More on Terri Schiavo--UPDATE: Schiavo dead 31 Mar 05

[Aaron]

Wow. These people really are living in their own private fantasy land, and seem to actually have projected the delusion of their vegetable daughter attempting to talk to them. Its really quite amazing and disturbing.

Indeed. Usually you only see this kind of insanity with drunks and junkies. I wonder if someone's been slipping acid into their coffee for 15 years.

[Lord Zentei]

Wow. These people really are living in their own private fantasy land, and seem to actually have projected the delusion of their vegetable daughter attempting to talk to them. Its really quite amazing and disturbing.

Indeed. Usually you only see this kind of insanity with drunks and junkies. I wonder if someone's been slipping acid into their coffee for 15 years.

More likely it is bereavement and wishful thinking that has been allowed to fester for 15 years. Projection is not restricted to the Schiavos, alas.

[Durandal]

The point is that that argument is fucking stupid. The US is behind the curve because such bogus reasoning actually flies with politicians, and you're as stupid as the people protesting the removal of Terri's feeding tube if you think it's a valid argument.

How is "When in doubt, err on the side of caution" a stupid argument? Anyway as I have stated, the conditions and context are quite different in these cases, so the comparison between Terri and a foetus is irrelevant in any case, which was my argument.

The conditions are analogous. Opponents sew doubt in the largely irrelevant details and then apply the "When in doubt, err on the side of life" bullshit. Notice how everyone's been focusing on whether Terri can be rehabilitated (she can't be) as opposed to what her wishes were should she ever find herself in such a state, which is what the courts have been hearing arguments regarding.

[Lord Zentei]

How is "When in doubt, err on the side of caution" a stupid argument? Anyway as I have stated, the conditions and context are quite different in these cases, so the comparison between Terri and a foetus is irrelevant in any case, which was my argument.

The conditions are analogous. Opponents sew doubt in the largely irrelevant details and then apply the "When in doubt, err on the side of life" bullshit. Notice how everyone's been focusing on whether Terri can be rehabilitated (she can't be) as opposed to what her wishes were should she ever find herself in such a state, which is what the courts have been hearing arguments regarding.

I beg to differ. A foetus can grow a brain, Terri cannot. Terri has made her wishes known (give final authority to her husband) while a foetus has not.

Note that I am absolutely NOT defending the idiots who oppose the removal of her feeding tube, an action which I support, nor am I a supporter of fundie dishonesty with regards to sowing doubt in the irrelevant detailsl. I am only questioning the comparison of this case with the abortion issue.

[Durandal]

How is "When in doubt, err on the side of caution" a stupid argument? Anyway as I have stated, the conditions and context are quite different in these cases, so the comparison between Terri and a foetus is irrelevant in any case, which was my argument.

The conditions are analogous. Opponents sew doubt in the largely irrelevant details and then apply the "When in doubt, err on the side of life" bullshit. Notice how everyone's been focusing on whether Terri can be rehabilitated (she can't be) as opposed to what her wishes were should she ever find herself in such a state, which is what the courts have been hearing arguments regarding.

I beg to differ. A foetus can grow a brain, Terri cannot. Terri has made her wishes known (give final authority to her husband) while a foetus has not.

Completely irrelevant. The substance of the details is not in question with the analogy. The analogy regards how certain parties will argue a certain side, not whether or not the situations themselves are analogous.

[Lord Zentei]

I beg to differ. A foetus can grow a brain, Terri cannot. Terri has made her wishes known (give final authority to her husband) while a foetus has not.

Completely irrelevant. The substance of the details is not in question with the analogy. The analogy regards how certain parties will argue a certain side, not whether or not the situations themselves are analogous.

In that case we have no disagreement, and I have simply misread the analogy.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Doing a reverse Tommy J, are we?

Not at all, just pointing out the inevitable. If abortion is outlawed, just like what happend pre-Roe V. Wade abortions will still happen illegally and probably in similar numbers... only this time one potential human and 1 real human will die instead of just one potential human.

[Darth Wong]

How is "When in doubt, err on the side of caution" a stupid argument?

When there is no reasonable doubt.

[Lord Zentei]

Doing a reverse Tommy J, are we?

Not at all, just pointing out the inevitable. If abortion is outlawed, just like what happend pre-Roe V. Wade abortions will still happen illegally and probably in similar numbers... only this time one potential human and 1 real human will die instead of just one potential human.

The question of whether the foetus is a potential human or a real human is the crux of the issue.

If we argue from the premise that it is a real human as opposed to a potential one, it would be immoral to allow abortion, and claims that it will happen anyway are indeed a dodge. If we OTOH argue from the premise that a foetus is only a potential human there is no moral dilemma at all.

[Darth Wong]

The question of whether the foetus is a potential human or a real human is the crux of the issue.

Yes. Religious people have some completely fanciful definition of what constitutes a legitimate human being, based on their absurd superstition about the moment that a soul is inserted into or removed from the body. Everyone else recognizes that scientifically, the person is the mind, and the mind is irretrievably locked into the brain. No brain, no mind, no person.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Doing a reverse Tommy J, are we?

Not at all, just pointing out the inevitable. If abortion is outlawed, just like what happend pre-Roe V. Wade abortions will still happen illegally and probably in similar numbers... only this time one potential human and 1 real human will die instead of just one potential human.

The question of whether the foetus is a potential human or a real human is the crux of the issue.

If we argue from the premise that it is a real human as opposed to a potential one, it would be immoral to allow abortion, and claims that it will happen anyway are indeed a dodge. If we OTOH argue from the premise that a foetus is only a potential human there is no moral dilemma at all.

The issue is of course one of premises, however while assuming a fetus is a human being is an unsupported one, the later premise that a fetus is a potential human, based upon its cognitave ability and ability to survive outside the womb is supported.

[Lord Zentei]

Not at all, just pointing out the inevitable. If abortion is outlawed, just like what happend pre-Roe V. Wade abortions will still happen illegally and probably in similar numbers... only this time one potential human and 1 real human will die instead of just one potential human.

The question of whether the foetus is a potential human or a real human is the crux of the issue.

If we argue from the premise that it is a real human as opposed to a potential one, it would be immoral to allow abortion, and claims that it will happen anyway are indeed a dodge. If we OTOH argue from the premise that a foetus is only a potential human there is no moral dilemma at all.

The issue is of course one of premises, however while assuming a fetus is a human being is an unsupported one, the later premise that a fetus is a potential human, based upon its cognitave ability and ability to survive outside the womb is supported.

And your rebuttal to my point that IF the foetus is a true human then using the argument that "it will happen anyway" in support for the pro choice crowd is morally indefensible?

[LadyTevar]

Warning: Rantage.


Look you fucking stupid bitch, let your daughter's body DIE already! You're not the only fucking people in this world who had to let a loved one go, and if I can let my dad, who had a stroke to the fucking BRAIN STEM go, you can finally let let this shit end.


The shitty thing? Dad might have come out of his coma. M I G H T. Eventually. But because of the damage to his brain stem, he'd have never breathed on his own, never been able to swallow food, and always need something to keep his heart beating. Even if he woke from the coma, he'd have never gotten out of that bed ever again. So, we pulled the plug, and he was dead within 5 minutes.

So, stop your whining and let your fucking daughter with her missing brain go. My DAD with his damaged brain stem was more alive that that husk that you call your daughter, it's just you're too fucking blind and stupid to see it!



I need more violent smilies.

[The Yosemite Bear]

given the board Tev. I would suggest a "Commence Primary Ignition" smilie

[LadyTevar]

given the board Tev. I would suggest a "Commence Primary Ignition" smilie

Let them come. I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit. My dad had more of a brain left than she does. Maybe if he'd not have been in a coma at the time it might have been harder, but dammit, why make a complete fucking federal drama out of it?

How long until the first bookrights are sold... which network will have the first "Terri's Story" Real-Life Drama? Just let the empty-headed bitch DIE already!

[The Yosemite Bear]

from one of the most politicaly incorrect webcomics out there

FLEM

[Montcalm]

That is a major political incorrectness,btw i see some of the morons on CNN with their cardboard written *Terri is not brain dead*

[Aaron]

That is a major political incorrectness,btw i see some of the morons on CNN with their cardboard written *Terri is not brain dead*

This will never die, the religious reich will make a martyr of her. And every anniversary of her death they'll have a vigil and remind us of Terri, killed by the government.

Just let her die in piece and respect her husband enough to leave him and the hospice alone.

[The Yosemite Bear]

That is a major political incorrectness,btw i see some of the morons on CNN with their cardboard written *Terri is not brain dead*

Joys of being the monkey mod, I asked the loyal monkeys to bring me back the most politically incorrect webcomics and they did.

of course that was back when I was a supermod

[LadyTevar]

That is a major political incorrectness,btw i see some of the morons on CNN with their cardboard written *Terri is not brain dead*

This will never die, the religious reich will make a martyr of her. And every anniversary of her death they'll have a vigil and remind us of Terri, killed by the government.

Just let her die in piece and respect her husband enough to leave him and the hospice alone.

If you really want her to 'die peacefully' slip her some morphine or something, sheesh.

[Aaron]

If you really want her to 'die peacefully' slip her some morphine or something, sheesh.

Do that and I bet the wackos would create a graven image of her and parade it through town square. I really don't see why they latched onto this case, it happens every day across the world. Whats so special about her? Is it because she was Roman Catholic?

[LadyTevar]

If you really want her to 'die peacefully' slip her some morphine or something, sheesh.

Do that and I bet the wackos would create a graven image of her and parade it through town square. I really don't see why they latched onto this case, it happens every day across the world. Whats so special about her? Is it because she was Roman Catholic?

Possibly. Possibly the whole situation... "Struck down in the prime of life", still physically alive, seemingly aware, etc, ad nauseum.

[Macross]

That is a major political incorrectness,btw i see some of the morons on CNN with their cardboard written *Terri is not brain dead*

This will never die, the religious reich will make a martyr of her. And every anniversary of her death they'll have a vigil and remind us of Terri, killed by the government.

Just let her die in piece and respect her husband enough to leave him and the hospice alone.

If you really want her to 'die peacefully' slip her some morphine or something, sheesh.

They did give her some morphine, and were accused of trying to "speed the process along." No matter what they do, people will complain.

It was just released today that their will be an autopsy performed once she dies. Hopefully this will put to rest the claims that the husband was abusive and tried to kill her, and show the real extent of the deterioration of her brain.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The question of whether the foetus is a potential human or a real human is the crux of the issue.

If we argue from the premise that it is a real human as opposed to a potential one, it would be immoral to allow abortion, and claims that it will happen anyway are indeed a dodge. If we OTOH argue from the premise that a foetus is only a potential human there is no moral dilemma at all.

The issue is of course one of premises, however while assuming a fetus is a human being is an unsupported one, the later premise that a fetus is a potential human, based upon its cognitave ability and ability to survive outside the womb is supported.

And your rebuttal to my point that IF the foetus is a true human then using the argument that "it will happen anyway" in support for the pro choice crowd is morally indefensible?

Not necessarily. It would depend on the circumstances, socioeconomic factors etc. Though one could also make a utilitarian calculation based upon the idea that the least amount of suffering is preferable(though I would not go so far as to make that calculation, all other things being equal in suburbia... )

[Aaron]

They did give her some morphine, and were accused of trying to "speed the process along." No matter what they do, people will complain.

It was just released today that their will be an autopsy performed once she dies. Hopefully this will put to rest the claims that the husband was abusive and tried to kill her, and show the real extent of the deterioration of her brain.

That craps already been discredited by her doctors though. But it should prove his innocence for good.