The morality of being a soldier

[frigidmagi]

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The earth is flat used to be quite simple too, is it not?

Until you looked at the facts

[Sokartawi]

No, since it's only your duty when you choose for it. The manufactorer chose his job, and with that choice he got responsibility. A mother is responsible for her kid, because she chose to have one, and when she got that kid she also got the duty to take care of it.

And who decides that this choice is accompanied by that duty? You? What give you the right to make that decision? Suppose a manufacturer decides to make a product but declares that he does not think this action comes with any duties. Who are you to say that he is wrong?.

Because he's directly responsible for harming others if he does not do this duty, which is to be avoided with my system of morals.

It was not my choice to be a member of this society, so I have no responsibility to it. In fact, I do not even believe the society has the right to enforce laws on me, since I did not sign anything that gave them that right nor did I have a choice in being here.

Irrelevant. You exist, and unless you have never used electricity, manufactuerd goods, medicine, technology of any kind (a moot point since you are communicating with me now over the Internet), or any sort of social services whatsoever including schooling, you have used the benefits given by society. Society, in turn, demands certain social responsibilities from you..

I pay for all those services, so I owe them nothing more. As for schooling, I did not want to go there and even had to be dragged there kicking and screaming. The day I was no longer required by law to go there, I left.

The most salient point here remains: my system of ethics is simply superior to yours, because it can be justified without having to resort to circular logic. If you ask why a system of ethics which has some justification in reality should be considered superior to one which does not, then first answer me this: does your system of ethics recommend actions to be taken in objective reality? If so, then it operates on objective reality, therefore it should be justified in objective reality. The fact that it has no such justification in its domain of operation proves that it is useless.

PS. Regarding your bizarre claims about natural phenomena being caused by "karmic" influences rather than physical ones, I hope you will understand if I respond by simply laughing at them. See Occam's Razor.

Excuse me if I reply to this later, lunch break's over.

[Sokartawi]

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The earth is flat used to be quite simple too, is it not?

Until you looked at the facts

Back in the old days there was no proof to the contriary yet.

[frigidmagi]

So the Greeks magically yanked this idea from their ass? Go learn history, girl.

[Pcm979]

As for schooling, I did not want to go there and even had to be dragged there kicking and screaming. The day I was no longer required by law to go there, I left.

Well, that explains a thing or two.

[Lagmonster]

There is no way of telling if you are lying.

Or exaggerating, which is most likely. I find that most believers in mystical phenomena rely heavily on undocumented recollections of events, for which we have only the infallible perfection of their photographic memories as proof. Even if they're honest, that's a bullshit standard. Human memory is not an accurate recording device; the history of bad eyewitness identifications in court should prove that.

I remember you getting into this in some small detail over ghostly experiences, in another thread. Fact of the matter is this: It is almost physically impossible to discern between an actual memory and one which is generated or enhanced by imagination.

There is even an extreme version of this, called False Memory Syndrome, in which people suddenly 'recall' abuses suffered as children and often take legal action against parents and teachers based on a memory that doesn't exist but which they fabricated for themselves following some other depression or recent trauma.

[Julhelm]

This thread makes baby Jesus cry.

[LadyTevar]

The ideal end result could be discribed as the eradication of karma. People accumulate this karma by doing evil actions (people that kill deserve death). Note this is on a very individual level, as each person accumulates his own karma as consequence of his actions. Thus, morality should prevent the individual from doing evil actions, which earns them karma. This is also why I say that people should not do evil to prevent evil from happening, because that way they as an individual accumulate karma, and will keep things going. I know that people might suffer if no evil is used to stop them. But it's better to suffer a wrong then to do one, I'd say.

Karma is the balance of your life, good deeds and bad. Each bad deed returns to you threefold, each good deed tenfold.

But what is the return when you do nothing at all?

I'm not saying you should do nothing at all. In the case of the murderer scenario you should try to stop the killer in a non-lethal way, in the case of the tidal wave it's your duty to warn these people and save their lives.

Yet did you not say above that if the city was full of soldiers, you'd not warn them?

What would that do your Karma?

[Pcm979]

Aha, but soldiers deserve to die. Also, since she didn't cause the tidal wave, she isn't responsible for it.

Yeah right.

[LadyTevar]

Just out of curiosity (I'm being good and staying the hell out of this particular debate/shitfest/whatever-it-is) wat's the explanation for her experiences? Assuming of course she's not full of shit... Please reply when you get a chance and sorry to intrude.

The first two are easily explained by natural affinity, and also by the fact that she had been painstakingly tutored ALREADY in learning how to write normally before she was given the calligraphy pen.

The kind of writing you learn from school and the writing that you have to do with calligraphy is totally different.

That depends on the calligraphy hand you're using. Uncial uses several letters that are very close to the block lettering taught in 1st grade. Look at the font we're writing in. The a, the m & n, the r.... uncial-style writing. I picked up Calligraphy within a month, myself, learning the Uncial variations. I've done entire SCA awards scrolls, wedding invites, signed Xmas cards... it's not as hard as you think.

Now, if you're talking the Gothic Calligraphy, yes, that's harder to do.

[Alyrium Denryle]

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The earth is flat used to be quite simple too, is it not?

Until you looked at the facts

Back in the old days there was no proof to the contriary yet.

The Greeks, operting out of Alexandria IIRC found that one out, and later, they calculated the size of the earth very accuratly.

[Ted C]

Somewhat, let me explain. When someone kills, he must come to understand that killing is wrong, and change his actions and way of thinking to a way that it makes him unable and unwilling to kill again. The usual way that is done is getting this person killed, so he realizes it wasn't a pleasant thing, thus he will avoid doing such an unpleasant thing to others. If there are other ways that makes him stop killing, then he is free from karma as well. Killing a person once a year and throwing two lifelines a year doesn't change the fact that this person is also performing evil actions, and the good actions will not cancel that out.

So you're defining the "karmic consequence" as a change in behavior? Either you die (and therefore can't kill again) or you stop killing?

Starvation and poverty would be prevented. I believe disease is either a result of stress or karma, or it can be overcome by willpower.

You're starting to sound positively delusional. Cause-and-effect relationships for various diseases have been well established by empirical studies, and "karma" has never been shown to be a factor.

As for the natural disasters, good karma would prevent people from harm. Or maybe it's in their own interest since they have to reincarnate elsewhere.

You're starting to sound frighteningly like a fundamentalist Christian. If someone dies in a natural event, you can apparently attribute the person's death to bad karma. If you can't justify bad karma, then you just attribute the person's death to good karma by assuming they moved on to a better reincarnation.

Do you see the insanity in that mindset? It effectively justifies any action (or inaction) on your part by totally blaming unfortunate events on the person to whom they happen. Fundamentalist Christians have used essentially the same argument to excuse their atrocities for centuries: if they killed someone, that person was either a deserving unbeliever or an innocent taken to heaven. Either way, they could justify murder. I realize you're not trying to justify murder, but the mentality of absolution for everything you do is essentially the same.

MODS: Would it be possible to split the "Sokartawi's Philosophy" argument to a separate thread? It seems to have taken on a life of its own.

[SirNitram]

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The earth is flat used to be quite simple too, is it not?

Until you looked at the facts

Back in the old days there was no proof to the contriary yet.

So 'back in the old days' is what exactly? I'm betting you're going to spew some utter lie about the middle ages. The world being round was known by the Egyptians(Sorry, Frigid.), who were able to figure out why a star vanished beneath the horizon when you went south. Of course, they also calculated the circumference of the world to within a 1% margin of error.

Everyone after the Egyptians who beleived the world was flat were just a bunch of morons who beleived their religions over the evidence of hard work and investigation. Sounds like someone else in this thread..

[El Moose Monstero]

. Until you looked at the facts

Back in the old days there was no proof to the contriary yet.

The Greeks, operting out of Alexandria IIRC found that one out, and later, they calculated the size of the earth very accuratly.

If I recall, it was all to do with the shadows cast at midday by obelisks at two different locations, which they then used to calculate the curvature of the Earth and as you said, werent too far wrong.

[SirNitram]

Back in the old days there was no proof to the contriary yet.

The Greeks, operting out of Alexandria IIRC found that one out, and later, they calculated the size of the earth very accuratly.

If I recall, it was all to do with the shadows cast at midday by obelisks at two different locations, which they then used to calculate the curvature of the Earth and as you said, werent too far wrong.

Not obelisks, a specific well and one thirty miles south of it. Really a clever way of working it out, really. But that the world was round was known since they started going north and south and seeing stars vanish or appear on the horizon.

[Beowulf]

I'll repeat: Duty is a moral obligation. If it is your duty to warn the city that a tidal wave will hit, then you are morally wrong to not do so. If it is not morally wrong to not warn the city about the tidal wave, how can it be your duty?

[Darth Wong]

Irrelevant. You exist, and unless you have never used electricity, manufactuerd goods, medicine, technology of any kind (a moot point since you are communicating with me now over the Internet), or any sort of social services whatsoever including schooling, you have used the benefits given by society. Society, in turn, demands certain social responsibilities from you..

I pay for all those services, so I owe them nothing more.

Incorrect. The entire system of monetary exchange is a societal invention. If you reject society and the obligations that go along with being a member of it, then you have no right to use money at all. The very concept of money is a social one. Same goes for the benefits of science: you did not pay for them; they accrue as a benefit of human society and are defined only because of the activities of human society.

As for schooling, I did not want to go there and even had to be dragged there kicking and screaming. The day I was no longer required by law to go there, I left.

Yet you continue to use the knowledge given to you there, which is how you are able to communicate with me now. I am aware of your difficult experiences earlier in your life, and I think it should be obvious that your judgements on this matter are based on emotion rather than logic.

And who decides that this choice is accompanied by that duty? You? What give you the right to make that decision? Suppose a manufacturer decides to make a product but declares that he does not think this action comes with any duties. Who are you to say that he is wrong?.

Because he's directly responsible for harming others if he does not do this duty, which is to be avoided with my system of morals.

He has a duty because if he doesn't accept this duty, then he is responsible for harming others through inaction? I hope you realize that you just contradicted the living shit out of yourself. Did it hurt?

PS. There are other logical problems with your argument. For example, you state that there is good karma associated with good acts such as preventing death, and bad karma associated with bad acts such as causing death. Ergo, it stands to reason, using your own system, that a sufficiently large good act can cancel out a bad act such as killing someone. The only way to evade this problem while continuing to support your absolutist position is to assume that the negative karma associated with killing someone is infinite. But if it is infinite, then there is no difference in bad karma between killing just once and killing a million times: do you believe that?

[Julhelm]

Seeing as how I've managed to catch a flu, it can be safely concluded that I lack the good karma required to overcome such hassles with willpower.

[Julhelm]

This is my opinion you were not there when she was harrassing me and my husband over MSN so you can't accuratly fight me about this. Stop it !

Out of curiousity: How is it possible to be harassed over msn when you have an almighty "block"-button?

[Admiral Valdemar]

I NEVER said materialism has anything to do with cowardism, I was trying to say that she is materialistic and she is a coward. This is my opinion you were not there when she was harrassing me and my husband over MSN so you can't accuratly fight me about this. Stop it !

Woah, there. Calm down. Mike was simply making an observation, he didn't mean any harm by it. If Shakkara is being bitchy on MSN, then block her. Simple as.

[Master of Ossus]

And who decides that this choice is accompanied by that duty? You? What give you the right to make that decision? Suppose a manufacturer decides to make a product but declares that he does not think this action comes with any duties. Who are you to say that he is wrong?.

Because he's directly responsible for harming others if he does not do this duty, which is to be avoided with my system of morals.

This from someone who has built an entire system of morality out of shirking responsibility and not having duties to do anything to protect anyone.

I pay for all those services, so I owe them nothing more. As for schooling, I did not want to go there and even had to be dragged there kicking and screaming. The day I was no longer required by law to go there, I left.

Who cares? You continue to use the benefits that you received while in school; moreover your kicking and screaming off to school is totally irrelevant, since you partook in activities while you were there.

lunch break's over.

You'd better have a damn good reply for your utter inconsistency and inability to explain the purpose of your moral code.

[Sokartawi]

Back in time, where to start today... Let's take this one first...

The first two are easily explained by natural affinity, and also by the fact that she had been painstakingly tutored ALREADY in learning how to write normally before she was given the calligraphy pen.

The kind of writing you learn from school and the writing that you have to do with calligraphy is totally different.

That depends on the calligraphy hand you're using. Uncial uses several letters that are very close to the block lettering taught in 1st grade. Look at the font we're writing in. The a, the m & n, the r.... uncial-style writing. I picked up Calligraphy within a month, myself, learning the Uncial variations. I've done entire SCA awards scrolls, wedding invites, signed Xmas cards... it's not as hard as you think.

Now, if you're talking the Gothic Calligraphy, yes, that's harder to do.

Well I wrote something, couldn't find my pen so had to use a broken one that was leaking allover, but no matter, it gives the idea, you take a look at it...

This is my normal writing, which is pretty quick, which I used at school most of the time:


Also got this one, but not using it much since it takes more time.


I suppose this is what you refer to as gothic but I'm not sure, you tell me.

[Sokartawi]

I NEVER said materialism has anything to do with cowardism, I was trying to say that she is materialistic and she is a coward. This is my opinion you were not there when she was harrassing me and my husband over MSN so you can't accuratly fight me about this. Stop it !

We already talked that over and I came to the conclusion that it was not harrasment since neither you nor your husband indicated that they wanted to stop the conversation. In fact you two not only initiated the conversations, you also kept it going. So stop making these false accusations, again.

[Sokartawi]

Been in lifethreatening situation twice, including one attempted robbery with three guys of which at least one had a knife.

I don't seem to have any sense of self-preservation.

Were you frightened?

I just saw this thread and I'm sorry if this has been answered or if anyone gets annoyed for whatever reason...

The answer to your question is NO.
When she was harrassing me over MSN she told me these stories and she said she was not scared but that the only thing she was thinking was that she didn't want to lose her new jacket or that she would be upset if her jacket was gonna get ruined.

She's a materialistic coward who cares for nobody but herself but tries to hide it by saying that people should not die for any reason. I think she has some kind of phycological problem as well.

And I also told you that I do not like revealing any part of my private conversation with you or your husband on this forum or any other place in public view. I urge you to stop these actions.

[LadyTevar]

Well I wrote something, couldn't find my pen so had to use a broken one that was leaking allover, but no matter, it gives the idea, you take a look at it...

This is my normal writing, which is pretty quick, which I used at school most of the time:


Also got this one, but not using it much since it takes more time.


I suppose this is what you refer to as gothic but I'm not sure, you tell me.

First one, Uncial variant. Second is a Gothic hand.