The morality of being a soldier

[Sarevok]

Sokartawi's argument is if there is no evidence to prove something does not exist there is a possibility it might exist unless proven otherwise. However this assertion is false. Two people could make two different two contradicting assertion about something that does not exist. If it does exist only one of them is right. That proves just believing something does not mean it exists.

[Sarevok]

But they will shoot at them if they try to get away.

Nope. Police tries their very best to capture the suspect without killing him or her. They prefer handcuffs to handguns.

Stop cooperating with them altogether, thus making bad behavour not profitable, thus preventing people becomming badguys.

Bad guys are armed and dangerous. They can harm and kill people. People will be forced to obey them out of fear if the bad guys are not stopped via force.

If you have a good reason to believe that's true then I see no problem with it. However you don't believe it.

Three Imperial Star Destroyers around pluto has the same amount of proof as your theory, aka zero. I cant see how it can be wrong if you believe in your theory of reincarnation and karma.

Lack of evidence does not mean something is false.

How so ? By your logic if I claim you killed a man and you should be executed with zero evidence you can be executed since lack of evidence does not mean I am false.

That is correct.

Then you are wrong. That proves believing in something does not make it right without evidence.

He also not drank anything in those 10 days.

Peopple might be able to go without water for 10 days. Just because there is no evidence for that does not mean it is false.

We don't know who's right.

Both of us is wrong since there is zero evidence.

[Kamakazie Sith]

But they will shoot at them if they try to get away.

Police can only shoot at a fleeing suspect if the suspect is a felon and the police have reasonable suspicion to believe that suspect will cause serious bodily injury or death to other members of the public if they escape.

[Mange]

Sokartawi, on which planet do you live? Oh, you're a fellow Swede, how come that didn't surprise me, because you sound as a typical Swede on their high horses, passing judgment on everyone else while we have always been sitting passive up here and never actively intervening in the fight for freedom (as in defending the humanistic values during the Second World War and sat passive as our brother nations became occupied by Nazi Germany).

[Sokartawi]

But they will shoot at them if they try to get away.

Police can only shoot at a fleeing suspect if the suspect is a felon and the police have reasonable suspicion to believe that suspect will cause serious bodily injury or death to other members of the public if they escape.

Exactly, so in that case the suspect does not get protection from harm, and the police does something which others may not do.

[Sokartawi]

Sokartawi's argument is if there is no evidence to prove something does not exist there is a possibility it might exist unless proven otherwise. However this assertion is false. Two people could make two different two contradicting assertion about something that does not exist. If it does exist only one of them is right. That proves just believing something does not mean it exists.

I never said that you dork, if you believe something and there is no evidence to the contrary it COULD exist.

[Sokartawi]

But they will shoot at them if they try to get away.

Nope. Police tries their very best to capture the suspect without killing him or her. They prefer handcuffs to handguns.

Trying isn't good enough.

Stop cooperating with them altogether, thus making bad behavour not profitable, thus preventing people becomming badguys.

Bad guys are armed and dangerous. They can harm and kill people. People will be forced to obey them out of fear if the bad guys are not stopped via force.

That's the problem, humans should stop fearing them, that way they will be powerless.

If you have a good reason to believe that's true then I see no problem with it. However you don't believe it.

Three Imperial Star Destroyers around pluto has the same amount of proof as your theory, aka zero. I cant see how it can be wrong if you believe in your theory of reincarnation and karma.

Because I base my beliefs on something, while you just pulled it out of your ass. Even though I cannot provide scientific evidence it doesn't mean I just made it up because I was bored. You did.

Lack of evidence does not mean something is false.

How so ? By your logic if I claim you killed a man and you should be executed with zero evidence you can be executed since lack of evidence does not mean I am false.

Incomparable, like the 21 year old / get a drink example.

That is correct.

Then you are wrong. That proves believing in something does not make it right without evidence.

No, it gives it the possibility to be right. You fail to understand this don't you?

He also not drank anything in those 10 days.

Peopple might be able to go without water for 10 days. Just because there is no evidence for that does not mean it is false.

Since we haven't seen it before, and lots of people die within 10 days, this guy's rare. Doesn't mean he's the only one.

We don't know who's right.

Both of us is wrong since there is zero evidence.

No one of us COULD be right, idiot.

[Sokartawi]

100% wrong. The company made a product.

Aha, action.

If they put more work and money into it, they COULD have made it safer. They did not bother; this is inaction.

Inaction related to the action shown above, thus still action.

Inaction which is "related to" action is a form of action? How do you define inaction "related to" action? This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that your system of ethics is a house of cards. You cannot define it in such a manner that anyone can tell what it will predict in any given situation. Instead, you manufacture a flimsy rationalization to force it to suit your preferred conclusion. And then you ignore the fact that your system of ethics would make society worse, not better.

If you do an action, you can't do it halfway, because otherwise the action results into harm. So, any choices you make concerning that action must result that the action overall still has a positive effect. If you make a choice not to do a certain thing, the action might result in something negative.

If that wasn't so then it would be very easy to go around doing bad things. "Oh I didn't stab this guy, I just didn't put away the knife, not my fault"

In fact , even in your mythical world where everyone is peaceful and no one employs violence, your system of ethics would still be more harmful than mine, because things like the engineering code of ethics (which demands that we proactively take action to prevent dangers to the public if we become aware of them, regardless of whether we are personally responsible for them) would no longer be followed.

People would likely still prevent dangers to the public, and the system of ethics recommends it too, however, if a person does not prevent this danger, he wouldn't get thrown in jail or something.

[Sokartawi]

You're seeking a purity of ideal which cannot ever come to be, and refusing to accomodate the world that does exist in the process.

That's your privilege in the life you lead, but it's a futile waste.

Living in a society such as this one is a futile waste anyway.

If it is a futile waste then why continue to live in it? Morover what makes it a futile waste? Are you saying that because others disagree with you on several ethical issues that it makes yoru life in this society completely ponitless? If that's the case then perhaps I could suggest agreat big hug because that's a damn sad outlook on things.

I continue to live because I am hoping for a miracle that changes things.

Why it's a waste:
1) Lack of freedom. Can't live where I want (at least not legally) because everything is owned by someone, and if I want to buy someone out they ask outrageous prices.
2) People are idiots/sheep. Neighbour has a new kitchen? So what? Why do YOU want a new one too all of the sudden? Not happy with what you got? Then why did you buy it in the first place, idiot...
3) Fashion. Yeah really. What is so cool about black suits and ties? They look fucking ugly, and I can't imagine they are very comfortable either. Sure you can wear what you want, but if you REALLY had a choice I wouldn't think so many people would wear that crap.
4) Lack of purpose. Money doesn't really interest me much because besides computer stuff (I don't buy the most expansive fastest stuff by the way) and the occasional warhammer models there isn't much that I want to buy. Except a house in the middle of nowhere perhaps, but that cost a lot more. Status doesn't interest me either, I don't feel the need to compare myself with anyone else. So in short, capitalism like this is not a very nice place for me since it offers me very little.

Also some other reasons but can always spew more later.

[Karza]

Trying isn't good enough.

What is then, pray tell? They are just humans, after all.

That's the problem, humans should stop fearing them, that way they will be powerless.

Stop fearing them? You are aware that humans tend to value their own life and those of their loved ones? No one can just stop fearing them. Except in that beautiful little fantasy world of yours.

[Master of Ossus]

How can a murderer be powerless if people stop fearing them? In case you have noticed Scrotum-tawi, the murderer in your fantasy land CAN STILL KILL PEOPLE. They literally have the ultimate power, since if people piss them off then they kill those people. That's not what I would call powerless, even if no one did what they ordered everyone else to do.

[Master of Ossus]

I continue to live because I am hoping for a miracle that changes things.

Why it's a waste:
1) Lack of freedom. Can't live where I want (at least not legally) because everything is owned by someone, and if I want to buy someone out they ask outrageous prices.

Outrageous prices for property in the middle of nowhere?

2) People are idiots/sheep. Neighbour has a new kitchen? So what? Why do YOU want a new one too all of the sudden? Not happy with what you got? Then why did you buy it in the first place, idiot...

That affects you... how? In other words, you're pissed off because other people have desires and you think they're the crazy ones.

BTW, you have a house, don't you? But you want one in the middle of nowhere, now? What the hell is wrong with you? Why aren't you happy living where you are, douchebag?

3) Fashion. Yeah really. What is so cool about black suits and ties? They look fucking ugly, and I can't imagine they are very comfortable either. Sure you can wear what you want, but if you REALLY had a choice I wouldn't think so many people would wear that crap.

Again, how does this affect you? Does it make you feel outcast? ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU'RE FUCKING AFTER?

4) Lack of purpose. Money doesn't really interest me much because besides computer stuff (I don't buy the most expansive fastest stuff by the way) and the occasional warhammer models there isn't much that I want to buy. Except a house in the middle of nowhere perhaps, but that cost a lot more.

Right, and you're not willing to get money to buy the house in the middle of nowhere, since that would be a purpose.

Status doesn't interest me either, I don't feel the need to compare myself with anyone else. So in short, capitalism like this is not a very nice place for me since it offers me very little.

Aw, poor baby.

[Sokartawi]

Trying isn't good enough.

What is then, pray tell? They are just humans, after all.

Stop being hypocritical, when you don't like others killing, don't kill anyone.

That's the problem, humans should stop fearing them, that way they will be powerless.

Stop fearing them? You are aware that humans tend to value their own life and those of their loved ones? No one can just stop fearing them. Except in that beautiful little fantasy world of yours.

Humans have shown to be willing to put their life on the line for ideals, I don't see why this is any different.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Stop being hypocritical, when you don't like others killing, don't kill anyone.

Bit of a difference between killing for the sake of killing like most murderers and killing as punishment/self-defence.

[Sokartawi]

How can a murderer be powerless if people stop fearing them? In case you have noticed Scrotum-tawi, the murderer in your fantasy land CAN STILL KILL PEOPLE. They literally have the ultimate power, since if people piss them off then they kill those people. That's not what I would call powerless, even if no one did what they ordered everyone else to do.

Being able to kill people isn't real power, usually threatening to kill or killing people is a means to force them to cooperate. In this case it's useless since they won't get what they want, which will mean that less people would do things like that.

[Sokartawi]

Stop being hypocritical, when you don't like others killing, don't kill anyone.

Bit of a difference between killing for the sake of killing like most murderers and killing as punishment/self-defence.

End doesn't justify the means.

[Karza]

Stop being hypocritical, when you don't like others killing, don't kill anyone.

Even if that means the others can and will keep on killing? What's better? The cop shoots and kills the bad guy who attempts to escape, or he let's the bad guy escape and this baddie goes on to harm/kill many more people?

Humans have shown to be willing to put their life on the line for ideals, I don't see why this is any different.

Yeah, when they feel it makes a difference. Telling a gangster to go fuck himself and subsequently getting killed doesn't fill that criteria.

[Master of Ossus]

Being able to kill people isn't real power, usually threatening to kill or killing people is a means to force them to cooperate. In this case it's useless since they won't get what they want, which will mean that less people would do things like that.

Don't kid yourself. If someone were to (heaven forbid) walk out and kill the president of a country, or Kofi Annan, or ANYONE who has significant influence on global politics, then they would be exerting power by changing the way in which the world operates and would be influencing a huge fraction of people. Even by "only" killing someone on the street, the murderer is exerting substantial power over other people who are depending on that person or who care about him. Killing someone is a form of power, and many murderers don't even want anything out of their victims--they are literally just out to kill someone.

[Master of Ossus]

End doesn't justify the means.

Why not? Why can the ends categorically not justify the means?

[Sokartawi]

I continue to live because I am hoping for a miracle that changes things.

Why it's a waste:
1) Lack of freedom. Can't live where I want (at least not legally) because everything is owned by someone, and if I want to buy someone out they ask outrageous prices.

Outrageous prices for property in the middle of nowhere?

Yah exactly.

2) People are idiots/sheep. Neighbour has a new kitchen? So what? Why do YOU want a new one too all of the sudden? Not happy with what you got? Then why did you buy it in the first place, idiot...

That affects you... how? In other words, you're pissed off because other people have desires and you think they're the crazy ones.

Nothing wrong with desires, as long as they aren't there for the sake of having something someone else has too.

BTW, you have a house, don't you? But you want one in the middle of nowhere, now? What the hell is wrong with you? Why aren't you happy living where you are, douchebag?

I don't own the house.

3) Fashion. Yeah really. What is so cool about black suits and ties? They look fucking ugly, and I can't imagine they are very comfortable either. Sure you can wear what you want, but if you REALLY had a choice I wouldn't think so many people would wear that crap.

Again, how does this affect you? Does it make you feel outcast? ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU'RE FUCKING AFTER?

No. And it affects me because it confronts me with the fact that people are dumb idiotic mindless sheep all the damn time.

4) Lack of purpose. Money doesn't really interest me much because besides computer stuff (I don't buy the most expansive fastest stuff by the way) and the occasional warhammer models there isn't much that I want to buy. Except a house in the middle of nowhere perhaps, but that cost a lot more.

Right, and you're not willing to get money to buy the house in the middle of nowhere, since that would be a purpose.

I'm already doing that, it will just take another 20 years or something till I have enough money.

Status doesn't interest me either, I don't feel the need to compare myself with anyone else. So in short, capitalism like this is not a very nice place for me since it offers me very little.

Aw, poor baby.

Aw poor sheep. Baaaaahhh!

[Karza]

Being able to kill people isn't real power, usually threatening to kill or killing people is a means to force them to cooperate. In this case it's useless since they won't get what they want, which will mean that less people would do things like that.

Too bad no sane person will ever sacrifice him/herself like that. And why? Because it doesn't benefit them or their family, friends, etc. in any way. Selfish? In your deluded opinion, probably. Humans just happen to be like that. I certainly won't get myself pointlessly killed like that, just because if all people did something so profoundly stupid, it might change something (Not fucking likely, to put it nicely).

[Sokartawi]

Stop being hypocritical, when you don't like others killing, don't kill anyone.

Even if that means the others can and will keep on killing? What's better? The cop shoots and kills the bad guy who attempts to escape, or he let's the bad guy escape and this baddie goes on to harm/kill many more people?

In the long run and when done on a large enough scale, try to get the baddie without killing him. If he gets away this time, well shit happens, better luck next time, will get him eventually if he keeps it up.

Humans have shown to be willing to put their life on the line for ideals, I don't see why this is any different.

Yeah, when they feel it makes a difference. Telling a gangster to go fuck himself and subsequently getting killed doesn't fill that criteria.

That would make a difference when enough people were that way.

[Master of Ossus]

Yah exactly.

What exactly is the going rate on property in the middle of nowhere? Explain how that rate is ridiculous.

Nothing wrong with desires, as long as they aren't there for the sake of having something someone else has too.

And it never occurs to you that new kitchens have utility outside of keeping up with the Joneses?

I don't own the house.

Irrelevant. You have a place to live. Why aren't you happy with it?

No. And it affects me because it confronts me with the fact that people are dumb idiotic mindless sheep all the damn time.

This is such a ridiculously immature attitude, and in case you haven't noticed it dodged the question. Why does it hurt you so much to see fashionable people walking around?

I'm already doing that, it will just take another 20 years or something till I have enough money.

In other words, you DO have a purpose, hence your criticism was useless.

[Karza]

In the long run and when done on a large enough scale, try to get the baddie without killing him. If he gets away this time, well shit happens, better luck next time, will get him eventually if he keeps it up.

And god knows how many people get killed in the process. Really smart. And all that harm and grief just because that cop isn't allowed to even wound the baddie.

That would make a difference when enough people were that way.

So I should sacrifice myself hoping that enough people follow suit, resulting in the pointless death of a shitload of people, because that would remove the problem sometime in the future? You really don't understand human behavor very well, do you? Been eating funny looking mushrooms lately?

Anyway, seeing as your sig is perfectly true, over and out.

[Sokartawi]

Yah exactly.

What exactly is the going rate on property in the middle of nowhere? Explain how that rate is ridiculous.

Because usable land happens to cost a lot of money no matter where it is.

Nothing wrong with desires, as long as they aren't there for the sake of having something someone else has too.

And it never occurs to you that new kitchens have utility outside of keeping up with the Joneses?

Lot of people don't even know how to cook something, yet they still want the new kitchen just to show off.

I don't own the house.

Irrelevant. You have a place to live. Why aren't you happy with it?

Because there is no ground with it I can do with as I please, thus I cannot be self-sufficient.

No. And it affects me because it confronts me with the fact that people are dumb idiotic mindless sheep all the damn time.

This is such a ridiculously immature attitude, and in case you haven't noticed it dodged the question. Why does it hurt you so much to see fashionable people walking around?

I just said that, idiot. I don't like seeing masochist sheep, like relious fundies wouldn't like seeing people having sex in public all the time.

I'm already doing that, it will just take another 20 years or something till I have enough money.

In other words, you DO have a purpose, hence your criticism was useless.[/quote]
Wow, what a purpose...