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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-23 03:36pm
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looking over some of what he posted over there I have to wonder if he actually read anything on this site other than the quick comparison. He tends to fall into the idea of author intent rather than trying SoD though it's been stated that that is what the arguments here are based on and why. He considers the ICS as irrelivant though again, this was part of what was set down as part of the outline for arguments, that all things offically recognized as canon be allowable.

He pretty much set out to debate without knowing the rules for it then seems shocked he was attacked for it.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-25 09:49pm
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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
They are now locking the thread. Asshats.


Nah, they just talked about without ever actually locking it.

Anyway, for those who haven't been following that thread, Allgoode has expanded upon one of his previous arguments:

Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
WHY LASERS OR ENERGY WEAPONS CANNOT BE MEASURED IN MEGATONS

Lasers or other energy type weapons are rated not on destructive force. They are measured in power consumed. Hence, you can have a 100 MEGAWATT laser, but no way can you have a 100 MEGATON laser.

This would be like someone asking, "How many Newtons does it take to move an object?" and getting back "1000 BTU" YES, both measure energy. However, this does not mean you can simply interchange them back and forth.

Explosives are rated on how much TNT it would take to create a similar blast. So, an 800 pound blast would mean it requires 800 pounds of TNT to create a similar explosion. Hence, one megaton means it would take one million tons of TNT to create a similar explosion.

Think I am being silly? Nope. Both measure energy, right? Therefore, someone using your logic can sit there and use ANY unit of energy to answer whatever question they wish.

And as far as the Watt/Joule argument, they are more like converting Imperial Measurements (US scale) to Metric. We ALL know that a Kilogram is NOT the same as a Pound. A Kilometer is NOT the same as a Mile. A Liter is NOT the same as a Gallon.

Now, see what happens in a civil conversation? No insults, no grade school antics, and no bullshit. And things flow so much easier.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-25 10:05pm
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Doesn't this guy know that easiest way (if not the only way) measure the firepower of an bolt based energy weapons (like TL's) is to measure the energy of single bolt, only continuous beam weapons are measured in Watts as their firepower depend on how long you fire the weapon. for bolt you use Joules or tons of TNT. And no weapon is rated by it power consumption as nothing is 100% efficient, so the power consumed will more then the power that hits the target (the thing you want to know).



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-25 11:28pm
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What a moron. As if explosive force is really a scientific unit. Anyone who knows anything about enhanced radiation weapons, some of which had high yields (but would've had low blast effects) realizes its simply a measure of the energy content of a given quantity of high explosive.

And all the joules to kt calculators out there? How curious.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-25 11:36pm
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Well this sad excuse for human being caused me to make this
I wrote:
ENERGY WEAPON FIREPOWER

First you must ask what do want to know, in this case we want to know how much damage does this weapon do to your potential enemies. Some people say we must use the weapons power consumtion to measure this, but that’s the wrong way to do it. As no weapon is 100% efficient you get Equation xP=Y (where P is the power consumtion, x is efficiency of the gun and Y is the firepower), to get any realistic estimates of the firepower of any weapon we must use energy/power input into the target.

Easiest way to analyze energy weapon is to devide them three categories: bolt weapons, pulse-beam weapons and continuous beam weapons. I’ll deal with each of these now.


Bolt weapons
This weapon type fires an energy “bullet” called a bolt, easiest way analyze the damage done by this kind of weapon is to measure the energy of single bolt then multiple it by number of bolts fired. Any way you end up always with joules in the final answer.

Pulse-beam weapons
This weapon type fires beam that lasts always the same time. You’ll probly want joules (energy) in this as well, since time won’t change and easiest is again to measure the energy of a single pulse.

continuous beam weapons
This weapon type uses a beam that lasts for as long as like it to (or until the weapons overheats due to waste heat). This the only energy weapon type where you should use watt instead of joules as the energy (joules) depends on how long fire the weapon and power (watt) is energy per time used (J/s).


Somebody might ask why can’t use the power consumtion of the weapon. Since we want to know how much damage this weapon does to its target not how much it drains for the main power source and every has inefficiencies that make the actual firepower lower then the power consumtion, the power consumtion is irrelevant as it possible to measure the firepower from the material we have, but not the energy consumtion (remember P=E/t so power consumtion=energy consumtion for time t).

and explosive force is has not it's own unit, tons of TNT is a unit of energy (it's definied in joules)


I hope somebody can use this



I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-26 06:34am
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How can you guys stand the sheer stubborness of this guy? After seeing him saying things like this and still emanating the aura of smugness and superiority, I don't think I could restrain myself from flaming the idiot to death.

Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
This would be like someone asking, "How many Newtons does it take to move an object?" and getting back "1000 BTU" YES, both measure energy. However, this does not mean you can simply interchange them back and forth.


Emphasis mine.
Do I really need to comment this? Either the american high school system sucks ass more than I could have imagined, or this guy never got past elementary school physics. Hell, even "google physicists" should know the difference between a Newton and a BTU.


I like this part the most, though:

Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
Therefore, someone using your logic can sit there and use ANY unit of energy to answer whatever question they wish.


Well...yes. Yes he can, genius :)
Just like I can measure the lenght of my cock in feet, inches, meters or centimeters :)

And this gem, of course:

Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
And as far as the Watt/Joule argument, they are more like converting Imperial Measurements (US scale) to Metric. We ALL know that a Kilogram is NOT the same as a Pound. A Kilometer is NOT the same as a Mile. A Liter is NOT the same as a Gallon.


Oh noes...a pound is about equal to 0,5 kilograms! That means we cannot, under any circumstances, use these units interchangeably! Imperial and metric are impossible to convert to one another! That means anyone doing it obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, and so we can ignore all his evidence, as well as all his sources!

Christ, I think I gonna register on that board.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-26 09:06am
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XaLEv wrote:
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
They are now locking the thread. Asshats.


Nah, they just talked about without ever actually locking it.

Anyway, for those who haven't been following that thread, Allgoode has expanded upon one of his previous arguments:

Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
WHY LASERS OR ENERGY WEAPONS CANNOT BE MEASURED IN MEGATONS

Lasers or other energy type weapons are rated not on destructive force. They are measured in power consumed. Hence, you can have a 100 MEGAWATT laser, but no way can you have a 100 MEGATON laser.

This would be like someone asking, "How many Newtons does it take to move an object?" and getting back "1000 BTU" YES, both measure energy. However, this does not mean you can simply interchange them back and forth.

Explosives are rated on how much TNT it would take to create a similar blast. So, an 800 pound blast would mean it requires 800 pounds of TNT to create a similar explosion. Hence, one megaton means it would take one million tons of TNT to create a similar explosion.

Think I am being silly? Nope. Both measure energy, right? Therefore, someone using your logic can sit there and use ANY unit of energy to answer whatever question they wish.

And as far as the Watt/Joule argument, they are more like converting Imperial Measurements (US scale) to Metric. We ALL know that a Kilogram is NOT the same as a Pound. A Kilometer is NOT the same as a Mile. A Liter is NOT the same as a Gallon.

Now, see what happens in a civil conversation? No insults, no grade school antics, and no bullshit. And things flow so much easier.


I couln't believe he keeps insisting such idiocity... My, my. I guess his "argumants" deserve pubic exposure!

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-29 11:03pm
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42's (apparently) four posts have been deleted. Unfortunately, I only have three of them, as one was deleted in the time between loading the index and clicking the link. I hope he saved them, whoever he is.

Anyway, here they are.

42 wrote:
Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
WHY LASERS OR ENERGY WEAPONS CANNOT BE MEASURED IN MEGATONS

Lasers or other energy type weapons are rated not on destructive force. They are measured in power consumed. Hence, you can have a 100 MEGAWATT laser, but no way can you have a 100 MEGATON laser.

This would be like someone asking, "How many Newtons does it take to move an object?" and getting back "1000 BTU" YES, both measure energy. However, this does not mean you can simply interchange them back and forth.



Newtons are a unit for force, not energy. Although i don't expect you know what the difference is.

Quote:
Explosives are rated on how much TNT it would take to create a similar blast. So, an 800 pound blast would mean it requires 800 pounds of TNT to create a similar explosion. Hence, one megaton means it would take one million tons of TNT to create a similar explosion.

Think I am being silly? Nope. Both measure energy, right? Therefore, someone using your logic can sit there and use ANY unit of energy to answer whatever question they wish.



Let me explain: energy is the capacity to do work, work is force x distance. That is, applying a certain force to an object causing it to move a certain distance requires a certain amount of energy. There are many different forms of energy, e.g. a bullet has kinetic energy, gasoline has chemical potential energy, an axe in mid swing has gravitational potential energy. The SI unit for energy is the joule. All those things can be measured in joules. However, when it comes to big explosions, it's conventional to use the non-SI unit of tons. An explosion is just a rapid release of energy, usually in the form of heat. Tons are just another unit which is used to measure of energy. A megaton is defined to be 4.18 petajoules. It's derivation from the specific combustion energy of TNT (4.184 MJ/kg) does not mean it's not just a unit of energy like joules. Yes, anyone can sit there and use any unit of energy to answer a question resulting in energy, you can 'interchange them back and forth'.

Quote:
And as far as the Watt/Joule argument, they are more like converting Imperial Measurements (US scale) to Metric. We ALL know that a Kilogram is NOT the same as a Pound. A Kilometer is NOT the same as a Mile. A Liter is NOT the same as a Gallon.



No, because watts and joules aren't just different units of the same quantity. You can measure distance using either kilometers or miles, but you can't use kilograms. Miles measure distance, kilograms measure mass. Watts measure power, joules measure energy. Power = Energy / Time.

Picture water flowing from a tap into a bucket. There might be 10 milliliters flowing into the bucket for every 1 second that passes. Run the tap for 100 seconds, and you have a liter of water in the bucket. I will now christen the unit of 'Flow' to be the Allgoode. I define the Allgoode to be 5 milliliters per second. That tap has a flow of 0.2 Allgoodes. For a duration of 100 seconds, that tap gives a volume of 1 liter. The Watt was defined to be 1 joule per second. For a pulse duration of 100 seconds, a laser with a power of 1 watt gives an energy of 100 joules. Get it now?



42 wrote:
Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
Ok. Seems you still are not getting it there.

Newtons DO measure energy. They measure KINETIC energy.



No, they do not. You're obviously just pretending to know what you're talking about. I can't believe you wrote that with a straight face. Kinetic energy is measured in joules, just like every other kind of energy. E.g. a 1kg rock moving at 10 metres per second has a kinetic energy of 50 joules. It's extremely basic: KE = 1/2mv^2.

Anyone who has ever taken any kind of physics knows this stuff.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=newton&r=67
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton

Quote:
YES, there are formulas that can convert the energy released in an explosion from Joules to megatons. However, that is not the entire use of the Megaton. A Megaton measures the entire blast force in ammount of dynamite. Please reread the science books and websites, or look at sites dealing with nukes.



No, megatons don't measure 'the entire blast force in ammount of dynamite', they measure the energy released by the explosion based on the energy density of TNT. You can't even get the chemical right: dynamite is stabilised nitro, TNT is completely different.

Quote:
Don't assume I do not understand P=I*E at all. I KNOW what these things are. However, Michael Wong's website used the Watt and Joule interchangeably. Maybe the science lesson is better suited to him then.



No, for electrical currents, P=VI. Potential difference is not the same thing as energy. The most common expression for power is P = E/t, and it's measured in units of joules per second, also known as watts. This is simple stuff, you have to admit that you really don't know what you're talking about.



42 wrote:
Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
Reread the AOTC section closely, and you will see what I am talking about.

The Watt / Joules thing is a simple matter that while you CAN convert between the 2, you can't simply use them interchangeably. A kilometer and a mile both measure distance, but you can't state that 300KM is the same as 300Miles, or vice-versa. Simply a nono.



No, you couldn't be more wrong. Yes, miles and kilometers both measure distance, and one is from the metric system and the other is imperial. Watts and joules are NOT from two different metrological systems, measuring the same quantity. They are both SI units, and watts measure power while joules measure energy. Just look at the equation: P=E/t.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=watt&r=67
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=joule

What you're saying is analogous to claiming that velocity and distance are the same thing, and then trying to prove this by saying that pounds and kilograms both measure mass.

Velocity = Distance / Time.
Power = Energy / Time.
You = Are / Wrong.


Magestorm is saying 42 was an already banned poster.

As an aside, the other day I measured the flow rate of my urine. 4.16 Allgoodes. woot.



「かかっ―」

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-29 11:26pm
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What the hell? I'd never even heard of that crappy board before DW did this thread. FFS i have a variable IP that changes every time i connect. It's clear i can't attribute to stupidity what i must now attribute to malicious cowardly lying dishonest sneaky infantile stuck-up pig-headed complete goddamn pussy bullshit with delusions of grandeur and... wait what was i saying?

That guy's quick to cover his tracks- i only wrote that stuff this morning. I used "42" since i didn't want to risk getting banned instantly by being recognised as an SD.netter.

The last post wasn't to Magestorm, it was to some guy called "Miklos". I think i remember 95% of what i said:

42 (i.e. me) wrote:
Miklos wrote:
example:

[snip]

Innapropriate argument.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newtons are a unit for force, not energy. Although i don't expect you know what the difference is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


tsk tsk. In the honored tradition of debate the occasionaly light hearted shot for humor is welcome and will get you points. But on the inter net the only way to indicate that it is lighthearted is with a =P which detracts from the argument.... so lets just refrain from taking jabs at eachother mmmkay?

My statement is true. Magestorm does not know the difference between force and energy, as he's repeatedly shown:

Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
Newtons DO measure energy. They measure KINETIC energy.

There's nothing personal or vindictive about proving someone wrong, and concluding that they didn't understand what they were talking about.

Is it the policy of this board to censor the truth just because it annoys authority figures?


Well, I guess i got my frickin answer.



Robert Gilruth to Max Faget on the Apollo program: “Max, we’re going to go back there one day, and when we do, they’re going to find out how tough it is.”

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 12:32am
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Jesus....

I need to read the SW vs ST forum more often, this was hilarious!



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 03:51am
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Well, i've just been banned a second time, after popping in to say:

42 Reborn! wrote:
I had never heard of this board until it was brought up in a Stardestroyer.net thread, and I have a variable IP. Therefore, Magestorm Allgoode lied.

Over there i'm known as Winston Blake. You can see my posts that were deleted in this thread:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 00#1394400

You can see that there's no objectionable material either, i simply proved him wrong.

Magestorm, you've shown yourself to be a coward and sore loser. Feel free to ban this account; i won't be coming back again to this sorry corner of internet... you've given your board a bad name.

My disgust with your administrative conduct is currently flowing at 42 megaAllgoodes (read that thread to see what this means).


He did an IP ban this time (after which i naturally changed my IP and went straight in to read what he wrote 30 seconds later). I'm inclined to sign up again just for a few more laughs, but it's kinda like poking dog shit with a stick- gets boring pretty fast. Stop looking at me like that.

Shitstorm Wankgoode wrote:
His IP Domain has been banished, for repeatedly creating new accouts to get around a ban.

If others have problems getting in here because of it, I do apologize. However, this has been forced upon me, because of repeated ban evasions.

My lying-bullshit-o-meter just pinned itself past the end of the scale, a flow of at least 100 petaAllgoodes.
Analstorm Suckitgoode wrote:
TOPIC IS NOW LOCKED. ANY NEW THREADS CONTINUING THIS WIL BE DELETED.

...and that, as they say, is that.



Robert Gilruth to Max Faget on the Apollo program: “Max, we’re going to go back there one day, and when we do, they’re going to find out how tough it is.”

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 05:47am
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I pmed 2 different complaints to the board's owner. I don't know if we can expect a timely response though; raptorman(the owner) is in the Navy and is currently deployed.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 10:49am
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 06:05pm
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closet sci-fi fan wrote:
I pmed 2 different complaints to the board's owner. I don't know if we can expect a timely response though; raptorman(the owner) is in the Navy and is currently deployed.
I haven't received anything on my ban. :evil:



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 07:14pm
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If the admin's away, who's got the Ban Cannon running on full auto? Magestorm isn't an admin, is he?



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 07:28pm
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Rogue 9 wrote:
If the admin's away, who's got the Ban Cannon running on full auto? Magestorm isn't an admin, is he?


Magestorm was one of the two admins left in charge. The other admin has been preoccupied with life lately and has been away, I believe.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 07:31pm
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One of the best things about all this, is if you google Magestorm Allgoode, this thread comes out near the top.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 07:33pm
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Blah. I would go in; my style tends to grate less than the average SD.net member's, but now he's so riled that anyone gainsaying him would probably be banned even if they hailed him as God-Emperor of Mankind while respectfully disagreeing.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 07:36pm
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XaLEv wrote:
One of the best things about all this, is if you google Magestorm Allgoode, this thread comes out near the top.

Near the top? It is the top. :lol:



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 07:37pm
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Rogue 9 wrote:
Blah. I would go in; my style tends to grate less than the average SD.net member's, but now he's so riled that anyone gainsaying him would probably be banned even if they hailed him as God-Emperor of Mankind while respectfully disagreeing.


Why bother? He's obviously an idiot who can't debate rationally. He sticks his nose into topics he obviously has little knowledge of, then when corrected he refuses to accept the corrections or properly research a rebuttal.

He's a moron. Let him wank with his mighty admin powers to his heart's content.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 07:39pm
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Does this mean we get a new hatemail subject? Or this a general idiot not worth the honor?



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 07:42pm
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I'm sorry, I can't resist. :lol:
Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
Shipboard offensive capabilities

SW: large bolt class weaponry, and conventional torpedos/rockets. These appear to have energy discharge capability. Proton torpedos use a burst of highly charged protons to annihilate their target. Targeting seems to be lock on dumb missiles for the most part.
ST: Large beam class weaponry, and conventional torpedos. Photon torpedos actually are small matter/antimatter reactions, releasing huge ammounts of damage on the target. Programmable to do a variety of targeting abilities, as seen in Undiscovered Country.

Dumb missiles locking on? That's a new one. He contradicted himself within four words. :lol:



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 07:46pm
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Rogue 9 wrote:
I'm sorry, I can't resist. :lol:
Magestorm Allgoode wrote:
Shipboard offensive capabilities

SW: large bolt class weaponry, and conventional torpedos/rockets. These appear to have energy discharge capability. Proton torpedos use a burst of highly charged protons to annihilate their target. Targeting seems to be lock on dumb missiles for the most part.
ST: Large beam class weaponry, and conventional torpedos. Photon torpedos actually are small matter/antimatter reactions, releasing huge ammounts of damage on the target. Programmable to do a variety of targeting abilities, as seen in Undiscovered Country.

Dumb missiles locking on? That's a new one. He contradicted himself within four words. :lol:


They're... really smart for dumb missiles, y'see.

Just think of all the kittens this man has killed with his wanking. Somebody should organize a tribunal for perpetrators of such wanton slaughter.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-30 10:02pm
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What a fucking coward. Anyone mind if I come in? This looks fun. :)



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-12-31 12:44am
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The most amazing thing about all of this is that he acknowledges in his very first E-mail that megatons are defined as 4.2E15 joules, yet he still insists that it's OK to quantify weapons with joules but not megatons! It really is exactly like saying that you can measure someone's height with centimetres but it's impossible to do so with inches.



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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

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