruption of plasma spumed up beneath her belly through the vacuum of space. Generators howled in protest as the massive shock front of radiation and particles smashed at her shielding like a flail, but they held—barely—and Fearless heaved like a goaded horse as she shot the rapids of destruction.

Note that given the design of a nuke-pumped X-ray laser head (both by rela life bomb pumped laser designs as well as the schematics in Ashes of Victory, IIRC) it is abundantly clear that there are "gaps" through which radiation would leak through and be wasted (from the front at the absolute minimum, if not the back as well. Only the radiation striking the lasing rods would probably be "useable".)

And of course there are the non x-ray portions of the detonation (as relatively minor as they might be.)

Current (real life) x-ray lasers only lase out one end, based on drawings from Livermore, so I don't see why Honorverse ones would suddenly lase in both directions.

Source? Googling doesn't reveal a great deal of data on x-ray laser mirrors (and the applications that do seem to suggest highly specialized usages that may not be consistent with a bomb-pumped x-ray weapon.)

Besides, even if it DOES work, it doesn't alter the upper limit on efficiency the other factors already establish (the percentage of the detonation usable, the amount absorbed by the lasing rods, etc.) Odds are, at best you're probably looking at 60-70% of the warhead's total energy being diverted into the lasing rods, tops. (The rest being lost in the blast wave and in destroying the laser head and missile itself.)

They shotgun if firing into a fleet. Since each laser head is independently targetable, if there's only one target they'll all aim at it.

Are you referring to this?

The terminal bus of a laser head mounts sophisticated targeting systems and powerful attitude thrusters to enable it to align itself so as to direct the greatest number of bomb-pumped laser beams at the target, but it is also designed to have a "porcupine" effect, radiating lasers in all directions. Each laser inflicts less damage than a direct hit could have, but the chances of a hit—even multiple hits—from a single missile are greatly increased.

The laser heads "spread" out the shots to increase the chances of hitting a target (which makse sense since they have trouble getting a precise fix on the target's location "in" the Wedge.) But this also results in the fact that they tend to achieve fewer overall hits compared to the number of "lasers" generated (which is actually consistent with the novels.) The only way they can maximize the number of hits is to get closer so that the beams have a shorter distance to travel before spreading significantly. Any ability they have to control the aim of individual lasers is going to be limited by the fixed nature of the rods (they can probably shift the angle some, but not alot.)

And as a note, if they could somehow "redirect" the individual lasers to concentrate most or all of the energy on a single target, building such a capability into the missile (its possible they COULD do it, I believe RL ones could) would take up volume that could otherwise be dedicated to the warhead, thus meaning that a laser head is giong to carry a much smaller "warhead" relative to a standard nuke (which is goign to be tru anyways because of the lasing rods at least, if not the other components like targeting gear and whatnot.) So this is another factor that suggests a direct 'nuke to laser head' comparison is at best generous.

[Connor MacLeod]

40K warp drive can't be used for tactical microjumps. As I said, I know little about the Tau fleet, other than it is competitive with the rest of the 40K universe and has smart torpedoes.

Well, what I mean by "tactical" FTL is that they have enough speed/precision to jump in fairly close to a given target (such as the Honorverse ships.) Like say a SW ship jumping to within 10,000-30,000 km of a planet during hyperdrive travel. Could a Tau ship emerge from hyperspace thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers away from a "target point?" Even if it had to hyper away a significant distancec and then come back? (its more a matter of precision rather than distance, really.)

Because without that ability they're going to have a lot harder time getting warheads in close. If they don't have the ability to "penetrate" the sidewall (dobutful) they have to direct the missiles in from the front or back. But the problem is point defense - unless these missiles are shielded or alot more durable than honorverse missiles (or can be made so) its quite likely they'll be shot down once detected if they launch them from any significant distance away (and point defense is heavier on the front and back than it is on the sides.)

It IS worth noting though that the refire rate on poitn defense clusers (at least for the Hexapuma that is) is rather long - 1 shot per 16 seconds IIRC. But point defense is generally in clusers.. from 6 lasers per cluster for a destroyer up to 12 for a Ship of the Wall. Heavy cruisers have like.. 8, so the effecitve ROF of a laser cluster is like 1 shot every 2 seconds.)

The best way to minimize the threat of interception is by getting close enough to the target to give the missiels a flight time of around half a minute or less and launching salvos (Honorverse ships have demonstrated difficulties at intercepting missiles if they have less than half a minute to a minute to act in.)

I don't doubt the Tau have a substantial firepower edge here (40K's firepower is a lot lower than SW, but not SUBSTANTIALLY so, which means that its quite likely to be alot higher than what the honorverse has.) GT range warheads will be very damaging even to fairly large warships (BC and below), and kinetic strikes should have no trouble overcoming the particle shielding... assuming, of course, they can get past the sidewalls. Other than that, they have to pray that very-high momentum attacks will do the trick, unless they can produce lasers from somewhere.

Maybe if they can get within a light second and get an up the throat/down the kilt shot, they can lob railgun rounds armed with warheads at the ship (if they move as fast as say, an energy torpedo, their point defense won't be able to intercept them.)

[Connor MacLeod]

So probably roughly equal to the Honorverse.

Depending on the calcs you use. Parity is probably the best-case scenario for the Honorverse, because its quite probable that WH40K has a firepower edge (based on prior discussions involving 40K and SW. 40K isn't THAT far down the chain in terms of firepower.)

Given the combination of the Eridani Edict's attempt to restrict warfare near planets and the ability of dreadnoughts to shatter moons, it's probably that a non-specialized fleet could render a planet pretty much uninhabitable.

Uh, wasn't the Eridani edict directed at bombardment of planets in general, not just extinction level bombardments? In other words, it covers glassing a planet, but its not limited to just glassing the planet.

And as fro the "shattering a moon", we've covered that before.

I believe it was a dreadnought's broadside that worked out to gigaton range, so individual grasers are lower powered. At a guess, based on a battlecruiser's weapons layout and scaling to the larger dreadnought, an individual capital graser would be somewhere around 40-50 megatons.

Again, depending on calcs, but 40-50 megatons for a capital laser/graser
sounds about right. (given the breakdown of a pre-pod SD's energy armament, its rather likely grasers aren't substantially more powerful, as well as the difference between the gamma-ray and x-ray bands. IIRC gamma rays are more energetic than x-rays, but not by a very large margin) though I base my own scaling on the fact that energy weapons have around 15-20 times the effective penetration range of a laser head, and a single laser from a laser head is perhaps a few megatons at best.)

[Xon]

Because without that ability they're going to have a lot harder time getting warheads in close. If they don't have the ability to "penetrate" the sidewall (dobutful) they have to direct the missiles in from the front or back. But the problem is point defense - unless these missiles are shielded or alot more durable than honorverse missiles (or can be made so) its quite likely they'll be shot down once detected if they launch them from any significant distance away (and point defense is heavier on the front and back than it is on the sides.)

A significant percentage of a Honorverse's anti-missile point defense comes from the counter-missile missiles which use thier wedge to ram incoming targets.

And I think it is a given that not much will survive physical contact with a wedge in this debate.

[Connor MacLeod]

A significant percentage of a Honorverse's anti-missile point defense comes from the counter-missile missiles which use thier wedge to ram incoming targets.

And I think it is a given that not much will survive physical contact with a wedge in this debate.

Which is why i suggested launching from closer up. Given OBS and THoTQ, Countermissiles have problems with intercepting targets alot closer to the ship than from alot farther away.

[Imperial Overlord]

I know what you meant. Warp Drive is only usable as tactical FTL if you are extremely lucky, which in practice means no. Necrons have some tricks, but they use a different kind of FTL.

I'm not very familiar with the Tau, but they very well might have devices to assist in penetrating void shields, which may mean nothing against sidewalls. 40K ordinance tends to be about 60meters long and very tough, but I doubt it will survive HH point defence. If Tau are using rail guns and ion cannons as their weapon batteries, then I don't think they'll get anywhere against the sidewalls with them.

[Black Admiral]

AFAIK Tau ships aren't capable of tactical FTL jumps. Some more advanced Imperium ships might be able to (such as Inquisitor Thaddeus's ship in THe Bleeding Chalice).

Of course, there's also a trick that (maybe) a higher tech Imperium ship could use; psycho-portive weaponry (possibly something similar to Titan-launched warp missiles; it has a quantum signature similar to that of a teleporter (Soul Drinker)).

[Imperial Overlord]

I should clarify, when I said assist in penetrating void shields I was refering to big missles and attack craft, not their guns.

[Connor MacLeod]

I know what you meant. Warp Drive is only usable as tactical FTL if you are extremely lucky, which in practice means no. Necrons have some tricks, but they use a different kind of FTL.

So its basically like Andromedaverse FTL then, at least for its tactical precision and usefulness.

I'm not very familiar with the Tau, but they very well might have devices to assist in penetrating void shields, which may mean nothing against sidewalls.

only if void shields are very strong gravitational fields comparable to a sidewall (which is going to depend on whether you go by the "red shifting" definition of their strength, or by the Weber "shouldn't work the way he says it does" version.)

40K ordinance tends to be about 60meters long and very tough, but I doubt it will survive HH point defence. If Tau are using rail guns and ion cannons as their weapon batteries, then I don't think they'll get anywhere against the sidewalls with them.

Then their only other option is to basically close at sublight speeds. As I said, Honorverse ships tend to be rather sluggish, so this may not be totally implausible (although they're going to be taking a beating going in, they probably can take it, unless we resort to the "Impeller wedge will destroy anything!" tactic, which I would prefer avoiding in this debate.)

If they can get close enough and get exposure for a front/rear shot, they can probably try using their ion cannons and/or railguns, which probably will be more than sufficient to penetrate the throat/kilt defenses, point defense or no.)

What is Tau acceleration rates? And do they have any FTL sensor capability?

[Connor MacLeod]

I should clarify, when I said assist in penetrating void shields I was refering to big missles and attack craft, not their guns.

If it came down to it, I'd almost prefer dumb-firing large GT-range warheads (preferrably volleys) up the throat or down the kilt at relatavistic speeds. That would more than likely damage or destroy (esp in enough numbers) any Honorverse ship.

[Connor MacLeod]

Of course, there's also a trick that (maybe) a higher tech Imperium ship could use; psycho-portive weaponry (possibly something similar to Titan-launched warp missiles; it has a quantum signature similar to that of a teleporter (Soul Drinker)).

You mean like transporting a bomb onto the target? or are you talking a missile with FTL capability (or something like a culture-verse displacer, or centerpiont station's "hyperspace wormholes?)

[Imperial Overlord]

Most FTL sensor technology in 40K is psyker based and they are a blunt race (although they have psychic client races). The answer is probably no.

40K can be pretty fast in real space. In Sabbat Martyr they accelerate to a substantial portion of lightspeed (my copy is packed away, but Black Admiral can probably supply quotes) fairly quickly.

Shield technology is left deliberately vague and their are several variations. Void Shields seem to operate similarily to Langston Fields from Pournelle's work, but barrier versions also have kept out even slow moving objects and sliced through people when activated. On the other hand, Titan void shields have permitted large slow moving objects to penetrate them.

[Black Admiral]

Of course, there's also a trick that (maybe) a higher tech Imperium ship could use; psycho-portive weaponry (possibly something similar to Titan-launched warp missiles; it has a quantum signature similar to that of a teleporter (Soul Drinker)).

You mean like transporting a bomb onto the target? or are you talking a missile with FTL capability (or something like a culture-verse displacer, or centerpiont station's "hyperspace wormholes?)

It might be either of the two; Soul Drinker doesn't discuss it in much detail, just mentioning it as a possibility for the readings being detected from an Ad-Mech ship.

[18-Till-I-Die]

You know, and forgive me if this sounds stupid, but couldnt the Tau just start using lasers? Massless weapons are what is needed right, like a laser?

The IoM have lasers and the Tau are somewhat more advanced, or a lot more depending on how you see it. So they should eb able to build them.

If they get a chance to figure out that lasers are needed, then i dont see why they wouldnt start designing one or just take an existing laser weapon (most likely one exists, considering their technological level in comparison to the IoM) and use it.

Now how long would it take to make a dent on the front lines...that is far more of a difficult question.

[Falkenhayn]

Not saying much. An Emperor, though durable, is designed as a fleet carrier, and so must be weaker structurally, due to the amount of extra space required for hangars, maintenance, magazines etc that can't be devoted to defensive systems. If the Emissary were to go punch for punch with a Retribution or a Vox Veritas class, that would be a better indicator of its potential.

If by this you mean that Emperor was using its strike craft as its main weapon during the egagement, then that speaks well of Tau PDB networks. However if they were slugging it out broadside to broadside then my previous statement stands.

The engagement in Fire Warrior was broadside to broadside, and the Emissary lost, badly. Only got off about 5-10 seconds' fire before the Emperor's secondary armaments (possibly the pulse lasers mentioned in Sabbat Martyr) disabled its' guns.

BTW, for battleship-carriers, the Omnia Vincit-type CVBs are always fun.

Thanks BA.

Do you know the limit to the number of attack craft the IoM carrier classes can carry?

[Black Admiral]

Thanks BA.

Do you know the limit to the number of attack craft the IoM carrier classes can carry?

Not as such, but an absolute lower limit is thirty fightercraft (the number of ships that the Light Intruder Frigate Berengaria was confirmed to have lost in Sabbat Martyr).

[Dahak]

Uh, wasn't the Eridani edict directed at bombardment of planets in general, not just extinction level bombardments? In other words, it covers glassing a planet, but its not limited to just glassing the planet.

The Eridani Edict forbids indiscriminate bombardment of a planet.
When you hold high orbit, and the planet still refuses to surrender, you can bombard military installations or the like. But not just bomb away...

[Imperial Overlord]

You know, and forgive me if this sounds stupid, but couldnt the Tau just start using lasers? Massless weapons are what is needed right, like a laser?

The IoM have lasers and the Tau are somewhat more advanced, or a lot more depending on how you see it. So they should eb able to build them.
.

Yes, cranking out high powered lasers is something th Tau are quite capable of. Of course, they will have get aroundto making and deploying them.

[Akaramu Shinja]

Few things of note about the Tau that haven't been brought up.

Tau missiles are drone controlled (sophisticated AI they use in battle for various things) rather than just "seeking". They're small and fired in salvos (fluff/game terms 1 point of torpedo strength is 10 drone missiles). This gives the Hero class for instance 60 missile salvos.

Tau missiles are launched from Gravitic Launchers:

Gravitic launchers are massive railguns where
mass drivers trigger the initial acceleration
before the ships gravitic field is pulsed to
squeeze the missiles toward the enemy at
enormous speed. The missiles are dronecontrolled
and exceptionally dangerous. See the
ordnance section for more details.

All Tau drives are gravity based, no propulsion. They use their gravity control to produce their shields and even some ships have a "deflector" in front they project (giving them 6+ frontal armor in game terms).

Their common use of railgun batteries involves combining firezones with squadrons as each individual railgun isn't excessively strong (Firing one at a time according to the fluff, a railgun "battery" is one railgun of strength 6). Apparently their advanced targetting allows them to link up well for this (no effect game terms, but fluff enough). They also employ similar tactics for point defense, combining nearby PD to defend one ship for instance.

Nature of Ion Cannons, make of it what you will:

Ion Cannons
Ion cannon shots vaporise the object struck
magnifying the energy discharge. Armour is of
no value against them. They function as lances in
all respects.

Additionally they do in fact use carrier like operations. A Hero class alone can carry a minimum of 2 Manta Missile Destroyers and Barracuda Squadrons. The Manta Missile Destroyer is the Tau Equivilent of a Titan with shields. In naval combat they deploy them as bombers (they ride the line between escort and large strike craft). With their own defenses and shields they are able to stand up to enemy fighters and carry onto their targets, so they're not just cannon fodder without help. The Explorer class ships can carry a minimum of 8 Mantas in primary configuration.

Lastly their use of warp:

The Water caste
scientists made the observation that the
boundary between real space and warp space
was not a neat line. It was closer to being a
turbulent ocean fomented by the tempestuous
warp tides below. By carefully angling their
descent toward the Warp and extending the
field generated by the gravitic drive into a wing,
shaped to hold the vessel down a Tau vessel
could extend the duration of the dive
considerably. The speeds achieved in the ascent
back to real space were staggering and this
coupled with the effect of the Warp on time and
space ensured that the real distance covered by
the dive was immense.

It also goes on to indicate the Tau use of the warp is slower than the IoM by a factor of five.

[HRogge]

Few things of note about the Tau that haven't been brought up.

Tau missiles are drone controlled (sophisticated AI they use in battle for various things) rather than just "seeking". They're small and fired in salvos (fluff/game terms 1 point of torpedo strength is 10 drone missiles). This gives the Hero class for instance 60 missile salvos.

HH missiles use onboard AI ( expert systems ) too.

Tau missiles are launched from Gravitic Launchers:

Same for HH missiles.

All Tau drives are gravity based, no propulsion. They use their gravity control to produce their shields and even some ships have a "deflector" in front they project (giving them 6+ frontal armor in game terms).

Hmm... HH ships have gravity based drives too... and they can detect them instantly ( FTL ) on lightminutes distances...

and they have an FTL recon drone ( sublight drone with a slow FTL communication line back to the ship ).

[Nephtys]

Huh. All Tau drives are gravity-based? That makes the field more comparable now. HH Sensors are tuned to best detect artificial gravity readings, such as a wedge or gravimetric propulsion. The Tau missiles sound the same, using gravitic launchers and AI guidance, but they also probably are a lot bigger, and fewer in number. Larger warhead, but easier PD target. Hrm.

And if they have very large bombers/small escorts, well well! There's a CLAC for you. With it's own sidewalls and bow/sternwall, and a Battlecruiser graser.

[Akaramu Shinja]

And if they have very large bombers/small escorts, well well! There's a CLAC for you. With it's own sidewalls and bow/sternwall, and a Battlecruiser graser.

Except Manticore doesn't have these according to the OP.

[HRogge]

At the time of this OP Manticore only has normal LACs, no Shrikes/Ferrets.

No ships with bow/sternwall, no ghostrider missiles, no pod-superdreadnoughts... but it will only take a few years to finish the Ghostrider project...

[SirNitram]

Lastly their use of warp:

The Water caste
scientists made the observation that the
boundary between real space and warp space
was not a neat line. It was closer to being a
turbulent ocean fomented by the tempestuous
warp tides below. By carefully angling their
descent toward the Warp and extending the
field generated by the gravitic drive into a wing,
shaped to hold the vessel down a Tau vessel
could extend the duration of the dive
considerably. The speeds achieved in the ascent
back to real space were staggering and this
coupled with the effect of the Warp on time and
space ensured that the real distance covered by
the dive was immense.

It also goes on to indicate the Tau use of the warp is slower than the IoM by a factor of five.

That seems to imply they never enter the Warp, merely using the boundary zone as a sort of extreme acceleration zone. While slower than IoM, it almost sounds like they fly without the wierdness and lack of precision of an Imperium warp jump.