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 Post subject: ROTS, specifics: Palpatine could beat Mace Windu (easely)? PostPosted: 2005-06-16 07:38am
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Hi There

My sincere thanks for this forum and this website.

The ROTS-topic is too large by now with 22-24 pages of info. It is dificult to keep an overview of the contens. I hope people appreciate more specific threads like this, which only deals with Palpatine vs. Mace.
I am actually not sure if this has not been dealt with somewhere else, if that is the case correct me and I will accept this fully.

I humbly suggest that others make similar headings like "ROTS, specifics: <Titel of the specific subject>". In this way, all can zoom in on the particular subject of interest.



Now for the post.

I believe Palp could beat Mace (but not necesarily Yoda).

Reason:
One of Palps primary objectives was to secure Anakin as apprentice. Partly he tried to do this by taking Padme as "hostage" ("only I can teach you to save her...").

While Anakin had skimmed the dark side for quite some time, Palp knew that he needed to be "pushed" to take the final step.He thus told him to come and "help" him from the Jedi (to save Padme). Once the Jedis showed up Palp had no reason to leave all three alive and quickly finished off two of them. These two, I believe, were not prime swordsmen like Mace, Anakin, Yoda or Obiwan. Rather, they were probably the two Jedis "closest at hand" and Mace was in a hurry. Maybe they were not that skilled, maybe their skills were in other areas.
Still, Palp needed someone whom Anakin could rescue him from. In the final struggle he feigns weakness in front of Mace for some time in order to let the dark side "burst" inside of Anakin. When finally Palp "gave up" he knew Anakin would intercept the blow. It is seen that Palp was not that weak after all: just few seconds after Maces arm came off he blasts him 100 meters or so out of the window. And he is fresh and well prepared to talk without loss of breath or similar. He walks steadily and can focus on the matter at hand right away.

So, Palp could have taken Mace out. But he delayed in order to use Mace to lure Anakin to the dark side. He might have taken a calculated risk but the price of having darth Vader on his side was worth it.

As for Yoda, Palp had no reason to keep him alive at all. He propably did his very best but that obviously wasn't enough. Still, Yoda chose to flee, so Palp had to be a decent match after all.





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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 08:45am
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This is a topic that was discussed in-depth on numerous occassions when the movie just hit the screens (it's not a dig at you, just stating the fact).

There's folks (Palpatine-wankers :evil: ) who are of the same opinion as you, but some also believe that Mace Windu is simply a superior swordsman, although not an opponent as a whole.



The following ideas are solely my opinion.

Even if Mace was on par, or even slightly below Yoda's level of short-term combat precognition, his obvious advantages (such as reach, and Vaapad) might put him above both Yoda and Palpatine in terms of skill with a lightsaber. Recall that Tyranus, in his encounter with Yoda, referred to the distinction between a contest being resolved through their knowledge of the Force, and through their skill with a lightsaber?
Mace would get owned if the separation and focus to use the Force phase occurred, but I believe he's unparalleled with the saber.

Note that although Darth Sidious lost to Mace as a combatant, he did defeat Mace soundly through the use of his manipulative abilities (Anakin) and his Force power (Sith Lightning). So in the end, the descriptive result is that Sidious > Mace.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 09:52am
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Recall that Tyranus, in his encounter with Yoda, referred to the distinction between a contest being resolved through their knowledge of the Force, and through their skill with a lightsaber?


That was because he and Yoda were at a stalemate when they fought with the Force. Notice Dooku lost that one. And Sidious is a better overall combatent than Windu. I think it is pretty obvious that he was fine since he blasted Mace, ordered the extermination of the Jedi order, and then fought Yoda later on that night.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 09:56am
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Palpatine used the force to enhance his skill's (speed, suprise) but Mace did win that fight due to experience and technique, however he couldnt have lasted against Palpatines power's without his lightsaber like Yoda did,



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 12:22pm
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Lets see, Palpatine kills three of the Jedi-orders best swordsmen (according to the ROTS:VD) in seconds, forces Mace from his control-room into his main office, fights him sucessfully for a time and just when Anakin is on his way he suddenly is forced back, gets trapped in a corner and his lightsaber kicked out of his hand.

Instead of going full-blast with lightning or pulling out his second lightsabre he drops to the floor and starts to beg for his live once Anakin enters the room.

Yeah, i think Palpatine set up his defeat. Even the one with the sabre.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 12:47pm
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FTeik wrote:
Lets see, Palpatine kills three of the Jedi-orders best swordsmen (according to the ROTS:VD) in seconds, forces Mace from his control-room into his main office, fights him sucessfully for a time and just when Anakin is on his way he suddenly is forced back, gets trapped in a corner and his lightsaber kicked out of his hand.

Instead of going full-blast with lightning or pulling out his second lightsabre he drops to the floor and starts to beg for his live once Anakin enters the room.

Yeah, i think Palpatine set up his defeat. Even the one with the sabre.


First according to Lucas level canon, Jedi/Sith are ranked from 1-10 with Yoda, Mace & Palpatine being 9, Obi Wan being 7-8 and Anakin as of the duel 8, the rest of the Jedi are of a lower level with the difference between each level being of an increasing order of magnitude, especially in the top tier.

The other Jedi master's were at least 2 level's (7 or under, Obi Wan was the fourth strongest jedi) under Mace who was weaker than Palpatine in the force but a better duelist.
Quite simply the other Jedi were of a order of magnitude weaker than Palpy or Mace's level.

Also what second lightsaber, & Palpy was going at nearly full power with the lightning, Mace was blocking it with his saber, no saber, no Windu.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 01:27pm
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I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless. Because that interpretation is frankly absurd on its face, and the novelization says nothing about any such deliberate self-endangerment. So all you have is "well, I think he's more powerful so he can't lose", which is bullshit. Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan and still lost.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 01:51pm
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Darth Wong wrote:
I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless. Because that interpretation is frankly absurd on its face, and the novelization says nothing about any such deliberate self-endangerment. So all you have is "well, I think he's more powerful so he can't lose", which is bullshit. Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan and still lost.

Like Wong said, there is a difference between force power (speed, force attack's) and Lighsaber proficiency.

Mace is on Palpatine's level but the other Jedi masters arent on the same scale.

As has been stated in force powers Palpatine has more raw power than Mace but Mace is a better fighter than him (like in Obi-Wan's case) which allowed him to stand his own against Palpatines Lightning.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 03:21pm
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Yes, thank you Mr. Wong. :)
I was sort of trying to make the same point, but perhaps my writing skills are inadequate to carry my intentions across to most.


I've believe that the reason why some folks hang on to the bizarre Palpatine wankerage delusions is because they feel that the stronger and less vulnerable the villain is, the greater the strength of the plot.

I disagree. That may be the case in a simpler story, but not here.
The fact is that Mace Windu could have ended the Sith threat right there and then, with a single stroke of his lightsaber... but Anakin stopped him. If it wasn't for this fact, some might say that Darth Sidious could have accomplished the Sith Order's goals even without Anakin Skywalker on his side. It wasn't so. The focus of the Star Wars saga, Anakin Skywalker, is a pivotal part of the fate of the galaxy.



"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

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"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 03:43pm
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Darth Wong wrote:
I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless. Because that interpretation is frankly absurd on its face, and the novelization says nothing about any such deliberate self-endangerment. So all you have is "well, I think he's more powerful so he can't lose", which is bullshit. Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan and still lost.


Explicit evidence pro and con is probably not to be found at any rate.
Considder this thought:
- Palp knows Mace et al. is coming (surveilance or similar. No one walks into the chancelor without him knowing).
- Palp knows why (having just told Anakin he's Sith)
- Palp knows the almost exact strengths/weaknesses of his enemies (if not, he would not have survived this long)

- No one smart lets a superior force with ligthsabers into your chamber just like that. If Pal wasn't 98% certain of succes he would have been found in a larger room instead with a platoon of troopers to even the odds.

- Mace does not really hinder Palps quick dismissal of the two Jedis, even though he was close and prescient and all.

- The loss of his saber might have been an accident, those cannot be planned for, OR it might have been a deliberate loss knowing that he at least could shield himself from Mace (with lighting) until Anakin broke down. It seems to me that Anakin would be easier to seduce if he helped an unarmed man instead of a fiercely fighting sithlord.

- Being a manipulative man with a seemingly profound knowledge of both the dark side AND human psycology, I say he knew almost exactly what it would take to convert Anakin completely. And that was what he did.


In conclusion, Palpatine set the stage and played the pawns. He achieved what he wanted without ever exposing himself to significant danger.

sincerely,
a Palpatine wanker

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 03:56pm
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I agree with corsair. And in the Novelization, it mentions that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber in his robes just in case. So the loss of the lightsaber wouldn't have hindered him. He begged and pleaded for his life to convince Anakin. It would have been harder to get Anakin to aid him if Palpatine was fighting Mace Windu and at least holding his own.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 03:59pm
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Darth Wong wrote:
I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless. Because that interpretation is frankly absurd on its face, and the novelization says nothing about any such deliberate self-endangerment. So all you have is "well, I think he's more powerful so he can't lose", which is bullshit. Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan and still lost.
Thank You!!
Personally I would put Windu at Best on Par with Palpatine in Force Potential. Windu had the Edge in Dueling skill. To me I just assumed that Palpatine couldn't beat Windu outright on his own. (it was at best a Stalemate) Plus, Windu kind of "Darkside Raged" (i.e. Luke/Vader ROTJ, and Obi Wan/Maul TPM.) That's my guess.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 04:30pm
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He was using Vaapad. Or is it Vapaad?

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 04:59pm
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Trooper TK12746 wrote:
He was using Vaapad. Or is it Vapaad?
I believe it's the Former. But Regardless. Mace was turning to the Darkside at that point in the Duel. "Darkside Rage" is somewhat Typically a term used to show instances when some Jedi attack out of anger against their opponents. Luke an Obi Wan both have done this.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 05:04pm
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That makes it seem that when you initially (as in, first few minutes) use to the Darkside your power greatly increases, but once your estblished as dark, you are suddenly weaker

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 05:07pm
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Darth Wong wrote:
I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless. Because that interpretation is frankly absurd on its face, and the novelization says nothing about any such deliberate self-endangerment. So all you have is "well, I think he's more powerful so he can't lose", which is bullshit. Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan and still lost.


I would agree in a moments notice, if not for all the other circumstances accompanying that duel.

And i don't think it has to do with Palpatine-wanking. The man likes to use himself as bait (twice in ROTS, once in ROTJ, at least once in the EU), thus endangering the continued existance of the Sith-Order, the clone-army WASN'T his idea, but that of Sify-Dias (what would Palpatine have done without the army???) and he is obviously a bad teacher (blowing up the brains of Maul AND Vader so much, that they stumble over their own arrogance). I'm sure, that if i think long enough i'll discover similar spectacular screw-ups in the EU. :wink:

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 05:10pm
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Vader didn't stumble over his own arrogance, Maul just didn't learn properly, and Dooku was already arrogant. And Dooku pretended to be Si Fodias and ordered the clone army as-per Palpatine's instructions.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 05:16pm
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Trooper TK12746 wrote:
That makes it seem that when you initially (as in, first few minutes) use to the Darkside your power greatly increases, but once your estblished as dark, you are suddenly weaker
Not exactly what I was getting at but, I can see how one can reach that conclusion.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 05:20pm
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What were you getting at?

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 05:24pm
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Trooper TK12746 wrote:
Vader didn't stumble over his own arrogance, Maul just didn't learn properly, and Dooku was already arrogant. And Dooku pretended to be Si Fodias and ordered the clone army as-per Palpatine's instructions.


According to LoE Sifo-Dias ordered the army and only AFTER Palpatine learnt about it he told Dooku to kill Sifo-Dias and bring Jango Fett to Kamino.

It is also LoE, that has Palpatine admitting, that he possibly screwed up Mauls training. And what is Palpatine saying in AOTC: "Trust your instincts. Then you'll be invincible." What did we see in ROTS? Anakin trying a stunt Obi-Wan warns him to do and what happens? A drop into the lava.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 05:30pm
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That was overconfidence, not trusting his instints. And Palpatine had not been able to teach Anakin anything important about using the Dark Side other than "use your anger". And Maul was overconfident and had been wounded in a confrontation with pirates and Tusken Raidors previous to the duel. Palpatine thought he could have done better, that doesn't mean he was a bad teacher, it meant that he could have improved. Obi-Wan is the perfect example of a terrible mentor/teacher/guide.


Why did Si Fo dias order the clone army?

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 05:45pm
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Trooper TK12746 wrote:
That was overconfidence, not trusting his instints. And Palpatine had not been able to teach Anakin anything important about using the Dark Side other than "use your anger".


What prequels have you been watching? Palpatine is mentoring Anakin for over ten years as soon as the Jedi don't look.

Quote:
And Maul was overconfident and had been wounded in a confrontation with pirates and Tusken Raidors previous to the duel.


Again, what movie have you been watching? Being wounded by pirates and Tusken didn't impede Maul during his duel against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in the slightest. Maul has the former killed and the second hanging above an abyss without a weapon and what is he doing? He is playing with him and then reacts incredible slowly as if unable to believe, that Obi-Wan could come back.

Quote:
Palpatine thought he could have done better, that doesn't mean he was a bad teacher, it meant that he could have improved. Obi-Wan is the perfect example of a terrible mentor/teacher/guide.


Well, i remember that quote from LoE in a different way. That Sidious made Maul hate the Jedi to much and that he made him think to be superior to them in every aspect.

Quote:
Why did Si Fo dias order the clone army?


Because he sensed dark times coming.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 05:51pm
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FTeik wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless. Because that interpretation is frankly absurd on its face, and the novelization says nothing about any such deliberate self-endangerment. So all you have is "well, I think he's more powerful so he can't lose", which is bullshit. Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan and still lost.

I would agree in a moments notice, if not for all the other circumstances accompanying that duel.

And i don't think it has to do with Palpatine-wanking. The man likes to use himself as bait (twice in ROTS, once in ROTJ, at least once in the EU), thus endangering the continued existance of the Sith-Order, the clone-army WASN'T his idea, but that of Sify-Dias (what would Palpatine have done without the army???) and he is obviously a bad teacher (blowing up the brains of Maul AND Vader so much, that they stumble over their own arrogance). I'm sure, that if i think long enough i'll discover similar spectacular screw-ups in the EU. :wink:

You know, you can make all the efforts you want in order to show that Palpatine wanted to set up that general situation, but you will never prove that he planned it to turn out exactly the way it did. You will never prove it because it's utter bullshit. If Palpatine had such perfect precognition of every variable, he wouldn't have fucking died in ROTJ.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 06:06pm
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Darth Wong wrote:
FTeik wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless. Because that interpretation is frankly absurd on its face, and the novelization says nothing about any such deliberate self-endangerment. So all you have is "well, I think he's more powerful so he can't lose", which is bullshit. Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan and still lost.

I would agree in a moments notice, if not for all the other circumstances accompanying that duel.

And i don't think it has to do with Palpatine-wanking. The man likes to use himself as bait (twice in ROTS, once in ROTJ, at least once in the EU), thus endangering the continued existance of the Sith-Order, the clone-army WASN'T his idea, but that of Sify-Dias (what would Palpatine have done without the army???) and he is obviously a bad teacher (blowing up the brains of Maul AND Vader so much, that they stumble over their own arrogance). I'm sure, that if i think long enough i'll discover similar spectacular screw-ups in the EU. :wink:

You know, you can make all the efforts you want in order to show that Palpatine wanted to set up that general situation, but you will never prove that he planned it to turn out exactly the way it did. You will never prove it because it's utter bullshit. If Palpatine had such perfect precognition of every variable, he wouldn't have fucking died in ROTJ.
Correct. For the most part his precog abilities were very accurate. But what screwed them up was Luke and Leia. Their births scared Palpatine shitless. It was why he wanted them (namely Luke) dead in the first place (ESB). Every thing after ESB, Palpatine was playing it as it went.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-16 07:54pm
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Darth Wong wrote:
I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless.


In one part midway through the duel, he has his sabre pointed directly at Windu's chest, and could kill him with a quick stab, since Mace's lightsabre is off to the side, and out of play. The fact that Palpatine doesn't kill him would suggest that the whole thing was a setup. Since, as per that theory, he needed to convince Windu to try to kill him, but time it so that he lost his sabre just before Anakin entered.



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