More on Terri Schiavo--UPDATE: Schiavo dead 31 Mar 05

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-03-25 08:37pm

MKSheppard wrote:Got a question for you all.

Don't you think that they should order a MRI/CAT/PET of Terri's brain
before making this kind of decision to end her life, so we can be absolutely
sure that she IS a vegetable with no chances of recovery before we
give her an overdose of morphine?

It simply wouldn't do any good. All the most recent CAT scans have shown clearly that the cereberum and cerebellum are gone. There's nothing but cerebrospinal fluid filling the space where her brain was and there is simply no chance of any recovery. No tests beyond what have already been performed will show any different result.

To put it plainly, there is no more Terri Schiavo and hasn't been for years. All that's left is an empty shell running entirely off its brain-stem.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2005-03-25 10:13pm

Isn't it funny how her claimed interactive behaviors ONLY happen in front of her family members and people directly in their employ (like the family attorney)? Even Jeb's sockpuppet, er, neurologist had to admit in his deposition that she displayed no behaviors that were incompatible with the PVS diagnosis. You would think that if she really had a mind in there that she would be screaming out to anybody who came into the same room with her, including media types and other assorteds.

But no, Schiavo's parents are the only people SPECIAL enough to see that their precious little butterfly is flittering around and tomorrow she'll leap up out of her chair (or would, if her body weren't in the process of shutting down).

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-25 11:31pm

he Bush Crime Family

MUAHAHAHAHA- fellow Mike Malloy listener perhaps?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-03-25 11:43pm

One interesting note,

CBC News wrote:Schindler supporters are pleading with the governor to take custody of Terri despite the court rulings, even if it throws the state into a constitutional crisis.

So, can the governor march national guardsmen into the hospice and force the feeding tube to be reinstated? If he can, then what happens if he does, and what are the chances of him doing so?

Brian

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-03-25 11:44pm

Vympel wrote:
he Bush Crime Family
MUAHAHAHAHA- fellow Mike Malloy listener perhaps?

I was on the show the other night, discussing Thomas Mann, "hypocracy" and Jabba the Rush.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2005-03-25 11:45pm

brianeyci wrote:One interesting note,

CBC News wrote:Schindler supporters are pleading with the governor to take custody of Terri despite the court rulings, even if it throws the state into a constitutional crisis.
So, can the governor march national guardsmen into the hospice and force the feeding tube to be reinstated? If he can, then what happens if he does, and what are the chances of him doing so?

Brian

I think the VRWC took Jeb aside and informed him it would be Very Bad to interfere further, given the general public disapproval for the issue.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-25 11:46pm

I was on the show the other night, discussing Thomas Mann, "hypocracy" and Jabba the Rush.

Don't know if you know about this, but whiterosesociety.org has an archive of his shows since before he moved to Air America Radio and all of them since after. God he's hilarious. We need angry liberal radio assholes!

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-03-25 11:46pm

If he can, then what happens if he does, and what are the chances of him doing so?

Precisely dick. The odds are much more likely some looney would try to shoot his way in and "save" Schiavo. How he'd get a nearly-deceased sack of flesh out of the hospice would be the trouble.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-03-25 11:55pm

brianeyci wrote:One interesting note,

CBC News wrote:Schindler supporters are pleading with the governor to take custody of Terri despite the court rulings, even if it throws the state into a constitutional crisis.
So, can the governor march national guardsmen into the hospice and force the feeding tube to be reinstated? If he can, then what happens if he does, and what are the chances of him doing so?

Brian

No. By law, governors can only deploy the Guard if the federal government gives permission. But then again, since when has the rule of law stopped the Bush junta? He might try to send in state troopers like the cracker governors of old (Faubus, Barnett and Wallace), but if he does that, he could risk getting busted by federal marshalls (slim chance), defied by the troopers who don't want to violate a federal court verdict (larger chance) or put his brother in the position of condoning an act of sedition. I was worried at first, but if Jeb Bush didn't snatch the corpse by now, he never will.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-03-26 12:37am

brianeyci wrote:One interesting note,

CBC News wrote:Schindler supporters are pleading with the governor to take custody of Terri despite the court rulings, even if it throws the state into a constitutional crisis.
So, can the governor march national guardsmen into the hospice and force the feeding tube to be reinstated? If he can, then what happens if he does, and what are the chances of him doing so?

Brian

If it happened and federal troops DIDNt restore order with force and stop the blatant consititutional violations, our entire legal system is meaningless and we are nothing more than a dictatorship which pays lip service to freedom

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2005-03-26 12:49am

They can't do an MRI because she apparently has some experimental electrodes in her head. They would have to be removed first.

Anyways, me and another guy are debating one of those "She can be rehabilitated!!!!" palmfuckers at another forum. I've had to point out to him twice that most of her brain is liquid. I'm looking for sources now.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2005-03-26 01:49am

Aya wrote:They can't do an MRI because she apparently has some experimental electrodes in her head. They would have to be removed first.

Anyways, me and another guy are debating one of those "She can be rehabilitated!!!!" palmfuckers at another forum. I've had to point out to him twice that most of her brain is liquid. I'm looking for sources now.

The X-ray of her skull seems to silence most.

You'd be surprised how many people seem to think that Mike Schiavo is in it for the money.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-03-26 02:00am

Gandalf wrote: You'd be surprised how many people seem to think that Mike Schiavo is in it for the money.

Well, duh. How could he love her if he's with another woman and trying to kill her?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2005-03-26 02:00am

Her brain isn't "liquified", its fluid-filled. She's got the brain of a doddering 75 year-old, not a tomato.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-03-26 02:04am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Her brain isn't "liquified", its fluid-filled. She's got the brain of a doddering 75 year-old, not a tomato.

Even a doddering 75-year old has more function than what Terri Schiavo is capable of.

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2005-03-26 02:11am

A doddering 75 year-old implies that she still has some higher brain fuctions, is conscious and somewhat area of her surrounding. Mrs. Schiavo clearly exhibits none of those. And liquified is a rather correct term, as when cells undergo necrosis, the cells die and undergo a series of morphological phases and end up as a puss like substance, aka mush. Over an extended period of time, it ends breaks down even further into a very fluid like substance. That's my understanding of it.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2005-03-26 02:32am

link from here

Don't know how correct the doctor is, but I saw this part:

First of all, the University of Miami's appellation for this scan is inaccurate. "Cortical regions" are not and can not be filled with spinal fluid. The sulci (spaces between cortical ribbons) are enlarged secondary to cortical atrophy and these sulci are filled with cerbrospinal fluid.

The most alarming thing about this image, however, is that there certainly is cortex left. Granted, it is severely thinned, especially for Terri's age, but I would be nonplussed if you told me that this was a 75 year old female who was somewhat senile but fully functional, and I defy a radiologist anywhere to contest that.

I HAVE SEEN MANY WALKING, TALKING, FAIRLY COHERENT PEOPLE WITH WORSE CEREBRAL/CORTICAL ATROPHY. THEREFORE, THIS IS IN NO WAY PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE THAT TERRI SCHIAVO'S MENTAL ABILITIES OR/OR CAPABILITIES ARE COMPLETELY ERADICATED. I CANNOT BELIEVE SUCH TESTIMONY HAS BEEN GIVEN ON THE BASIS OF THIS SCAN.

The worrisome, no alarming thing, for me, was that I heard a bioethicist and several important figures on the major media describe Terri's brain as MUCH WORSE. One "expert" said that she had a "bag of water" in her head. Several experts described her as a "brain stem preparation"

These statements are wholly inaccurate. This is an atrophied brain, yes, but there is cortex remaining, and where there's cortex (?life) there's hope.

If you starve this woman to death it would be, in my professional and experienced medical opinion, the equivalent of starving to death a 75-85 year old person. I would take that to the witness stand.

He's a doctor talking as he's looking at her MRIs or whatever.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-03-26 02:37am

Let's see that bloggers credentials.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2005-03-26 02:47am

Yes, let's see the credentials he's listed on his blog. Seriously, though, he seems to be internet medicine's "Mike Wong", taking on hacks and quack doctors online.

Being not a doctor, I await for someone with medical expertise to rule on this.

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2005-03-26 02:55am

That doctor is a radiologist, not a neurologist. His expertise isn't the central nervous system and disorders associated with it. He might know a thing or two about how to treat cancers, but he lacks the finer points when it comes to the brain.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-03-26 03:28am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:link from here

Don't know how correct the doctor is, but I saw this part:
First of all, the University of Miami's appellation for this scan is inaccurate. "Cortical regions" are not and can not be filled with spinal fluid. The sulci (spaces between cortical ribbons) are enlarged secondary to cortical atrophy and these sulci are filled with cerbrospinal fluid.

The most alarming thing about this image, however, is that there certainly is cortex left. Granted, it is severely thinned, especially for Terri's age, but I would be nonplussed if you told me that this was a 75 year old female who was somewhat senile but fully functional, and I defy a radiologist anywhere to contest that.

I HAVE SEEN MANY WALKING, TALKING, FAIRLY COHERENT PEOPLE WITH WORSE CEREBRAL/CORTICAL ATROPHY. THEREFORE, THIS IS IN NO WAY PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE THAT TERRI SCHIAVO'S MENTAL ABILITIES OR/OR CAPABILITIES ARE COMPLETELY ERADICATED. I CANNOT BELIEVE SUCH TESTIMONY HAS BEEN GIVEN ON THE BASIS OF THIS SCAN.

The worrisome, no alarming thing, for me, was that I heard a bioethicist and several important figures on the major media describe Terri's brain as MUCH WORSE. One "expert" said that she had a "bag of water" in her head. Several experts described her as a "brain stem preparation"

These statements are wholly inaccurate. This is an atrophied brain, yes, but there is cortex remaining, and where there's cortex (?life) there's hope.

If you starve this woman to death it would be, in my professional and experienced medical opinion, the equivalent of starving to death a 75-85 year old person. I would take that to the witness stand.
He's a doctor talking as he's looking at her MRIs or whatever.

Um, ahem:

This scan is of the brain of an Alzheimer's patient ( Linky )

And this scan is of Terri Schiavo's cerebral cavity ( Linky )

Clearly the above scan shows more brain-matter in an Alzheimer's patient than what is seen in the film of Terri Schiavo's skull.

If you starve this woman to death it would be, in my professional and experienced medical opinion, the equivalent of starving to death a 75-85 year old person. I would take that to the witness stand.

And he'd be laughed off the stand the moment any comparison film of an actual Alzheimer's patient was shown next to a CT scan of Schiavo's skull.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2005-03-26 04:14am

Hahaha! Fox just reported that Bush's approval rating dropped seven points because of this bullshit.

Post by **Edi** » 2005-03-26 04:17am

A very good summary of the case so far, minus all the circus:

Linky

It has a comparison CT scan of a normal brain vs Terri's, and addresses everything else in a neat, easily understandable package. It's like dropping a couple thousand tons of bricks on the Schindler side of the argument.

And yes, the electrodes in Terri's brain prevent performing an MRI, because they would be the effective equivalent of blender blades going at full blast if subjected to the magnetic fields used in MRI scans.

Edi

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2005-03-26 04:54am

Forget about whether she can be rehabilitated. Forget if she has mush for brain or the potential for recovery. Forget the husband's alleged misdeeds or his faithlessness. Forget about burden on society and all that. None of the above matters. What matters is that Terri never left behind a written statement that would compel people to pull the plug on her.

The state should have stayed out of it. The courts should have stayed out of it too. Terri has commited no crime, yet she is sentenced to a fate we would not wish on our worst criminals and terrorists: death by starvation. The politicians and the judges are playing tennis, trying to increase their power over the other party, and the only losers are the people. If Congress is trying to extend their power into the courts, it can also be argued that the courts have been extending their power into the lives of people for some time already.

The law should be changed here. If the afflicted in question has left no written will on euthanasia, instead of granting custody automatically to a nearest spouse(husband), the responsiblity for taking care of him/her should devolve down. If the husband wants to give up the responsibility, the next concerned party steps in. And so on.

If there is even a single person in the whole wide world willing to devote finances, time, love, and tears on another human being in this condition, then what right do we have to stop the good samaritan/s? Easy, we don't. We let them do their works.

I'm not religious here, being an agnostic, but my personal philosophy and the principles I live by convince me that saving an innocent life is not wrong. I don't need religion to tell me that. It may be silly, it may be stupid, even, but it'll be an individual's choice.

What's interesting is that the right and left both are split down the middle by this issue. There are right wingers arguing that the Florida court decision should be abided by, and that the federal powers have no business butting in. Then there are those on the left who support Terri's right to live, like Nader, and would support any decision by the federal powers to keep her alive. The Belmont Club had a very good post on this.
http://www.wretchard.com/blogs/the_belm ... hiavo.aspx

The world is turned upside down because of this issue, and I think it is all the better for it. These are fundamental questions about the nature of modern society, civilization, the basis for law and government, and they should be answered.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2005-03-26 05:19am

That whole "Omgz, he's got another woman! He is teh unfaithful hun!!!11one!!!" Bullshit annoys me. Show me one married man who will go 15 years without sex and I'll show you a mule that can eat lead and crap gold.