Somtaaw Dreadnought (HW Cataclysm) versus GCS

[Antares]

If there was a edit button but there none...
http://well-of-souls.com/homeworld/hws/beast/index.html
This sheet states a mass of roughly 13000t (this is getting boring)

This means:
1 armor point ~ 1 GJ

[Ra]

My head hurts after reading that. Is it 2.3 GJ? 3.7GJ? 0.74 GJ? 1 GJ Ahhhhh! . If we supposed 1 GJ, the Well of souls site says a small missile does 60 points of damage. For simplicity, I'll say Dread missiles do 70 points.
>90000 Dreadnought health at 1 GJ per point
>6 missiles per volley at 70 points = 70 GJ
>420 Gigajoules for one volley
>seven volleys = 2940 GJ
Considering how Worf was concerned about "400 GJ of particle energy", I think this estimate concludes that Dreadnought missiles are indeed a threat to a GCS, however, I'm not exactly a physics expert, so converting GJ to kilotons is a whole new ballgame.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

One kiloton is 4184 GJ, so each missile volley would be about .1 kilotons.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Which means that the a GCS has to hit the Dreadnought 21 times. Roughly equal to four photon spreads (6 photons per spread) of what we've seen the E-D accomplish. (TNG Survivors) This is of course not counting phaser strikes, but the E-D was able to repeat that spread rather quickly.

This is of course assuming that photons are 1KT each. Which we know they are higher than that. High KT to low MT range. Which is one reason why Star Trek shields are considered "unique"

Thus, assuming 1KT photons, no phasers, equal reload time, and the Dreadnought is still able to be fully functional through the entire exchange the Dreadnought and a GCS would probably destroy each other.

Thus, I think it's safe to conclude that the Dreadnought will lose this battle.

[Kamakazie Sith]

If photons are 1MT then the battle won't last five minutes. (1MT = 4184000GJ)

[Kamakazie Sith]

Correction, I meant at least 22 times which would be 92048GJ. Which should also be a reality check for everyone here. Photons are certainly more than 1KT, and if they are more than 21KT then the fight will be over with the first torpedo.

[Ra]

Thanks. As for the calculations, here they continue for the entire attack:
1 GJ per hull point: 2942 GJ,
or about .7 kilotons?
2 GJ per hull point: 5884 GJ,
or 1.4 kilotons?
3.7 GJ per hull point: 10878 GJ,
or about 2.6 kilotons?
Unfortunately, by even the most optimistic figures, a missile attack wouldn't exactly be multikiloton. So much for that. the only thing left to hang onto is Worf's 400 GW figure, something whose validity many people question. And of course, a gigawatt is gigajoules per second, so that also makes a difference. It's possible for a Dreadnought to still have a chance, but the odds just got a lot more in the GCS's favor.

[Shinova]

A little side bit: about your sig, Ra,


The Bentusi are supposed to be merged completely with their ships, right? Just trying to make sense of the quote.

[Connor MacLeod]

The only calculation you can do is using the ramming frigate.
Based on these values:
http://well-of-souls.com/homeworld/hws/ ... index.html

The canon values for speed (even if this is shit) is states as 398m/s so its roughly 400m/s. and the mass is 50.000tons. THis would give a kinetic energy of 4.000.000.000.000J or 4 TJ

A single ramming does does 1700 damage points so 1700 points of damage are equal to 4 TJ this means a single armor point is equal to 2.352.941.176 J
or roughly 2.3 GJ.

A archangle got 90.000 armor points which means it could withstand about 3.6E18J before its destroyed.

Now its up to you to do further math on yields based on
1 armor point = 2.3 GJ

Problem: Any sort of ramming event does not invovle just kinetic energy but momentum (same with the asteroid calc.)

OTOH there is a reference somewhere about a pair of "destroyers" being able to vaporize a frigate. That might provide better calcs

[Kamakazie Sith]

Thanks. As for the calculations, here they continue for the entire attack:
1 GJ per hull point: 2942 GJ,
or about .7 kilotons?
2 GJ per hull point: 5884 GJ,
or 1.4 kilotons?
3.7 GJ per hull point: 10878 GJ,
or about 2.6 kilotons?
Unfortunately, by even the most optimistic figures, a missile attack wouldn't exactly be multikiloton. So much for that. the only thing left to hang onto is Worf's 400 GW figure, something whose validity many people question. And of course, a gigawatt is gigajoules per second, so that also makes a difference. It's possible for a Dreadnought to still have a chance, but the odds just got a lot more in the GCS's favor.

(Actually the Husnock vessel had to fire twice to completely disable the shields)

However, lets just say that even if the GCS shields have a max limit of 400GJ, and the photons are 1KT they best they could hope for is a MAD scenario.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Problem: Any sort of ramming event does not invovle just kinetic energy but momentum (same with the asteroid calc.)

OTOH there is a reference somewhere about a pair of "destroyers" being able to vaporize a frigate. That might provide better calcs

Do Homeworld vessels have reactor problems? No matter, let's see where this goes. Assuming there were no aggravating variables, and the destroyers vaporized the frigate in one second. How much firepower are they putting out?

[Connor MacLeod]

Problem: Any sort of ramming event does not invovle just kinetic energy but momentum (same with the asteroid calc.)

OTOH there is a reference somewhere about a pair of "destroyers" being able to vaporize a frigate. That might provide better calcs

Do Homeworld vessels have reactor problems? No matter, let's see where this goes. Assuming there were no aggravating variables, and the destroyers vaporized the frigate in one second. How much firepower are they putting out?

Reactor problems, like what?

As for timeframe, its at least 2 seconds but less than a minute (it says "matter of seconds" in the Cataclysm manual.)

[Kamakazie Sith]

Problem: Any sort of ramming event does not invovle just kinetic energy but momentum (same with the asteroid calc.)

OTOH there is a reference somewhere about a pair of "destroyers" being able to vaporize a frigate. That might provide better calcs

Do Homeworld vessels have reactor problems? No matter, let's see where this goes. Assuming there were no aggravating variables, and the destroyers vaporized the frigate in one second. How much firepower are they putting out?

Reactor problems, like what?

As for timeframe, its at least 2 seconds but less than a minute (it says "matter of seconds" in the Cataclysm manual.)

Err sorry. What I meant was do their reactors cook off?

[Crossroads Inc.]

As far as I know, aside from the "HyperSpace Cores" theres no mention at all about what exactly powers HW ships in terms of Reactors or such...

Also The Bentusi are, odd... It's said they are merged with thier ships, but like, All of them? Bentusi ships are HUGE, even the realtivly 'small' trade ships, and Bentus itself ((seen in HW2)) is easily more then 7km long. That seems like an awful lot of space.

[Connor MacLeod]

In the meantime, the Missile destroyer can produce 1 missile armed with a fusion warhead every 5 seconds.

According to SWTC (star destrtoyer page under 'shields'), it would take a "deliberate effort of profoundly high technology" to create a fusion explosive with a yield less than 100 kilotons), so arguably, the missile's yield could be said to be at least that much.

Said missile destroyer can carry 32 missiles total, and unleash 32 missiles all at once. so said MD can uleash a potential of 3200 kilotons in a single volley, and 100 more kilotons every 5 seconds (or a sustained output of oh, 20 kilotons a second.) To restore a full load of missiles takes 160 seconds (nearly 3 minutes.)

Of course, we must note these are likely to be omnidirectional blasts, so only partt of the energy will likely be absorbed (intensity applies here), as does accounting for any potential drop due to inverse square at "stand off range."

[Connor MacLeod]

Do Homeworld vessels have reactor problems? No matter, let's see where this goes. Assuming there were no aggravating variables, and the destroyers vaporized the frigate in one second. How much firepower are they putting out?

Reactor problems, like what?

As for timeframe, its at least 2 seconds but less than a minute (it says "matter of seconds" in the Cataclysm manual.)

Err sorry. What I meant was do their reactors cook off?

IIRC they run on fusion, so no, its not likely they cook off the way something more volatile (like antimatter) would.

[Connor MacLeod]

As far as I know, aside from the "HyperSpace Cores" theres no mention at all about what exactly powers HW ships in terms of Reactors or such...

Also The Bentusi are, odd... It's said they are merged with thier ships, but like, All of them? Bentusi ships are HUGE, even the realtivly 'small' trade ships, and Bentus itself ((seen in HW2)) is easily more then 7km long. That seems like an awful lot of space.

IIRC, homeworld ships run on ion engines, correct? And they don't use any known mass-lightening tech as well, right?

Given both, and that the masses are known.. if we know the accelerative capabilities of a given ship, we can determine its reactor output based on how much energy it takes to use the ion engines.

One way to determine acceleration is to measure how long it takes the ship to reach the maximum speed rating listend. OTOH, its generally less than a minute, so the acceel should be at least several m/s^2.

[Connor MacLeod]

Just as a temporary example:

according to my Cataclysm Manual, the Dreadnought masses 152,000 tons and a top "speed" of 280 m/s. Assuming it takes 1 minute to reach top speed, accel should be 4.7 m/s^2. Assuming ion engines accelerate their propellants to near c (a reasonable assumption, particularily given the low mass of the ships), we're probably talking a power output of arond e16-e17 watts, tops. (assuming my assumptiosn hold.)

Thats an upper limit on sustained firepower as well (as they cannot generate any more energy than that.) However, it could easily be much lower (the ships aren't propelled backwards when they fire, which may suggest that the recoil is insignificant, and thus lower the output significantly. Of course, they *may* use engines to comepnsate for recoil - but this is debatable because of the large fire arc the turret has - it can fire above and behind the ship without generating noticable recoil. OTOH at that level we might be seeing a firepower an order of magnitude or two less.. e15-16 watt range.. maybe e14 watt - for a single beam at least)

Still working on the frigate example, which should help establish a lower limit.

[Antares]

If the dreadnaught really has 152000 tons only it would be ridicules small.
Aircraft carriers today are already close to 100.000 tons.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/cvn-68.htm

Now we have a little contratiction. The Archangle is said to be at least one kilometer long but it only got a 1.5 times the mass of an aircraft carrier of today... something doenst work here.

And for the ramming calculation. It was just to give a very rough estimation.
There is no other thing in HW:C that could be used. No matter how powerfull a ship is, it will always take several alpha strikes to destroy a frigate, so this vapourization is out.

I have played a lot of HW:C and the only ships that can be considered vapourized are fighters (and probably corvettes) hit by ion cannons.
If those are hit by ion cannons thay blow up within a fraction of a second.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay.. I got tired of hunting around for more specific stats so I'm gonna use baseline iron as the composition for the ship (good enough for an low-end order of magntiude calc, which this will be since homeworld materials aren't using exotic bonding processes or stuff.)

according to Catacylsm, the most massive frigate (assault frigate) masses some 15,000 tons. (oddly enough, in the original homeworld, the mass figures are larger.. if they are in "tons" - which may not be the case, since no unit is given... multiply the above by 4, since the most massive frigate was 60,000 units.)

It takes bout 7.6 mJ/kg to vaporize iron (in a vaccuum, like in the TESB asteroid calcs.) at 15,000 tons (1.5e7 kg) = 1.14e14 joules low end (ignoring the effects of ablative armor, inefficiencies, etc.)

absolute minimum? 9.5e11 watts sustained firepower for a single destroyer (1.14e14 J divided by 60 seconds, divided by 2 destroyers.)

"upper end" minimum (1.14e14 joules divided by 2 seconds, ,divided by 2 destroyers) - 2.85e13 watts sustained firepower.

[Connor MacLeod]

If the dreadnaught really has 152000 tons only it would be ridicules small.
Aircraft carriers today are already close to 100.000 tons.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/cvn-68.htm

Now we have a little contratiction. The Archangle is said to be at least one kilometer long but it only got a 1.5 times the mass of an aircraft carrier of today... something doenst work here.

Who says its a contradiction? Given we know fuck-all about their construction methods and whatnot (including the internal volume/dimensions of the ships in question) we can't really say whether or not its off?

And your frigging carriers do not fly through fucking space either. You do realize that in space the more massive something is, the more thrust is required to move it right? It is entirely PRACTICAL to attempt to make your ships as light as possible for efficient thrust.

And for the ramming calculation. It was just to give a very rough estimation.

And its wildly inaccurate, due to aforementioned momentum issues. So nice try saying "its the only thing we can use."

There is no other thing in HW:C that could be used. No matter how powerfull a ship is, it will always take several alpha strikes to destroy a frigate, so this vapourization is out.

Based on what, game mechanics?

I have played a lot of HW:C and the only ships that can be considered vapourized are fighters (and probably corvettes) hit by ion cannons.
If those are hit by ion cannons thay blow up within a fraction of a second.

Except that you keep insisting the mass figures are off, so (by your definition) they're invalid. Congratulations, you just demolished the debate.

[Ra]

A little side bit: about your sig, Ra,


The Bentusi are supposed to be merged completely with their ships, right? Just trying to make sense of the quote.

I believe so. After one of the Cataclysm missions, the Bentusi explain that they are virtually at one with their ships, and can "hear hyperspace singing in their ears", or something like that. They called the Kushan the "Unbound" at first, mainly referring to Karen S'jet, who was integrated into the mothership computer.
The Bentusi saw the very nature of the Beast as an abomination, subverting and twisting thought and personality to suit its own goals, and utterly wrecking the harmony the Bentusi were so accustomed to. This frightened the ancient race so much that it tried to flee the galaxy.

[Ra]

Considering how the Skaal-Fa missile destroyer is equipped with fusion missiles, obviously so is the Archangel. The Archangel, as stated before, has 47 missiles in her magazine.
Taking into account the fact that fusion warheads would need a certain "critical mass" of plasma to even work, or perhaps some form of D-T mass ignited by compression-ignition, I expect there is a bare minimum to how much energy can be released; I would guess it's in the high kiloton range.
It usually takes a lot of work to create a fusion detonation, and if the yield isn't greater than a conventional fission nuke of the same size, why bother making it at all? Archangel missiles aren't exactly small, at least several times larger than a Starfleet photorp (purposely made the size of a coffin, because the modern photorp dates back to The Wrath of Khan), which would include a plasma magnetic bottle for the motor and guidance systems and such. The rest would probably be the thermonuclear warhead.

[Vanas]

About the reactors:
HW ships are powered by standard fusion reactors. In the original at least, the reasctors didn't seem to explode when the ship took critical damage (HW2 ones do though -.-), infact some frigates go up in a puff of smoke, which I'd assume is their crew sections losing integrity. Perhaps for exploding cap ships in HW, we should assume they've been crippled beyond repair adn are removed by the game, given the truly pathetic explosions of large ships.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Okay.. I got tired of hunting around for more specific stats so I'm gonna use baseline iron as the composition for the ship (good enough for an low-end order of magntiude calc, which this will be since homeworld materials aren't using exotic bonding processes or stuff.)

according to Catacylsm, the most massive frigate (assault frigate) masses some 15,000 tons. (oddly enough, in the original homeworld, the mass figures are larger.. if they are in "tons" - which may not be the case, since no unit is given... multiply the above by 4, since the most massive frigate was 60,000 units.)

It takes bout 7.6 mJ/kg to vaporize iron (in a vaccuum, like in the TESB asteroid calcs.) at 15,000 tons (1.5e7 kg) = 1.14e14 joules low end (ignoring the effects of ablative armor, inefficiencies, etc.)

absolute minimum? 9.5e11 watts sustained firepower for a single destroyer (1.14e14 J divided by 60 seconds, divided by 2 destroyers.)

"upper end" minimum (1.14e14 joules divided by 2 seconds, ,divided by 2 destroyers) - 2.85e13 watts sustained firepower.

Alright, so what is your conclusion? Can you convert those figures to explosive, just for the sake of this thread.