Superman vs. Lucifer

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2005-05-21 09:32am

Alright, lets say Superman from Kingdom Come gets a little TOO self-righteous and decides to go after the fallen one himself, Lucifer. He flies to the Lux and demands to duke it out with the Lightbringer. I only thought of this because of the little throwaway line by Spectre in Kingdom Come that said Superman's rage would cower Satan himself. Now, since Vertigo's Lucifer does NOT cower, I wondered how a confrontation between the two of them would go, especially if Superman is enraged like he was.

Lucifer (Pre-Demiurge)

vs.

Pissed off Kingdom Come Superman

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-05-21 12:44pm

Unknown.

One thing you should note about Lucifer is that he has almost never expended any of his personal 'power', he's probably the single most dangerous enemy you could have in the DCU (he managed to defeat Garamas and Gyges when they were omnipotent), but he never seems to actually do anything, he simply arranges things so that they happen to his benefit.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-05-21 12:58pm

If one of the elder of the Endless (dream) is worried that lucifer is much more powerful than they are, then i sincerely doubt supes would stand much of a chance against him.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2005-05-21 07:09pm

Vendetta wrote:Unknown.

One thing you should note about Lucifer is that he has almost never expended any of his personal 'power', he's probably the single most dangerous enemy you could have in the DCU (he managed to defeat Garamas and Gyges when they were omnipotent), but he never seems to actually do anything, he simply arranges things so that they happen to his benefit.

True. The only offhand times I can think of him actually doing something proactive was when he casually blasted the hell out of that half-breed angel, and when he roasted Loki's snake.

I did like though when the Host was getting ready to assault Lux they predicted HEAVY losses against just him. And he even made reference to the fact that he could have probably wiped out the inhabitants of Hell with little or no effort.

So I guess this is a rather pointless debate, my mistake

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-05-22 01:23am

To put even into better effect...Spectre defers to Lucifer. A being that could easily rips Supey a new hole....gets out of Lucifer's tanning time.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2005-05-22 09:36am

Throw-away lines aside, Superman and Lucifer operate on entirely different scales of power: KC Superman would probably be killed by a big nuke detonated at point blank range. (Captain Marvel was, and he had the strength to at least hit Superman and make him feel it, regardless of whether Supes was holding back) Lucifer took a big bang to the breadbox without getting his hair messed up. If one argues that Lucifer stood apart from the effects of the Demiurgic blast because he caused it (although recent spoilertastic events in Lucifer suggest that this would not have been the case), then we can scale down by about two dozen orders of magnitude and consider that he held his universe's Earth-counterpart's sun in his hand and made it dim and restart while explaining the ban on worship to that world's new inhabitants.

Even if one stubbornly insists that in his universe, the rules were his to write (in which case rage-ahol fueled KC Supes would have to get Luci to come to him to get beat up) and that doesn't count, we can drop by a FURTHER dozen orders of magnitude, and see that during the launch of Naglfar, Lucifer casually nuked a valley full of Giants who were intent on stopping the ship's launch by destroying it. The fireball was large enough to fill the valley and thoroughly singe the Naglfar in spite of the later hauling serious ass at the time, which I feel is sufficient to put the blast into the megaton range, which is roughly the power of atomic bomb which you would need to thoroughly vaporize a top-tier Kingdom Come super human.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2005-05-22 01:00pm

Sounds like you might need to bring out the Golden Age Superman if you want him to stand a chance ...

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-05-26 02:36am

Wait, didn't Lucifer give up Hell anyway and start a restaurant?

speaker-to-trolls · Post by **speaker-to-trolls** » 2005-05-26 04:15am

Molyneux wrote:Wait, didn't Lucifer give up Hell anyway and start a restaurant?

He did indeed, your point?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-05-26 10:49am

Molyneux wrote:Wait, didn't Lucifer give up Hell anyway and start a restaurant?

he did, but he never gave up any of his power.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-05-26 01:53pm

Sriad wrote:KC Superman would probably be killed by a big nuke detonated at point blank range. (Captain Marvel was, and he had the strength to at least hit Superman and make him feel it, regardless of whether Supes was holding back)

Captain Marvel's powers are magic-based, and Supes has always had a vunerability to magic. While Marvel died from the nuke, you cannot simply say that Supes would have been killed as well.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2005-05-26 06:22pm

Wasn't Lucifer described as the second most powerful being in existence in Sandman?

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-05-26 06:28pm

speaker-to-trolls wrote:
Molyneux wrote:Wait, didn't Lucifer give up Hell anyway and start a restaurant?
He did indeed, your point?

Well, for one, he cut his wings off...I assumed that that would make him somewhat less powerful. More than that, though, I'd thought that he had decided to just become a noncombatant - a bystander.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-05-26 06:36pm

Molyneux wrote:
speaker-to-trolls wrote:
Molyneux wrote:Wait, didn't Lucifer give up Hell anyway and start a restaurant?
He did indeed, your point?
Well, for one, he cut his wings off...I assumed that that would make him somewhat less powerful. More than that, though, I'd thought that he had decided to just become a noncombatant - a bystander.

lucifer basically decided to kick back and take it easy for awhile. though like i said above, he never gave up any of his power. he states so himself when addressing the archangel that comes to try and convince him to take back hell (the one working with duma. i forget his name) in one of the sandman issues.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-05-26 06:37pm

Crom wrote:Sounds like you might need to bring out the Golden Age Superman if you want him to stand a chance ...

Urm-Golden Age Supes couldn't even fly, he could just jump really really far. You're thinking Silver Age Supes there.

The Morrigan · Post by **The Morrigan** » 2005-05-27 04:06am

Darth_Zod wrote:lucifer basically decided to kick back and take it easy for awhile. though like i said above, he never gave up any of his power. he states so himself when addressing the archangel that comes to try and convince him to take back hell (the one working with duma. i forget his name) in one of the sandman issues.

Isn't it also mentioned somewhere that Lucifer is the second most powerful being in the universe, the implication being that the Creator is the most powerful?

I'm thinking that Lucifer would crush Superman like a mildly irritating bug, or perhaps just do something amusingly evil to him. However I don't have a lot besides the above and, as somebody else mentioned, the fact that even Dream is scared of him, to back that up with.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-05-27 11:02am

The Morrigan wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:lucifer basically decided to kick back and take it easy for awhile. though like i said above, he never gave up any of his power. he states so himself when addressing the archangel that comes to try and convince him to take back hell (the one working with duma. i forget his name) in one of the sandman issues.
Isn't it also mentioned somewhere that Lucifer is the second most powerful being in the universe, the implication being that the Creator is the most powerful?

I'm thinking that Lucifer would crush Superman like a mildly irritating bug, or perhaps just do something amusingly evil to him. However I don't have a lot besides the above and, as somebody else mentioned, the fact that even Dream is scared of him, to back that up with.

Dream isn't so much scared of lucifer, but he recognizes the fact that if it came to blows between the two of them, Dream would probably lose. i think the only one of the endless that lucifer probably fears is Death as it is.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2005-05-27 11:12am

Darth_Zod wrote:
Dream isn't so much scared of lucifer, but he recognizes the fact that if it came to blows between the two of them, Dream would probably lose. i think the only one of the endless that lucifer probably fears is Death as it is.

He didnt seem to afraid of her in their little encounter IMO. And he is insulted by Destiny.

Maybe Destruction would have given the Lightbringer a run for his money then?

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2005-05-27 12:21pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Captain Marvel's powers are magic-based, and Supes has always had a vunerability to magic. While Marvel died from the nuke, you cannot simply say that Supes would have been killed as well.

Marvel didn't just get killed, he was vaporized.

I'd argue that even though Marvel's lightning was magic based, his punches, which did have an effect on Superman (just because Marvel has fists of Magic? puh-lease

), required Marvel to have a certain level of structural strength; this was absolutely overwheled by the point-blank detonation.

What I'm basically saying is Marvel~=Superman in terms of toughness, power of bomb>>Marvel's toughness, so it seems reasonable to assume that at least bomb>Superman's toughness.

To Molyneux: regardless of the effect of wing loss, Lucifer got them back in a pretty early story line.

speaker-to-trolls · Post by **speaker-to-trolls** » 2005-05-27 12:43pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Dream isn't so much scared of lucifer, but he recognizes the fact that if it came to blows between the two of them, Dream would probably lose. i think the only one of the endless that lucifer probably fears is Death as it is.

Oh really?, he seemed pretty scared to me, he even said so

Dream wrote:'Welcome to hell', I tell myself, and I am afraid

Although, to be honest, Dream has never demonstrated that much power outside of the Dreaming. He can fuck with mortals' heads well enough and he did stand in the middle of a burning building without noticing, but in terms of combat ability he hasn't shown a lot to inspire terror.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-05-27 03:50pm

speaker-to-trolls wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:
Dream isn't so much scared of lucifer, but he recognizes the fact that if it came to blows between the two of them, Dream would probably lose. i think the only one of the endless that lucifer probably fears is Death as it is.
Oh really?, he seemed pretty scared to me, he even said so

Dream wrote:'Welcome to hell', I tell myself, and I am afraid
Although, to be honest, Dream has never demonstrated that much power outside of the Dreaming. He can fuck with mortals' heads well enough and he did stand in the middle of a burning building without noticing, but in terms of combat ability he hasn't shown a lot to inspire terror.

He owned Chrono-whatsisname fairly easily, even at a muchly-depleted power level (back in the very beginning of Sandman, when he was trying to get back his treasure), and he outfaced the entirety of the hordes of Hell when he left. His power may be mostly in the mind, but to anything that *has* a mind, he has power.

Sriad wrote:What I'm basically saying is Marvel~=Superman in terms of toughness, power of bomb>>Marvel's toughness, so it seems reasonable to assume that at least bomb>Superman's toughness.

Didn't Superman take a nuke at point-blank range in "Dark Knight Returns", and barely - BARELY - survive it? Granted, he had to drain the life from an entire forest to bring himself back from the brink of death, but he survived it.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-05-27 03:53pm

Molyneux wrote:
Sriad wrote:What I'm basically saying is Marvel~=Superman in terms of toughness, power of bomb>>Marvel's toughness, so it seems reasonable to assume that at least bomb>Superman's toughness.
Didn't Superman take a nuke at point-blank range in "Dark Knight Returns", and barely - BARELY - survive it? Granted, he had to drain the life from an entire forest to bring himself back from the brink of death, but he survived it.

depends on which version of superman you're talking about. the incident sriad's talking of, iirc, the bomb dropped on both marvel and supes at the same time. it was powerful enough to take out marvel, but superman was untouched. of course this was silver age superman, during kingdom come.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-05-28 12:15am

Sriad wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:Captain Marvel's powers are magic-based, and Supes has always had a vunerability to magic. While Marvel died from the nuke, you cannot simply say that Supes would have been killed as well.
Marvel didn't just get killed, he was vaporized.

I'd argue that even though Marvel's lightning was magic based, his punches, which did have an effect on Superman (just because Marvel has fists of Magic? puh-lease ), required Marvel to have a certain level of structural strength; this was absolutely overwheled by the point-blank detonation.

What I'm basically saying is Marvel~=Superman in terms of toughness, power of bomb>>Marvel's toughness, so it seems reasonable to assume that at least bomb>Superman's toughness.

To Molyneux: regardless of the effect of wing loss, Lucifer got them back in a pretty early story line.

Marvel had the "strenght of Zeus". Zeus is a magical being. Marvel is a goddamn magical being- whether or not you like it is irrelevent.

As for Marvel ~= Superman durability-wise... I'm not buying that. Since when has Marvel ever stood up to some of the shit of such wanktitude as Supes?

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2005-05-28 12:54am

Darth_Zod wrote:Dream isn't so much scared of lucifer, but he recognizes the fact that if it came to blows between the two of them, Dream would probably lose. i think the only one of the endless that lucifer probably fears is Death as it is.

Oh he was indeed personally afraid of Lucifer. Example:

Lucifer - "Hello, Dream. Take off that silly helmet, and we'll talk."

Dream - "I will not be tricked by you, Lucifer Morningstar."

Lucifer - "Why, sweet Morpheus...are you scared of me?"

Dream - "Yes"

Lucifer - "Very well. Then I give you my word that while we are within the bounds of Hell, I will do nothing to harm you. There. Now take off your helmet and I'll tell you whats happened to your lady-love, and the rest of them"

*Dream takes off his helmet, nervous sweat covering his forehead*

From their little encounter in Season of Mists

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2005-05-28 12:57am

Molyneux wrote:[He owned Chrono-whatsisname fairly easily, even at a muchly-depleted power level (back in the very beginning of Sandman, when he was trying to get back his treasure), and he outfaced the entirety of the hordes of Hell when he left. His power may be mostly in the mind, but to anything that *has* a mind, he has power

They NEVER FOUGHT. If you actually paid attention, Dream basically beat him in a game of charades, not a contest of power. And right afterwards, the denizens of Hell let him leave simply because he showed them that THEY owed HIM a great deal, and them standing aside for him was more of a grudging, reluctant respect after the poetic point he made about the whole situation.