More on Terri Schiavo--UPDATE: Schiavo dead 31 Mar 05

[Firefox]

I wouldn't seriously suggest it, either. Given the original brain's gone, Terri's gone by extension. I'm simply curious whether anyone has tried broaching the argument due to ignorance of the subject. I haven't heard any efforts so far, fortunately.

[Medicus]

I have to throw a comment in here....by medical personal who work daily with dying patients (hopisce, oncology) I have been told consistenly that starving is an EXTREMELY humane way to die. It is not cruel whatsovever. In fact one of the greatest misconceptions/fears about dying is the pain associated with starvation, which has been shown to be extremely minimal. Hunger if present at all, does not last an extended period. Infact, most people going through the last few days of life have no appetite what so ever.

A second point, according to medical code of ethics there is no ethical difference between withdrawing life support and not starting it at all, so the idea that once you've started it you need to continue is false.

[Frank Hipper]

Don't people know that many, many people starve to death every day in hospitals and hospices in this country?

My grandmother "starved to death" do to advanced alzheimer's, as do almost all advanced cases every day. She was so far gone that swallowing was impossible.
How the fuck do people think Ronald Reagan died, for fuck's sake?
Where's the goon squads demanding an accounting from Nancy Reagan?

My father had to have fluids and nutrition removed back in August due to his body being unable to process them as a consequence of cancer. The fact that he couldn't tolerate nutrition and water does not mean that he, too, did not starve to death.
No autopsy was performed, so it's meaningless to speculate (nitpick) over whether it was starvation or cancer that killed him, but one way or the other, neither he nor my grandmother were aware of who they were, or where they were, much less that they were "being starved to death".

Let me assure you, when a person is as far gone as this, removing the feeding tube is mercy.
Would someone prefer that she get a bedsore and die of a raging infection like most vegetative patients die?

[Jadeite]

And as I type they are reporting on CBS4 Boston that the Judge ruled against reinsertion of the feeding tube.

Quickley, my personal stance on this:

I think that starving her is somewhat cruel. If they are going to let her die/kill her, why not just euphanize her instead of starving and dehydrating her to death? We kill animals when they are in pain, but can't do the same for people?

That's because it's illegal for them to, thanks to conservative governments.

[Patrick Degan]

I wouldn't seriously suggest it, either. Given the original brain's gone, Terri's gone by extension. I'm simply curious whether anyone has tried broaching the argument due to ignorance of the subject. I haven't heard any efforts so far, fortunately.

Don't be so certain that they wouldn't. If anybody would essentially toss their opposition to stem-cell research aside on the hope that it would regrow Terri Schiavo's brain to enable full recovery, they'd be banking on the idea that her "soul" exists as some sort of ghost awaiting a new brain to inhabit or some such nonsense.

[Iceberg]

Oh what a tangled web we weave... apparently, the Schindlers' doctors (the ones they called as expert witnesses) break down as follows:

1: The first, Dr. Maxfield is not a neurologist at all but a radiologist. Unsurprisingly, his statements regarding Ms. Schiavo are not particularly quantitative, limited to more or less saying the same things her layperson parents have said. However...

2: The second, Dr. Hammesfahr, is decidedly a quack. The demonstrative tests showed an astonishingly low standard of what a "hit" was - in my own opinion (having seen the video, which is one of the most depressing things I've ever seen, making Requiem for a Dream seem downright uplifting by comparison), his standards would make your average "psychic researcher" blush for their sheer audacity.

So a doctor testifying out of his specialty, and a quack, are supposed to override three qualified neurologists. In what poker world, exactly, does a deuce and a joker beat three of a kind?

[The Dark]

So a doctor testifying out of his specialty, and a quack, are supposed to override three qualified neurologists. In what poker world, exactly, does a deuce and a joker beat three of a kind?

When House deals.

On the starvation thing, I was the first one (AFAIK) to mention that it's consider humane. This was told to me by a hospice nurse with 35 years of experience, that the removal of food is a natural part of death and is not starvation as we think of it. Actually, the body would die first of a heart attack caused by an electrolyte imbalance due to lack of fluid. Thus, the body does not starve to death, they have a heart attack. Those suggesting she will actually "starve" as we think of it are incorrect in how death occurs in these cases.

[RedImperator]

Oh what a tangled web we weave... apparently, the Schindlers' doctors (the ones they called as expert witnesses) break down as follows:

1: The first, Dr. Maxfield is not a neurologist at all but a radiologist. Unsurprisingly, his statements regarding Ms. Schiavo are not particularly quantitative, limited to more or less saying the same things her layperson parents have said. However...

2: The second, Dr. Hammesfahr, is decidedly a quack. The demonstrative tests showed an astonishingly low standard of what a "hit" was - in my own opinion (having seen the video, which is one of the most depressing things I've ever seen, making Requiem for a Dream seem downright uplifting by comparison), his standards would make your average "psychic researcher" blush for their sheer audacity.

So a doctor testifying out of his specialty, and a quack, are supposed to override three qualified neurologists. In what poker world, exactly, does a deuce and a joker beat three of a kind?

Oh that's too good. I know you're involved with the Wikipedia article on this case; be sure to rub that in that yahoo NCDave's face, assuming you haven't alredy.

[Vympel]

The legal basis for the latest decision:

Schiavo Thoughts: Judge Whittemore's Order Explained
I previously posted Judge Whittemore's order, and it's here.

In short, the order concludes that the Schindlers have identified no violation of Terri's constitutional rights. For those looking for more information, here's my extended summary:

Judge Whittemore observed that the Schindlers are seeking a temporary injunction -- one mandating the reinsertion of the feeding tube. There are several requirements that must be met to obtain a temporary injunction. The court found the requirements applicable here to be met except the most important one: a showing of a substantial case on the merits of the Schindlers' claims. In other words, this comes down to whether the Schindlers' arguments have any merit.

Judge Whittemore individually examined the five claims asserted in the complaint the Schindlers filed yesterday. You can read that complaint here.

Count I of the complaint alleges that Terri was denied due process when Judge Greer made the decision, following a trial, on what Terri would want. Judge Whittemore found no due process violation. He ruled:


Plaintiffs' argument effectively ignores the role of the presiding judge as judicial fact-finder and decision-maker under the Florida statutory scheme. By fulfilling his statutory judicial responsibilities, the judge was not transformed into an advocate merely because his rulings are unfavorable to a litigant. Plaintiffs' contention that the statutory scheme followed by Judge Greer deprived Theresa Schiavo of an impartial trial is accordingly without merit. Defendant is correct that no federal constitutional right is implicated when a judge merely grants relief to a litigant in accordance with the law he is sworn to uphold and follow.

Count II of the complaint alleges that Terri was denied due process when Judge Greer failed to appoint a guardian ad litem or an "independent" attorney for Terri and failed to meet Terri in person. Judge Whittemore found due process (including Florida's statutes) did not require the trial judge to meet Terri and that a guardian ad litem was appointed and testified at the trial on Terri's wishes. Regarding the lack of an attorney just for Terri, Judge Whittemore found:


Throughout the proceedings, the parties, represented by able counsel, advanced what they believed to be Theresa Schiavo's intentions concerning artificial life support. In Florida, counsel for Michael Schiavo as Theresa Schiavo's guardian owed a duty of care to Theresa Schiavo in his representation. Finally, with respect to presenting the opposing perspective on Theresa Schiavo's wishes, the Court cannot envision more effective advocates than her parents and their able counsel. Plaintiffs have not shown how an additional lawyer appointed by the court could have reduced the risk of erroneous rulings....

[T]he court concludes that Theresa Schiavo's life and liberty interests were adequately protected by the extensive process provided in the state courts. Defendant Michael Schiavo and Plaintiffs, assisted by counsel, thoroughly advocated their competing perspectives on Theresa Schiavo's wishes. Another lawyer appointed by the court could not have offered more protection of Theresa Schiavo's interests.
Count III of the complaint alleged that Terri was denied her right to equal protection because only incapacitated persons have their rights determined by someone else, whereas different procedures are utilized where a competent person can make a decision for himself or herself. Judge Whittemore found this claim to be without merit for the same reasons discussed regarding count I and based on the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Cruzan v. Missouri, where the supreme court explained that these situations are different and states can treat them differently.

Counts IV and V of the complaint alleged that Terri's rights to religious freedom were denied because the removal of a feeding tube is supposedly contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church, and Terri is Catholic. Judge Whittemore concluded that a state court judge's adjudication of a person's wishes is not a burden by the government on the person's religious beliefs, and that Michael Schiavo and the hospice cannot be sued here because they are not government actors. The law in this area addresses religious burdens imposed by governments.

These rulings appear to be decisions on the merits of the Schindlers' complaint, not just preliminary views that the Schindlers may not be able to prove their claims.

Once again, Judge Greer's decisions -- and the procedures required by Florida's statutes and Florida's judiciary -- have been upheld. Once again.

Expect a lightning fast appeal to the Eleventh Circuit. And a very quick response.

From Abstract Appeal. As always, the Schindler Ghouls case has no merit.

[Iceberg]

It seems rather ridiculous to me that the Schindlers were arguing that Ms. Schiavo needed her own lawyer, which we all know really translates to them getting another lawyer to beat Mr. Schiavo over the head with.

[Firefox]

In case anyone's still interested or hasn't seen it yet, here's the CT scan of Terri's brain:

+http://jtrun.mine.nu/cc/fox/catscan8cg.jpg

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oh what a tangled web we weave... apparently, the Schindlers' doctors (the ones they called as expert witnesses) break down as follows:

1: The first, Dr. Maxfield is not a neurologist at all but a radiologist. Unsurprisingly, his statements regarding Ms. Schiavo are not particularly quantitative, limited to more or less saying the same things her layperson parents have said. However...

2: The second, Dr. Hammesfahr, is decidedly a quack. The demonstrative tests showed an astonishingly low standard of what a "hit" was - in my own opinion (having seen the video, which is one of the most depressing things I've ever seen, making Requiem for a Dream seem downright uplifting by comparison), his standards would make your average "psychic researcher" blush for their sheer audacity.

So a doctor testifying out of his specialty, and a quack, are supposed to override three qualified neurologists. In what poker world, exactly, does a deuce and a joker beat three of a kind?

Oh that's too good. I know you're involved with the Wikipedia article on this case; be sure to rub that in that yahoo NCDave's face, assuming you haven't alredy.

Heh. I know Dr. Hammesfahr personally. He is indeed a quack. He is suspected at the hospital of having accepted some private gifts or money from the Schindlers and he's universally derided as unprofessional and a charlatan by the doctors here for the testimony he gave.

[HemlockGrey]

So if the 11th rejects them what course of action is next on the Schindler's List? Or is it all over?

[DPDarkPrimus]

So if the 11th rejects them what course of action is next on the Schindler's List? Or is it all over?

Speaking of which...

A three-judge panel at the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta received the case hours after U.S. District Judge James Whittemore in Tampa, Florida, refused the request of parents Bob and Mary Schindler to reinsert the tube.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/22/schiavo/index.html

[HemlockGrey]

Jon Stewart did make a good point about this.

"Well, at least we know how sick you have to be before Congress acts to improve your health care. You know that diabetes and asthma your kid has? ...fuck 'em."

[18-Till-I-Die]

Now here is rediculous hypocracy for you...

This woman in Texas--a poor, Black woman--has a child that required life support to live. Because the doctors decdied it was 'too much', THEY gave the order to pull the plug based on a bill that then govenor Dubya pushed into being whereby Texas doctors can make that decision alone, and the baby, whose name was Hudson, died.

Now Terri Schiavo--a rich, White woman--who is in a vegitative state gets his full attention and he urges we 'lean towards the side of life'. So where was this generosity when Hudson was dying? Where was the side of life then?

I wonder how much Bush would care if Terri Schiavo was named Terri Jackson?

And everyone will say i'm being to sensitive about this point but really ask yourself, how many people would care if Terri Jackson from Harlem was in this situation?

[Vympel]

So if the 11th rejects them what course of action is next on the Schindler's List? Or is it all over?

They'll go to the Supreme Court, which will either refuse to hear the case or will reaffirm the findings of every single previous decision.

Look at this crap:

Bobby Schindler, Terri Schiavo's brother, told CNN in a phone interview from Washington, D.C., that his family was "just shocked" at the decision.

"I don't understand how the judge can predetermine our success," he said, adding that his family remained hopeful.

Because he's a fucking Judge and thats his fucking job, you ignorant ... ack.

[RedImperator]

And the 11th Circuit tells the ghouls where to go and how to get there.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/11209309.htm

TAMPA - A federal appeals court early this morning dealt another crushing blow to the parents of Terry Schiavo, refusing to reverse a lower court and order their brain-damaged daughter reconnected to a feeding tube.

On the brink of her sixth day without food and water, the 41-year-old Schiavo was said to be weakening in her hospice bed.

With time running out and their legal options narrowing, the parents' attorney said he would take the case to the U.S. Supreme Court, which in the past has tended not to get involved in such matters.

The U.S. 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta ruled that the parents -- and the Bush administration, which filed a motion on their behalf -- ''failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims.'' The three-member appeals panel also called the lower court's decision not to intervene proper and ``carefully thought out.''

The vote was 2-1, with Judges Frank Hall and Ed Carnes voting against the parents and Judge Charles Wilson voting for them. The decision was released around 2:30 a.m., an indication of the urgency surrounding this case.

''There is no denying the absolute tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo,'' the majority opinion said. ``We all have our own family, our own loved ones, and our own children. However, we are called upon to make a collective, objective decision concerning a question of law.

injunctions . . . must be applied to her case.''

In his dissent, Wilson said Schiavo's ''imminent'' death would end the case before it could be fully considered.

The denial 'frustrates Congress' intent,'' he wrote in a lengthy dissent, ``which is to maintain the status quo by keeping Schiavo alive until the federal courts have had a new and adequate opportunity to consider the constitutional issues raised by the plaintiffs . . ..

''In fact, I fail to see any harm in reinserting the feeding tube,'' he wrote.

Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, said they would take the case to the Supreme Court. ''The Schindlers will be filing an appropriate appeal to save their daughter's life,'' he said.

At the Hospice House Woodside, where Schiavo resides, supporters of the parents expressed profound disappointment and frustration.

''I don't believe in killing innocent citizens,'' said Tina Lawless. ``I think it is un-American and unholy and it's barbaric. '

On Tuesday, the language employed during frantic legal maneuvering by her parents and the Justice Department on one side and her husband on the other side grew more stark and ominous.

''Time is of the essence,'' lawyer David Gibbs III wrote in the parents' petition to the appeals court. ``Terri is fading quickly and her parents reasonably fear that her death is imminent.''

He said the court would be unable to fully review the case unless it orders the tube reconnected for the ``simple reason that Terri may die at any time. If that happens, the appeal will become moot.''

The Justice Department filed a motion with the court in support of the Schindlers. It said the feeding tube ''is plainly warranted here'' because Schiavo is so close to death.

Doctors say organ failure could begin within days and she is likely to die by the end of next week unless nutrition is restored.

Schiavo has been on life support for most of the past 15 years.

Her husband, Michael Schiavo, says she is in a persistent vegetative state and should be allowed to die; her parents say she is responsive and should be allowed to live.

Michael Schiavo's lawyers told the appeals court that she will not suffer physical harm until today or Thursday. That, they said, left enough time for the court to act on the merits of the case without ordering the tube reconnected.

Their motion included a long, detailed description of the surgery required to reinsert the feeding tube. Schiavo has been without food and water since 1:45 p.m. Friday.

''Reinstituting artificially provided hydration or nutrition, even on a temporary basis, would force Mrs. Schiavo, once cessation reoccurs, to commence her death process again from the beginning,'' wrote George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney.

Earlier Tuesday, U.S. District Judge James Whittemore of Tampa ruled in favor of the husband and refused to order the tube reconnected.

He said the case had been fully and properly aired in state court. He also raised a yellow flag about the constitutionality of the bill Congress rushed into passage over the weekend giving the parents access to federal court.

''Theresa Schiavo's life and liberty interests were adequately protected by the extensive process provided in the state courts,'' Whittemore wrote in the 12-page decision that triggered the appeal by the Schindlers.

But in their appeal, the Schindlers said Whittemore was required to conduct a full trial, hearing all the evidence in her case, and they said he did not. Now, they said, a trial would become meaningless if she is allowed to die.

''If she is allowed to die before her claims can be heard, [the congressional law] was an exercise in futility,'' Gibbs said in court papers.

The parents also challenged the validity of seven years of litigation in Pinellas County Probate Court before Judge George Greer. At one point, the filing refers to one of Greer's rulings as a ``death order.''

With prospects uncertain in court and as a degree of desperation set in, Mary Schindler renewed her pleas Tuesday evening to the Florida Legislature.

''I understand that we only need one vote in the state Senate to save my daughter,'' she said as she stood outside Schiavo's hospice. ``Please senators, for the love of God, I'm begging you, please, don't let my daughter die of thirst.''

Observers in Tallahassee said a bill that could help the Schindlers did not seem likely, though the parents' supporters were working in that direction.

The case involves a federal lawsuit filed by the Schindlers before dawn on Monday, a few hours after Congress passed and President Bush signed the special bill.

They say her constitutional rights have been denied by the removal of her feeding tube and the alleged absence of a lawyer representing her interests.

Whittemore, the judge in Tampa, rejected that view.

Lawyers for all sides, he said, ``thoroughly advocated their competing perspectives on Theresa Schiavo's wishes. Another lawyer appointed by the court could not have offered more protection of Theresa Schiavo's interests. Accordingly, the plaintiffs have not established a likelihood of success on the merits.''

He said ''there may be substantial issues concerning the constitutionality of the act'' passed by Congress.

Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler, expressed deep disappointment with the decision.

''I'm on pins and needles right now,'' he said. ``You know how when you get nervous your stomach starts to hurt? I feel like I have a stomachache all the time.

``One minute we're getting good news and the next minute we're getting bad news. It's a constant roller-coaster ride of emotions.''

Though Michael Schiavo did not comment, his brother told The Associated Press that the ruling was ``a good thing.''

''There's not a law that's made for this,'' Scott Schiavo said. ``This is something that goes on 100 times a day in our country -- that people, their wish to die with dignity, is not a federal issue.''

Outside Hospice House Woodside, where Schiavo resides, Brother Paul O'Donnell, a Franciscan monk who serves as a spiritual advisor to the Schindlers, said the parents were ''devastated'' by the decision.

''But they're not giving up hope,'' he said.

He noted that this week carries special resonance for Christians, and he compared Terri Schiavo to Jesus and her mother to the biblical Mary.

''And during this week, as we look to Good Friday, He [Jesus] was condemned by unjust courts the same way Terri Schiavo is being condemned to die by court order,'' O'Donnell said. ``We pray that this modern-day crucifixion will not happen.''

Mike Tammaro, an uncle who visited Schiavo on Tuesday, said she seemed weaker.

The reaction from Congress, which met in an extraordinary weekend session to push the legislation, was decidedly muted as lawmakers waited for word from the appeals court.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist described himself as ''deeply disappointed'' by the lower court ruling, saying it ``denies Terri Schiavo another chance to live.''

''It is a sad day for all Americans who value the sanctity of life,'' Frist said. ``I'm hopeful for a different result on appeal.''

But a representative of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida praised Wittemore.

'The president, no doubt, will continue to talk about a `culture of life,' '' said the ACLU's Howard Simon, 'but what Judge Whittemore did in his decision was to defend the `culture of freedom' that each of us have to exercise control over our lives, and the circumstances of our own death.''

Herald staff writers Noah Bierman, Marc Caputo, Debbie Cenziper, Lesley Clark, Jacob Goldstein and Scott Hiaasen and special correspondent Drew Paul in Atlanta contributed to this report.

Now for SCOTUS to put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

[Fleet Admiral JD]

My Librarian at school came up with an interesting take.

If we keep her alive, why not use her bone marrow, blood, and skin for the purposes of helping people with diseases? If she is going to be a vegitable, make her a useful vegitable.

[Iceberg]

Now for SCOTUS to put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

Hopefully if SCOTUS decides to hear this case (the chance that at this point they will override the precedent set now by 20 separate hearings is virtually nil) they will put in their opinion a section that takes the other two branches to task for their attempts to override the functions of the judicial branch.

[HemlockGrey]

So in a few days Congress will have have to find another cause to cynically attempt to manipulate people's emotions with. Great.

At least Michael Schiavo will finally have peace (since his wife's been at peace for quite a while now...), although given some of the more fanatical rightwing nutjobs, if I were him I'd be questioning just how secure my personal safety was.

[Elfdart]

I guarantee however when this is all said an done, the Republicans will use this to stir up their base that we [being the US] cruelly starved someone to death -- how dare us.

With recent polls out, I really don't see this as a plausable strategy. Atleast on a national scale. Shit hole, fundie land asshat politicians may get away with it on a very local level but with ~70% saying that they themselves would like to be 'unplugged' I don't see any 'traction' with the issue.

Fundies actually vote, while regular people stay home and watch TV.

[Ma Deuce]

Now for SCOTUS to put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

And assuming SCOTUS makes a ruling (which would doubtless uphold the standing decision to remove the tube) before Terri's body expires, I wonder what kind of shit the Schindlers are going to try and pull then?

[RedImperator]

I guarantee however when this is all said an done, the Republicans will use this to stir up their base that we [being the US] cruelly starved someone to death -- how dare us.

With recent polls out, I really don't see this as a plausable strategy. Atleast on a national scale. Shit hole, fundie land asshat politicians may get away with it on a very local level but with ~70% saying that they themselves would like to be 'unplugged' I don't see any 'traction' with the issue.

Fundies actually vote, while regular people stay home and watch TV.

Except the fundies don't like this either. Even Evangelical Protestants think Congress overstepped its authority.

[Steven Snyder]

Having done more research on the condition of Comas and vegetative states, I am reversing my position.

Pull the tube.

I still think Michael Shaivo is dirty but nothing can be done about that now.