More on Terri Schiavo--UPDATE: Schiavo dead 31 Mar 05

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Post by Knife »

MKSheppard wrote:I've heard that the judge won't let a MRI be done on her to prove if she's
really brain dead or not; and if you're going to kill someone, don't let them
starve to death; just lethally inject them with an overdose of morphine.
I would have figured that the xray showing her brain is a slushy would be more than enough. THough to a degree, I agree. If the parents are that gung ho about it, let them pay for a series of MRI's

And notice the same asshats protesting her 'death' are the same asshats who don't want euthenasia (or however it's spelled)
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Knife wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:I've heard that the judge won't let a MRI be done on her to prove if she's
really brain dead or not; and if you're going to kill someone, don't let them
starve to death; just lethally inject them with an overdose of morphine.
I would have figured that the xray showing her brain is a slushy would be more than enough. THough to a degree, I agree. If the parents are that gung ho about it, let them pay for a series of MRI's

And notice the same asshats protesting her 'death' are the same asshats who don't want euthenasia (or however it's spelled)
Euthanasia.

And I would think that the money raised for her healthcare by her parents and turned over to her husband as her guardian for her healthcare could be used for such purposes, but it was never spent on anything but him...
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Post by Knife »

So I was only off by one letter.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Elfdart »

jegs2 wrote:I tend to agree that Terri should be allowed to live, especially once we look at the facts around this case. She became injured under questionable circumstances, her "husband" refused to allow her to undergo rehabilitation and denied her medication for a time, and he has had a child with another woman through adultery. Moreover, I don't believe Terri is in a vegitative state as so many appear to believe. She is conscious. If the state is to put her to death, starving her is not a humane way to do it -- at least give her a quick death granted to convicted murderers through powerful drugs.
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Lies Terri Schiavo's parents told me
The Terri Schiavo case has transfixed the right wing media while attracting comparatively little attention from the left. This is discrepancy is understandable. Once you know the facts, there's very little to argue about. The case is literally a no brainer.

The Schiavo case presents no intricate medical, ethical, or legal dilemmas. Abstract Appeal's comprehensive legal chronology shows just how straightforward this case should have been. Michael Schiavo is Terri's legal guardian, the courts have determined that Terri wouldn't want a feeding tube, and Michael asked the doctors to take the tube out. That's really all there is to it.

The Terri Schiavo appeal is a vicious and lavishly-funded propaganda campaign. Terri's parents and their allies are using pseudoscience and character assassination to destroy Michael Schiavo. The right wing is eating it up.

If progressives don't counter these blatant misrepresentations now, the Terri Schiavo myths will be used against us for years to come.

Myths about the Terri Schiavo case

1. Terri is conscious

Court-appointed, government-appointed, and private physicians have confirmed that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state (PVS). Schiavo suffered massive brain damage as a result of a cardiac arrest 15 years ago, and ongoing neurological degeneration interim.

Patients in a PVS have no higher cognitive function and no chance of recovery.

Terri is neither comatose, nor brain dead. She is in a vegetative state because her higher brain centers have been destroyed and replaced by fluid.

1.' A recent study showed that patients like Terri are more conscious than we thought

A recent fMRI by study found that two patients in a minimally conscious state (MCS) showed slightly more brain activity during speech recognition tasks than would have been predicted based on the severity of their injuries and behavioral observations (Schiff ND, Rodriguez-Moreno D, Kamal A, et al, 2005). When the study was released, some commentators inappropriately cited this result as evidence that Terri Schiavo's level of consciousness might have been underestimated.

Terri Schiavo is not in an MCS. According to the authors of the study, a diagnosis of MCS is reserved for a subset of patients who demonstrate "unequivocal, but intermittent, behavioral evidence of awareness of self or their environment." Unfortunately, Terri is even more severely disabled than the patients in this study.

2. There are new treatments that might help Terri

Despite what Terri's parents say, there are no new treatments that could help their daughter. Anyone who claims that he can improve Terri's level of consciousness is a quack. You can't treat a brain that isn't there.

3. Terri's collapse is unexplained and/or suspicious

In an attempt to discredit Michael Schiavo, Terri's parents and their supporters are circulating unsubstantiated rumors of abuse and even accusations of attempted murder.

Former chief medical examiner for the city of New York and co-director of the Medicolegal Investigation Unit of the New York State Police, Dr. [Michael] Baden is often quoted in news reports and interviewed on television. [...] Dr. Baden, who has written three books on forensic pathology, told [Greta]van Susteren: "It's extremely rare for a 20-year-old to have a cardiac arrest from low potassium who has no other diseases . . . which she doesn't have. . . . The reason that she's in the state she's in is because there was a period of time, maybe five or eight minutes, when not enough oxygen was going to her brain. That can happen because the heart stops for five or eight minutes, but she had a healthy heart from what we can see." [Village Voice]
Terri Schiavo was not a healthy young woman. Her heart stopped because of a potassium imbalance induced by severe bulimia nervosa.[AP]

Hypokalemic cardiac arrests are rare in the population at large, but they all too common in young women with severe eating disorders. Michael Schiavo successfully sued Terri's doctors for failing to diagnose her condition. If there had been an alternate explanation for Terri's condition--like attempted murder by the plaintiff--you would think the doctors Schiavo sued would have brought it up.

Here's a transcript of the Greta van Susteren's interview with Dr. Baden on FOX News.

In the interview Baden alludes to Terri's alleged "history of trauma" and suggested that her brain damage might have been caused by a "head injury." Dr. Baden's insinuations don't hang together. Both Terri's bulimia and her potassium imbalance are well-documented. Whereas there is no evidence that Terri Schiavo's brain was destroyed by any kind of trauma.

BADEN: Yeah, your staff has provided me with a bone scan that you guys obtained ah from her initial admission in 1991 to the hospital. And that bone scan describes her as having a head injury. That’s why she’s there, that’s why she’s getting a bone scan. And a head injury can cause, lead to the vegetative state that Ms. Schiavo is in now, and it does show evidence that there are other injuries, other bone fractures, that on healing-stage, so that...
Dr. Baden says that the bone scan describes Terri as having a head injury. The implication is that the bone scan reveals that she suffered a head injury. The paperwork requesting the bone scan describes Schiavo as having had a head injury, but the bone scan didn't show any evidence of head or neck trauma.

The head injury hypothesis is utterly far-fetched. Believe me, if Terri had been bleeding into her brain on the night in question, the ER would have noticed.

An even crazier theory of Terri's collapse is phantom strangulation. This one got a sympathetic hearing from both Hannity and Colmes. The evidence is that Terri was admitted with a rigid neck. So far, no one has claimed that Terri had any of the classic signs of manual strangulation. Patients who have been strangled tend to have bruises on their necks, petechiae in the whites of their eyes (blood spots), and bits of their assailant's flesh under their fingernails. Manual strangulation doesn't always leave marks, but why attribute to phantom stranglers what can be explained by hypokalemia?

4. Michael Schiavo abused Terri

There is no firm evidence that anyone abused Terri. A judge ruled the abuse allegation irrelevant years ago, but Terri's "supporters" are determined to keep meme alive just to destroy Michael Schiavo's reputation.

Dr. Baden alleges that a bone scan taken in 1991 showed that Terri had suffered trauma. Here is the deposition of the radiologist who analyzed Terri's bone scan, Dr. William Campbell Walker.

During the deposition, Walker acknowledges that the abnormalities on the bone scan could have been caused by Schiavo's collapse, vigorous CPR, an earlier car accident, prolonged immobility, or aggressive physiotherapy. Contrary to Dr. Baden's insinuation, the scan revealed no abnormalities in the head or neck.

By the time the scan was taken, Terri had already been in the care of a nursing home for several months. For all anyone knows, Terri's bones may have been damaged by neglect or abuse at the nursing facility.

5. Terri's brain damage was caused by a closed head injury

The head injury claim has been repeated over and over in the right wing media. Here's the only evidence I was able to find for this bold claim: In his deposition, Dr. Walker says that Dr. James Carnahan, Terri's rehabilitation physician, wrote "closed head injury" on a form requesting a radiological trauma work up. Maybe Schiavo has a history of closed head injuries, but it is absurd to think that a closed head injury caused her current vegetative state.

6. Michael Schiavo just wants to inherit Terri's fortune

What fortune? Even the pro-tube Terri Schiavo Foundation reports that of the nearly one million dollar malpractice settlement earmarked for Terri's future medical care, less than $50,000 is left.

The TSF is righteously indignant that a fair chunk of that money has gone to attorneys' fees. A judge authorized Michael Schiavo to spend that money on legal representation for himself and his incapacitated wife. It's odd that the TSF is so indignant, seeing as they picked the legal fight that depleted the account.

The TSF also acknowledges that Schiavo offered to donate whatever money he stood to inherit to charity if Terri's parents would stop trying interfere with his right to make medical decisions on behalf of his wife.

I just hope that these character assassins can be discredited before they ruin another person's life. Michael Schiavo has suffered enough.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

You know, I must wonder how much attention this would have garnered if Terri was black and poor.
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Who wants to take bets that her tube will be reinserted at some point soon?
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Post by mr friendly guy »

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:I think she should be allowed to die, but I don't agree at all with passive euthanasia, even if it's people in a veggie state. I think it's undignified and it just makes the whole process longer for parents. I would rather active euthanasia be legal.

People worry about respecting the dead, I think they should just get it over with as quickly and humanely as possible without making it look like a circus.
What you define as "passive euthanasia", ie witholding of active treatment is legal here if the patient is pretty much dying with no chance of cure.

While it may be longer than "active euthanasia", we can keep them comfortable, fluids to stop them feeling dehydrated, and morphine infusions to keep them comfortable etc.

The undignified argument is a bit harder to address. Certainly when they are near death, they may act like they are gasping for air (related to high CO2), and this certainly can be distressing for relatives, even if the patient really won't notice it.
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Post by Iceberg »

If for some reason (please no) I end up in a PVS, for Chrissake, let me die. I have no desire to be a vegetable at the center of a fifteen year saga of human misery (mine).
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Post by Iceberg »

Something occurs to me: If Michael Schiavo was abusive, then why haven't any allegations of abuse come from his present lover? I'm not an expert, but I seem to recall that abuse is a pattern of personal behavior, and an abuser is likely to continue to abuse in subsequent relationships.
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Post by Mitth »

God this pisses me off. This woman should have died 15 years ago. It's utterly disgusting that this has gone on so long.
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Post by Macross »

I get the feeling that this case wont end, even when Terri's body finally dies. I expect to hear charges of murder, injury, manslaughter, wrongful death, etc. to come up soon.
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Post by Knife »

Bill Mahur actually had an interesting quote on this last night; "Have you ever heard of any one who saw something like this on TV and turned to their loved one and said 'If that happens to me, keep me alive for as long as it takes'". Or something akin to that.

From my observation, most people see something like this and say "Don't let that happen to me, pull the plug."

I really don't see this as anything more than over emotional parents who wish to have a crutch to prevent them from grieving for their daughter who for all purposes, died like 15 years ago. I feel bad for them, but I also think it's a bit creepy.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

So, let's not let her starve to death... give a lethal injection. That silences the "horrible death" crowd. :roll:
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Post by Firefox »

On the other hand, that fuels the "you're murdering her!" crowd.
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Post by RedImperator »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:So, let's not let her starve to death... give a lethal injection. That silences the "horrible death" crowd. :roll:
Can't do that. The doctors could be charged with murder for that, thanks largely to the same people who are protesting the feeding tube removal.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

RedImperator wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:So, let's not let her starve to death... give a lethal injection. That silences the "horrible death" crowd. :roll:
Can't do that. The doctors could be charged with murder for that, thanks largely to the same people who are protesting the feeding tube removal.
Then they have nothing to bitch about. Those same people believe in souls, so why do they insist on keeping Teri's shackled to her body in a hellish limbo?
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Post by Sharpshooter »

Dumb Thought of the Day: if the tube removal/insertion fiasco gets repeated several more times, could legal action be taken against the Florida legal system on the grounds of some kind of abuse (bringing her to the edge of death several times, then yanking her back at the last second)?
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Post by RedImperator »

Sharpshooter wrote:Dumb Thought of the Day: if the tube removal/insertion fiasco gets repeated several more times, could legal action be taken against the Florida legal system on the grounds of some kind of abuse (bringing her to the edge of death several times, then yanking her back at the last second)?
No. There's a very specific set of circumstances that allows a state to be sued, and good-faith decisions made by judges are exempt. You can't even sue a state for wrongful conviction unless you can prove the prosecutor or judge acted negligently, as opposed to making an honest mistake.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

HemlockGrey wrote:
Just where would her entire brain disappear to?
Liquified, perhaps?

I also think it's pretty low how the family and the religious right has gone out of their way to demonize the husband without any real evidence.
Most of the brain is water by mass and volume anyway. When the cells die, they necrotise and are broken down by the body. The collapsed area fills with cerbrospinal fluid,
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Post by Psycho Smiley »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Those same people believe in souls, so why do they insist on keeping Teri's shackled to her body in a hellish limbo?
Oh, but she's not in a hellish limbo! She's happy like this! She told them herself! The eeevil liberal media is just suppressing it! Besides, her soul is God's to do with as He pleases!

No. Really. That's their take on the issue. I especially love this one:

'Those evil judges are violating GOD's will by allowing her to die!'
Same moron 5 minutes later:
'GOD can keep her alive without food! No one can die against GOD's will!'

Doublethink much? :roll:
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Post by Firefox »

During the congressional press conference a few minutes ago, someone commented that Terri should be allowed to live so that she may continue to make her parents' lives "happy".

Some twisted definition of happiness, I guess.
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Post by Jadeite »

Psycho Smiley wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:Those same people believe in souls, so why do they insist on keeping Teri's shackled to her body in a hellish limbo?
Oh, but she's not in a hellish limbo! She's happy like this! She told them herself! The eeevil liberal media is just suppressing it! Besides, her soul is God's to do with as He pleases!

No. Really. That's their take on the issue. I especially love this one:

'Those evil judges are violating GOD's will by allowing her to die!'
Same moron 5 minutes later:
'GOD can keep her alive without food! No one can die against GOD's will!'

Doublethink much? :roll:
Was that from a forum? If so, link?
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Post by Frank Hipper »

mr friendly guy wrote:...Certainly when they are near death, they may act like they are gasping for air (related to high CO2), and this certainly can be distressing for relatives, even if the patient really won't notice it.
Uhm...yeah. Tell me about it.

Another point of trivia on this delightfully pleasant subject; the so-called "death rattle" is not the last exhalation of breath the way Hollywood portrays it, it's a horrifying, phlegmy, drowning sound as the patient gasps.
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Post by Psycho Smiley »

Jadeite wrote:Was that from a forum? If so, link?
Somewhere over in Rapture Ready. They've been arguing about it, so it may have been locked, moved to members-only, or deleted by now. Nearly identical crap can be found all over the net right now.
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Post by Psycho Smiley »

Sorry for the double post, but I just found this article. Florida won't listen to Congress and re-consider the case, so Congress is going to try and make it a federal matter:
yahoo wrote:Congress Announces Deal in Schiavo Case

By SIOBHAN McDONOUGH, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Congressional leaders said Saturday they reached a compromise that would call on federal courts to decide Terri Schiavo's fate, as emotions swelled outside the hospice where the brain-damaged woman spent her second day without a feeding tube.

Four protesters were arrested after they symbolically tried to smuggle bread and water to Schiavo, and her mother pleaded for the 41-year-old woman's life.

"We laugh together, we cry together, we smile together, we talk together," Mary Schindler told reporters as supporters maintained a vigil outside the hospice where her daughter is cared for. "Please, please, please save my little girl."

Congressional leaders announced a compromise that would allow the brain-damaged woman's case to be reviewed by federal courts that could restore her feeding tube. The legislation may be considered as early as Sunday, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said.

"We should investigate every avenue before we take the life of a living human being," said DeLay, R-Texas. "That's the very least we can do for her."

The measure would effectively take Schiavo's fate out of Florida state courts, where judges ordered the feeding tube removed on Friday, and allow Schiavo's parents to take their case to a federal judge. DeLay said that would likely mean restoration of the feeding tube "for as long as this appeal endures."

Bush spokesman Jeanie Mamo said the White House remains "supportive of the efforts by congressional leaders."

The development was the latest in an epic right-to-die battle between Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, and her husband, Michael Schiavo, over whether she should be permitted to die or kept alive by the feeding tube.

Randall Terry, an anti-abortion activist who is acting as a Schindler family spokesman, described the parents as "hopeful" that the congressional compromise would succeed. He said the parents also were concerned about the tight security in their daughter's room, which includes a police officer standing guard.

"They are so determined to kill her that they don't want mom or dad to even put an ice chip in her mouth," Terry said.

In Tallahassee, Gov. Jeb Bush's spokesman Jacob DiPietre said the governor applauded the actions in Congress and would work with legislative leaders "to adjust our laws in a similar fashion."

Passage of the measure would require the presence of only a handful of lawmakers. Congress is on its spring recess, making it more difficult to locate lawmakers.

President Bush (news - web sites), who has said he favors a "presumption of life" for Schiavo, would also have to sign the bill into law. Schiavo, 41, could linger for one or two weeks if the tube is not reinserted — as has happened twice before.

The attempted compromise would mark the latest wrinkle in the long-running legal battle over the fate of Schiavo, who doctors say is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Her husband has insisted she never wanted to live in such a condition.

"I am 100 percent sure," Michael Schiavo said Saturday on NBC's "Today." He did not respond to requests for an interview from The Associated Press.

Michael Schiavo was at his wife's bedside after the tube was removed and said he felt that "peace was happening" for her. "And I felt like she was finally going to get what she wants, and be at peace and be with the Lord," he said.

About three dozen supporters of Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, maintained a vigil outside the hospice where she lives. Four people, including right wing leader James Gordon "Bo" Gritz, were arrested on misdemeanor trespassing charges when they attempted to bring Schiavo bread and water, which she would be unable to consume.



"A woman is being starved to death, and I have to do something," said Brandi Swindell, 28, from Boise, Idaho. "There are just certain things that you have to do, that you have to try."

A spokesman for Schiavo's parents, Paul O'Donnell, later told reporters that they do not want supporters to engage in civil disobedience on their daughter's behalf.

"The family is asking that the protests remain peaceful," said O'Donnell, a Roman Catholic Franciscan monk.

Schiavo's parents have been attempting for years to remove Michael Schiavo as their daughter's guardian and keep in place the tube that has kept her alive for more than 15 years.

Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when a chemical imbalance apparently brought on by an eating disorder caused her heart to stop beating for a few minutes. She can breathe on her own, but has relied on the feeding and hydration tube to keep her alive.

Court-appointed physicians testified her brain damage was so severe that there was no hope she would ever have any cognitive abilities.

Republicans on Capitol Hill were rebuffed by state and federal courts Friday when they tried to halt the tube's removal by issuing subpoenas for Schiavo, her husband and caregivers to appear at congressional hearings.

Both sides accused each other of being motivated by greed over a $1 million medical malpractice award from doctors who failed to diagnose the chemical imbalance.

The Schindlers also said Michael Schiavo wants their daughter dead so he can marry his longtime girlfriend, with whom he has young children. They have begged him to divorce their daughter, and let them care for her.

The case has encompassed at least 19 judges in at least six different courts.

In 2001, Schiavo went without food and water for two days before a judge ordered the tube reinserted when a new witness surfaced.

When the tube was removed in October 2003, the governor pushed through "Terri's Law," and six days later the tube was reinserted. The Florida Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled in September 2004 that Bush had overstepped his authority and declared the law unconstitutional.
An Erisian Hymn:
Onward Christian Soldiers, / Onward Buddhist Priests.
Onward, Fruits of Islam, / Fight 'till you're deceased.
Fight your little battles, / Join in thickest fray;
For the Greater Glory / of Dis-cord-i-a!
Yah, yah, yah, / Yah-yah-yah-yah plfffffffft!
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