Chaos gods show up in B5verse.

[StimNeuro]

Quite apart from the minor detail that they are made with geneseed from the Emperor himself

Almost certainly myth.

I thought the Primarchs were greated from the geneseed of the Emperor and the Founding Legions themselves created from the geneseed of the Primarchs. Wouldn't that, therefore, mean that the Marines share the geneseed of the Emperor?

[NecronLord]

Geneseed is a specific thing. They might be based on the Emperor's Genes somewhat, though I'm uncertain. The Emperor didn't have a gene-seed.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I think the Minbari are fucked. They've already got their own soul-detecting technology (see Sinclair), so we can safely assume that they have souls and are not pariahs or blanks. Thus the Minbari are up for grabs for the infernal powers.

Besides, they already believe that all of their souls are subsumed into some larger entity in the afterlife (their own chaos god? Valen, perhaps?), they believe that they are losing souls ( good for Chaos) and that they have to steal their souls back from the humans, hence Delenn's business with the triluminary (stealing human souls, eh?...). Plus, they're very willing to meet Khorne halfway on the insane bloodlust issue.


Seeing how everyone responded to Kosh's appearance on the station, they should be very receptive to a little show of warpcraft (except to Londo. Maybe he's a blank! ). And the speed at which G'Kar's cult grew indicates that a charismatic opportunist could really be the end of the Narn Regime.

The Brakiri are fucked the next time they have a "Day of the Dead". If the warp critters don't use it to exploit them, then those who fight chaos will probably off them just in case.

I'm not liking the Rangers' chances, either. They're already technically a cult of personality ("We live for the One, we die for the One"), plus they have a lot of involvement on Minbar, with an overemphasis on esoteric rituals. Hell, they can't figgin' eat without some mystical rite. How long until they get corrupted, Soul Drinkers-style?

The Marcab clearly demonstrated the ability to resist Nurgle. Good for them. Pity they all died from the effort.

And the Drakh... Oh, the Drakh... Professional bootlicks with ambitions to grandeur. They're chaos fodder for sure.

[Lord Zentei]

Good. What the hell are we arguing about then? I mean all the above issues are kind of beside the point then, yes?

Who knows. You started it.

My point was that it is highly questionable to say that the regulars in the Imperial Navy would be unsusceptible to Chaos. If you are no longer saying this then concession accepted.

Given that he can do this regardless of their wills... does this make them more or less susceptible?

Who knows. It's nothing to do with their wills, he does it to standard humans too. It's a form of Jedi Battle Meditation, and says nothing about the willpower of those under his influence.

Yeah, and Chaos can suffuse their regular human slaves with their will too, not just the marines.

Whoa, there is a slight difference in the willpower of a Grey Knight and a Stormtrooper.

So. You say brianwashing makes you suseptible to chaos, obviously it doesn't.

Not quite: I'm pointing out that the stormies were susceptible to Obi-Wan's mind control due to their weak will, implying that they could presumably be mind controlled in a similar way by a Chaos agency.

Quite apart from the minor detail that they are made with geneseed from the Emperor himself

Almost certainly myth.

Heretic.

and the fact that their training and screening bars all but a fraction of the applicants and is custom designed to handle Chaos...

So? It's still proof that brainwashing isn't a first step to Chaos.

Nopers. Their training is less about mind controlling them than it is specifically designed to shut out future mind control by an unauthorized agency. Seeing that the Grey Knights can stare into the very depths of the Warp and come out without a blemish to their souls, I daresay that Obi-Wan would have found it rather harder to mind control them than those two stormies on Tatooine.

[NecronLord]

Bob. Any last words before I choke you for that post?

[Lord Zentei]

I think the Minbari are fucked. They've already got their own soul-detecting technology (see Sinclair), so we can safely assume that they have souls and are not pariahs or blanks. Thus the Minbari are up for grabs for the infernal powers.

Besides, they already believe that all of their souls are subsumed into some larger entity in the afterlife (their own chaos god? Valen, perhaps?), they believe that they are losing souls ( good for Chaos) and that they have to steal their souls back from the humans, hence Delenn's business with the triluminary (stealing human souls, eh?...). Plus, they're very willing to meet Khorne halfway on the insane bloodlust issue.

The fact that those godawful Soul Hunters can filch just about anyone's soul, I daresay that everyone will be susceptible at least in theory.

The Minbary soul detection tech and familiarity with such concepts would make them more wary of Chaos rather than less, methinks.

Incidentally, they are loosing souls because they are being reborn into the human race, not because of Chaos or anything. Minbari and Humans are interrelated on the spiritual level.

[NecronLord]

Yikes.

This soul nonsense is getting out of hand. The definition of a 'soul' in the 40K sense is very specific, and one can happily be sentient without one (see Bequin and her ilk). The B5 definition is radically different, and no organic being can be sentient without a soul (even Lorien is unable to create life, and the Vorlons do not know how to create a soul - this is what they tried to learn with the Thirdspace gate) they may or may not exist (the Triluminary only reacts to those with the genes of Valen, not just any soul. Furthermore, JMS has said that the views on souls expressed in the series are just the character's beliefs, and that you may validly assume them to be completely incorrect.) secondly, the conclusion that minbari souls are being reborn into human bodies is extremely suspect, as we know that Sheridan was not a reincarnation of Valen, as they believed, but was in fact, Valen himself.

IOW, assumging that a different Franchises' use of the word 'soul' means that its inhabitants have a warpsoul is absoloutely absurd.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Bob. Any last words before I choke you for that post?

>>
<<
>>
*points to chest*

Me? What did I do?

*gives impression of innocence with big puppy-dog eyes*

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Alright. But they at least believe in souls and all that crap. And with Chaos, belief is half the battle.

And after ITB, the Minbari are coming across as awfully Khorney.

[Lord Zentei]

This soul nonsense is getting out of hand. The definition of a 'soul' in the 40K sense is very specific, and one can happily be sentient without one (see Bequin and her ilk). The B5 definition is radically different, and no organic being can be sentient without a soul (even Lorien is unable to create life, and the Vorlons do not know how to create a soul - this is what they tried to learn with the Thirdspace gate) they may or may not exist (the Triluminary only reacts to those with the genes of Valen, not just any soul. Furthermore, JMS has said that the views on souls expressed in the series are just the character's beliefs, and that you may validly assume them to be completely incorrect.)

Yeah, fair enough.

secondly, the conclusion that minbari souls are being reborn into human bodies is extremely suspect, as we know that Sheridan was not a reincarnation of Valen, as they believed, but was in fact, Valen himself.

I always understood it that this is what initiated the connection between the two races in the first place, but meh.

IOW, assumging that a different Franchises' use of the word 'soul' means that its inhabitants have a warpsoul is absoloutely absurd.

Yeah, they probably don't in their respective franchises. Though my previous point of the necessity of introducing the Warp into the franchize in question in order to debate Chaos issues at all still stands, and the null hypothesis is that the preponderance of warpsouls among the humans in the given franchise should be similar to that in 40K. Otherwise, we are arguing such-and-such a franchise vs Chaos, except that the powers associated with Chaos are not to be included... not much of a vs.

[NecronLord]

The sheer and total idiocy of assuming that the word soul means the same in 40K as it does elsewhere. Despite the fact that a soulless sentience is possible in 40K, whereas, in many other settings, say, the DragonStar RPG, it is completey impossible.

It's like saying "The Minbari have hyperspace, therefore, one can blockade Minbar with interdictor cruisers."

What does JMS have to say on B5 souls?

What the soul was, who's right, and even whether this is SF or Science Fantasy, was it explained enough to merit one over the other ... how can I put this...? I don't want to spoon-feed stuff to people. What I want is not to hit someone with a MORAL, or a message, or "This is what a soul is," or "This is what makes it an SF series," I want to start discussions. Arguments. Preferably a bar fight or two.

We present an issue. Here are the sides. Now...what do YOU think about it? I want this show to ask, "Who are you? Where are you going?" That's half the fun. Some of my favorites pastimes in college were sitting in the commons, or the library, arguing this stuff from every possible angle. You think I'm gonna tell you what to think? What it means? No. The goal is to provoke discussion. Preferably passionate discussion.

The view of the Soul Hunters is that Soul is just a word for Sentience. When you die. Poof! Soul Gone! Unless a Soul Hunter snapshots your mind.

This doesn't gel with the Day of the Dead having people come back, but that is rather bizzare all round, and in no way indicative of souls being equivalent to 40k Warpsouls. Hell, technically, one could craft an argument that the events of Day of the Dead prove that B5 souls would be inconsumable by Warp Entities, as they evidently go to another afterlife.

[Lord Zentei]

This soul nonsense is getting out of hand. The definition of a 'soul' in the 40K sense is very specific, and one can happily be sentient without one (see Bequin and her ilk). The B5 definition is radically different, and no organic being can be sentient without a soul (even Lorien is unable to create life, and the Vorlons do not know how to create a soul - this is what they tried to learn with the Thirdspace gate) they may or may not exist (the Triluminary only reacts to those with the genes of Valen, not just any soul. Furthermore, JMS has said that the views on souls expressed in the series are just the character's beliefs, and that you may validly assume them to be completely incorrect.)

Yeah, fair enough.

Ghetto edit: It was more in half-jest answer to Bob's post rather than confusion on my part between B5 and 40K souls, you know.

[Lord Zentei]

What the soul was, who's right, and even whether this is SF or Science Fantasy, was it explained enough to merit one over the other ... how can I put this...? I don't want to spoon-feed stuff to people. What I want is not to hit someone with a MORAL, or a message, or "This is what a soul is," or "This is what makes it an SF series," I want to start discussions. Arguments. Preferably a bar fight or two.

We present an issue. Here are the sides. Now...what do YOU think about it? I want this show to ask, "Who are you? Where are you going?" That's half the fun. Some of my favorites pastimes in college were sitting in the commons, or the library, arguing this stuff from every possible angle. You think I'm gonna tell you what to think? What it means? No. The goal is to provoke discussion. Preferably passionate discussion.

He seems to have been successful in that regard.

This doesn't gel with the Day of the Dead having people come back, but that is rather bizzare all round, and in no way indicative of souls being equivalent to 40k Warpsouls. Hell, technically, one could craft an argument that the events of Day of the Dead prove that B5 souls would be inconsumable by Warp Entities, as they evidently go to another afterlife.

Not neccesarily, as while they can go to this afterlife, there is a distinct absence of Chaos Gods to prevent them from so doing, so it doesn't really prove anything either way.

[Junghalli]

IOW, assumging that a different Franchises' use of the word 'soul' means that its inhabitants have a warpsoul is absoloutely absurd.

Humans exist in both 40K and B5. For purposes of a vs. debate it is assumed that the Immaterium exists in both galaxies. In 40K human pariahs are very rare. Why should B5 humanity be all pariahs?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Ghetto edit: It was more in half-jest answer to Bob's post rather than confusion on my part between B5 and 40K souls, you know.

It should be noted, in case anyone missed it, that my entire first post was at least half in jest. Maybe even three-quarters in jest.

And here is more jest:

So, Necronlord, are you saying that the Soul Hunters use a primitive form of Necrontyr-like technology? That maybe in 10,000 years they will not just save souls, but encase them in cold morbidium armor? Maybe they'll go to the C'Tan, then.

[SAMAS]

IOW, assumging that a different Franchises' use of the word 'soul' means that its inhabitants have a warpsoul is absoloutely absurd.

Humans exist in both 40K and B5. For purposes of a vs. debate it is assumed that the Immaterium exists in both galaxies. In 40K human pariahs are very rare. Why should B5 humanity be all pariahs?

They really can't be.

Pariahs in 40K tend to leave a distinct(and negative) impression on those around them.

I think it's like Apples and Oranges, literally. They're both "Souls" in the same way an apple and an orange are both "Fruit" Now imagine a man who's knows only about apples all his life suddenly confronted with a watermelon.

[SirNitram]

They really can't be.

Pariahs in 40K tend to leave a distinct(and negative) impression on those around them.

Well, given that 40k humans are developing psykkers and they would therefore have some perception of a 'different'... And we know humans hate different things... That would be a far more sensible conclusion than 'Magic bad feelings'.

[SAMAS]

They really can't be.

Pariahs in 40K tend to leave a distinct(and negative) impression on those around them.

Well, given that 40k humans are developing psykkers and they would therefore have some perception of a 'different'... And we know humans hate different things... That would be a far more sensible conclusion than 'Magic bad feelings'.

In the Eisenhorn Trilogy, it's clearly stated that pariahs, also known as untouchables, tend to automatically repulse people, even Blunts(non-Psyckers) who don't know a thing about the person in question. You just know that something is very, very, wrong about them, like the spiritual equivalent of B.O. (This is reflected in 40K by the fact that Untouchable units, like Necron Pariahs and Culexus Assassins, automatically drop the Leadership of units nearby to a maximum of 7.)

And it's many, many times worse for actual psyckers, who can become all but physically ill in their presence. This was especially hard on Eiesenhorn, being a psycker who happened to be in love with a pariah.

[SirNitram]

They really can't be.

Pariahs in 40K tend to leave a distinct(and negative) impression on those around them.

Well, given that 40k humans are developing psykkers and they would therefore have some perception of a 'different'... And we know humans hate different things... That would be a far more sensible conclusion than 'Magic bad feelings'.

In the Eisenhorn Trilogy, it's clearly stated that pariahs, also known as untouchables, tend to automatically repulse people, even Blunts(non-Psyckers) who don't know a thing about the person in question. You just know that something is very, very, wrong about them, like the spiritual equivalent of B.O. (This is reflected in 40K by the fact that Untouchable units, like Necron Pariahs and Culexus Assassins, automatically drop the Leadership of units nearby to a maximum of 7.)

And it's many, many times worse for actual psyckers, who can become all but physically ill in their presence. This was especially hard on Eiesenhorn, being a psycker who happened to be in love with a pariah.

Humans are a particularly rising psyk-capable species. The fact it is even stronger in Psykkers is evidence for my hypothesis that the repulsion is because they sense an otherness, an emptiness where a human should be in the Warp. A Blank/Pariah would not necessarily be noticed in a less Warp-sensitive species.

[Lancer]

Wait a second, do Necron Pariahs affect other Necrons? Because I'm pretty sure that all Necrons and Necrontyr are and always were completely nonexistent in the warp.

[Junghalli]

In the Eisenhorn Trilogy, it's clearly stated that pariahs, also known as untouchables, tend to automatically repulse people, even Blunts(non-Psyckers) who don't know a thing about the person in question. You just know that something is very, very, wrong about them

Yeah that's basically what Nitram was saying. Normal humans percieve something different about a pariah, and the natural human thought process seems to be that different=wrong.
Trying to get a date must be tough if you're one of these guys. I wonder if (in-universe) some of the dweebs and loosers of the (modern) world aren't pariahs...

Wait a second, do Necron Pariahs affect other Necrons? Because I'm pretty sure that all Necrons and Necrontyr are and always were completely nonexistent in the warp.

Necrons do have warpsouls. I'll see if I can dig up where I read that.

[NecronLord]

Untouchables do not repel each other.

[NecronLord]

Necrons do have warpsouls. I'll see if I can dig up where I read that.

Opinion is divided on the matter. Sometimes they're said to have souls, sometimes they're described as "The soulless ones." As all these are in universe comments, and no one in universe is qualified to answer that question, not even the C'tan, it's speculation at best.

[Lord Zentei]

Wait a second, do Necron Pariahs affect other Necrons? Because I'm pretty sure that all Necrons and Necrontyr are and always were completely nonexistent in the warp.

Warning: game mechanic argument

[GrainOfSalt]The Soulless rule of Pariahs does not affect anything in the Necron army[/GrainOfSalt]

We now return to our regular arguments...

It would be pretty stupid if a Necron Lord were repelled by his own bodyguard, yes?

[white_rabbit]

Necrons do have warpsouls. I'll see if I can dig up where I read that.

Opinion is divided on the matter. Sometimes they're said to have souls, sometimes they're described as "The soulless ones." As all these are in universe comments, and no one in universe is qualified to answer that question, not even the C'tan, it's speculation at best.

ripped this from a4 site ancaris directed 4me to...and my keyboard seems to be possessed by a daemon that likes the number four...arrghgh1111 oh look, its got a