Creationism and Second Law of Thermodynamics
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Creationism and Second Law of Thermodynamics
Hey all,
I'm sorry if this has been asked before or is answered somewhere, but I have a friend who's trying to settle the evolution vs. creationism debate with:
"Second Law of Thermodynamics: Entropy (Chaos) will always increase within a closed system
Evolution defies the Second Law of Thermodynamics because [the Second Law of Thermodynamics] basically states that things will always get worse and worse. Evolution says that things started as a molecole and have gradually gotten better and better (from single-cells to humans in this case), which is contrary to "chaos increasing in a closed system."
Creationism, on the other hand, satisfies the Second Law because it says that man and the Earth were perfect when God first created them, but life has progressively gotten worse due to the introduction of death, pain, and sin."
Now, I'm wondering if the Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to something that is rather subjective (what is better or worse?). And I've noticed that this requires the assumption that things really happened according to what the Bible says.
Next, he says that's it's OK to teach creationism/Christianity in schools because it's not really shoving religion down out throats; it's just providing students with both sides of the story (evolution and creationism).
I've tried asking him what makes Christianity and Genesis correct in light of other religions (why is Christianity more "right" than Hindu, Native, or Greek?), but have gotten no meaningful answer. I've also asked him to stop attacking evolution and start defending creationism and was answered with: it's more logical that God should create the earth; it's easier for God to create man than to create a cell and let evolution take its course." When I pointed out that disproving evolution wouldn't automatically make Christian creationism right, he said: "There's hardly a third alternative". This implies that he doesn't care if what is taught is right or wrong; only cares about teaching creationism and by extension Christianity to the world.
When I've argued that teaching creationism would be teaching religion, he responds with "Evolution is a religion too; it has no scientific proof, it can not be scientifically demonstrated or simulated." Now, I've read Mike's creationism site (or rather skimmed over it) and it mentions that this has been done...
And finally, he refutes the Bible quote of Pi being exactly 3 by saying that there was a lip; the liquid was 30 cubits across but the actual sea (from one end to the other) was 10 cubits because the tops tapered out, increasing the distance from one end to the other.
Any thoughts anyone?
I'm sorry if this has been asked before or is answered somewhere, but I have a friend who's trying to settle the evolution vs. creationism debate with:
"Second Law of Thermodynamics: Entropy (Chaos) will always increase within a closed system
Evolution defies the Second Law of Thermodynamics because [the Second Law of Thermodynamics] basically states that things will always get worse and worse. Evolution says that things started as a molecole and have gradually gotten better and better (from single-cells to humans in this case), which is contrary to "chaos increasing in a closed system."
Creationism, on the other hand, satisfies the Second Law because it says that man and the Earth were perfect when God first created them, but life has progressively gotten worse due to the introduction of death, pain, and sin."
Now, I'm wondering if the Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to something that is rather subjective (what is better or worse?). And I've noticed that this requires the assumption that things really happened according to what the Bible says.
Next, he says that's it's OK to teach creationism/Christianity in schools because it's not really shoving religion down out throats; it's just providing students with both sides of the story (evolution and creationism).
I've tried asking him what makes Christianity and Genesis correct in light of other religions (why is Christianity more "right" than Hindu, Native, or Greek?), but have gotten no meaningful answer. I've also asked him to stop attacking evolution and start defending creationism and was answered with: it's more logical that God should create the earth; it's easier for God to create man than to create a cell and let evolution take its course." When I pointed out that disproving evolution wouldn't automatically make Christian creationism right, he said: "There's hardly a third alternative". This implies that he doesn't care if what is taught is right or wrong; only cares about teaching creationism and by extension Christianity to the world.
When I've argued that teaching creationism would be teaching religion, he responds with "Evolution is a religion too; it has no scientific proof, it can not be scientifically demonstrated or simulated." Now, I've read Mike's creationism site (or rather skimmed over it) and it mentions that this has been done...
And finally, he refutes the Bible quote of Pi being exactly 3 by saying that there was a lip; the liquid was 30 cubits across but the actual sea (from one end to the other) was 10 cubits because the tops tapered out, increasing the distance from one end to the other.
Any thoughts anyone?
Last edited by Ignorant_Boy on 2002-10-21 06:52pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Creationism defies nuclear physics by stating that the sun and stars were created after the Earth.
Furthermore, your body is not a closed system, and creationist rhetoric equating chaotic systems with evil has absolutely no basis in science.
Furthermore, your body is not a closed system, and creationist rhetoric equating chaotic systems with evil has absolutely no basis in science.
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Ask this idiot to explain why entropy causes sin, pain, and evil. Ask him to define entropy. He obviously has no fucking idea what he's talking about.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
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Better yet, ask him to devise an experiment to demonstrate what entropy is. Any time some creationist jack-off starts spouting about scientific laws or theories, ask him to tell you how to demonstrate those laws through experiment.Ask him to define entropy. He obviously has no fucking idea what he's talking about.
By the way, if the entire scientific community is engaged in a massive cover-up operation of evolution's supposedly glaring flaws, then how can they trust the the second law of thermodynamics isn't similarly bunk?
Last edited by Durandal on 2002-10-21 07:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Come live in TorontoIgnorant_Boy wrote:Ok thanks everyone. I'll tell what happens tomorrow.
Hey Darth Wong, he's 16 and I'm 15; in other words a few kids learning science under Atlantic Canada's education system
I know it's no excuse... but it's the best we have...
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Or try to cut them off by confidently stating that since entropy is increasing, complexity must also be increasing (the exact opposite of what they planned to say), and then watch the glazed look in their eyes.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Hell, I never learned Thermodynamics in school, and even I know that the 2nd Law argument is invalid because it assumes animals are closed systems (what do creationists think lungs are doing? Suporting our bodies with perpetual-motion untill God wills us to die?).
Again, nice to see Creationists attacking premises for the wrong theories again. Aren't these the same kids who score goals for the wrong team in middle-school soccer?
Again, nice to see Creationists attacking premises for the wrong theories again. Aren't these the same kids who score goals for the wrong team in middle-school soccer?
By His Word...
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High school, man. High school.Darth Utsanomiko wrote:Hell, I never learned Thermodynamics in school, and even I know that the 2nd Law argument is invalid because it assumes animals are closed systems (what do creationists think lungs are doing? Suporting our bodies with perpetual-motion untill God wills us to die?).
Again, nice to see Creationists attacking premises for the wrong theories again. Aren't these the same kids who score goals for the wrong team in middle-school soccer?
What I find really interesting is that this is the guy who got 99% in Grade 10 science and 100% in Grade 10 math. He's very logical and insightful at politics, design, and logic... EXCEPT when it comes to religion. God, I just don't understand that....
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Re: Creationism and Second Law of Thermodynamics
If you want a laugh, tell him that if christian creationism is taught as a valid theory then so should the theorys of Buddism, Hinduism, the Maori,, Shinto and the equelly valid ideals of Scientology.Ignorant_Boy wrote:
Next, he says that's it's OK to teach creationism/Christianity in schools because it's not really shoving religion down out throats; it's just providing students with both sides of the story (evolution and creationism).
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Re: Creationism and Second Law of Thermodynamics
Been there; done that. He replied with: "Then you can't teach evolution because it's a religion. The religion of those who have no religion (or something like that)."Stuart Mackey wrote:If you want a laugh, tell him that if christian creationism is taught as a valid theory then so should the theorys of Buddism, Hinduism, the Maori,, Shinto and the equelly valid ideals of Scientology.Ignorant_Boy wrote:
Next, he says that's it's OK to teach creationism/Christianity in schools because it's not really shoving religion down out throats; it's just providing students with both sides of the story (evolution and creationism).
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Re: Creationism and Second Law of Thermodynamics
Bummer, then loan him a tenner and tell him to buy a sense of humourIgnorant_Boy wrote:Been there; done that. He replied with: "Then you can't teach evolution because it's a religion. The religion of those who have no religion (or something like that)."Stuart Mackey wrote:If you want a laugh, tell him that if christian creationism is taught as a valid theory then so should the theorys of Buddism, Hinduism, the Maori,, Shinto and the equelly valid ideals of Scientology.Ignorant_Boy wrote:
Next, he says that's it's OK to teach creationism/Christianity in schools because it's not really shoving religion down out throats; it's just providing students with both sides of the story (evolution and creationism).
On the other hand he is 16, he may well grow out of it.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"
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Re: Creationism and Second Law of Thermodynamics
The religion of reality-worship. That's different.Ignorant_Boy wrote:Been there; done that. He replied with: "Then you can't teach evolution because it's a religion. The religion of those who have no religion (or something like that)."
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Re: Creationism and Second Law of Thermodynamics
My son, tell him I said he needs to re-evaluate his priorities in life, as I only help those who help themselfs and your freind is shooting himself in the foot.Ignorant_Boy wrote:Been there; done that. He replied with: "Then you can't teach evolution because it's a religion. The religion of those who have no religion (or something like that)."Stuart Mackey wrote:If you want a laugh, tell him that if christian creationism is taught as a valid theory then so should the theorys of Buddism, Hinduism, the Maori,, Shinto and the equelly valid ideals of Scientology.Ignorant_Boy wrote:
Next, he says that's it's OK to teach creationism/Christianity in schools because it's not really shoving religion down out throats; it's just providing students with both sides of the story (evolution and creationism).
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Christ, why can't I ever be at the start of these threads. I have just finished a good row over the second law, entropic increase and its numerous misinterpretations with one of the resident creationist types on SB. (You SBers know who I mean: Mr quote-notable-people-to-disguise-not-understanding-the-argument.) I can only assume that discussion is over, since he has left and never again returned to it, which I can only be thankful for.
I have seen creationist sites which list the second law as their 'strongest argument' and really this amply illustrates the combination of ignorance and the arrogance to think your ignorance doesn't matter.
I have seen creationist sites which list the second law as their 'strongest argument' and really this amply illustrates the combination of ignorance and the arrogance to think your ignorance doesn't matter.
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I do. I believe it's called a security blanket. It's so much easier for these little punks to have the world simplified and spoon-fed to them than to find their own damn answers.Ignorant_Boy wrote:He's very logical and insightful at politics, design, and logic... EXCEPT when it comes to religion. God, I just don't understand that....
By His Word...
The gall of some creationists.
Yeah, the entire scientific community would miss something like a theory violating the SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS!!!
Good thing we have bible-thumping morons to help those poor scientists out ...
Yeah, the entire scientific community would miss something like a theory violating the SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS!!!
Good thing we have bible-thumping morons to help those poor scientists out ...
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His reply: "I'll think about it, but I do have rebuttals for most of these points. Also, Internet message boards are hardly a bastion of science." I told him about Mike's credetials (a appear to authority, I realize but anyway... ) and he basically said "civil engineer???"
Either way, thanks again everyone for all the input.
Either way, thanks again everyone for all the input.
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Kind of cocky, isn't he?Ignorant_Boy wrote:His reply: "I'll think about it, but I do have rebuttals for most of these points. Also, Internet message boards are hardly a bastion of science." I told him about Mike's credetials (a appear to authority, I realize but anyway... ) and he basically said "civil engineer???"
Either way, thanks again everyone for all the input.
I await his rebuttals.
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Too bad he's still running dialup internet; otherwise I'd see if he'd come here directly. And I don't feel like printing off Mike's entire page...Antediluvian wrote:Kind of cocky, isn't he?Ignorant_Boy wrote:His reply: "I'll think about it, but I do have rebuttals for most of these points. Also, Internet message boards are hardly a bastion of science." I told him about Mike's credetials (a appear to authority, I realize but anyway... ) and he basically said "civil engineer???"
Either way, thanks again everyone for all the input.
I await his rebuttals.
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Right now the "Great Watchmaker" angle is real popular among Creationists-- that there was no way for so complex an organ as the eye to evolve 'by accident' and that it would be foolish to think that an eye just grew out of the side of a frog one day and he decided to keep it. They point to mutations in nature and say that 'a mutation is a bad thing, a deformity resulting in sterility, so no random series of mutations can produce a viable being.'
They're getting big-budget help, too, the Jehova's Witnesses dropped off a very impressively done hardback book with my friend Erin the other day. It was done up with all the nice pictures of trilobites and Neanderthals, etc...
I think these folks just don't comprehend how much time is involved with "4.6 billion years" and that there is a difference between 'mutation' and 'adaption'. But the 'Great Watchmaker' argument is gaining ground, because it wraps Creation up in a bunch of quasi-scientific drool that makes it easier to swallow for some people.
They're getting big-budget help, too, the Jehova's Witnesses dropped off a very impressively done hardback book with my friend Erin the other day. It was done up with all the nice pictures of trilobites and Neanderthals, etc...
I think these folks just don't comprehend how much time is involved with "4.6 billion years" and that there is a difference between 'mutation' and 'adaption'. But the 'Great Watchmaker' argument is gaining ground, because it wraps Creation up in a bunch of quasi-scientific drool that makes it easier to swallow for some people.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Indeed, and most people are simply too stupid to realize that it isn't valid science, even if you explain why it isn't in absolutely excrutiating detail. I E-mailed the Ohio State Board of Education outlining very specific reasons as to why intelligent design is blatantly unscientific in every conceivable way, and they still voted to let each individual district decide on whether or not to teach intelligent design. Simply unbelievable.
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"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion