The Salvation War: Pantheocide Epilogue Up

[westrim]

Really?

gibberishcut

Oh wait that might involve the HEA/protagonists making believable mistakes...

I'm pretty sure you meant , but my response is definitely , or possibly if I'm feeling less rude. That I'm is a given.

Your wankery aside, it is very difficult for writers to show the absence of something in writing, especially 2 years after the fact, especially something that can't be brought up physically like general supplies. Stuart has used the quite workable method of stating such things in meetings where characters are telling each other information to relay this several times- by this point it should be background knowledge for the reader, assuming they haven't been reading a chapter a week (insert emoticon for whistling to oneself here.)

EDIT: Okay, so that gibberish was supposed to mean something. If you want to try showing something, actually show it next time; don't expect us to know what CAS means or that people saying "scrub the mission." "Why?" "Just scrub it." = no supplies. It rather invalidates your point on showing information when you can't.

The gist of it is, "dudes call down a bomb on something. A demon barracks or whatever. the HEA is having supply difficulties => bombs/arty aren't used for just anything => HQ calls them off because they fucked up the supply numbers and there's no arty in range because they didn't think they'd need it => dudes have to improvise."

The bolded part was never said, and the italicized section was barely inferred. Okay, I'm done with this.


On the library debate; I'm sure that there are archives, collecting records and information, but there are few libraries, collecting knowledge; and the ones that exist are private like Micheal's presumed collection, not public.

[Ryan Thunder]

I'm pretty sure you meant , but my response is definitely , or possibly if I'm feeling less rude. That I'm is a given.

Your rage amuses me.

Your wankery aside, it is very difficult for writers to show the absence of something in writing, especially 2 years after the fact, especially something that can't be brought up physically like general supplies. Stuart has used the quite workable method of stating such things in meetings where characters are telling each other information to relay this several times- by this point it should be background knowledge for the reader, assuming they haven't been reading a chapter a week (insert emoticon for whistling to oneself here.)

"Sir, we aren't getting enough MREs," or "We may be sending you solid cheese MREs because they were at the bottom of the pile of crates," or a conversation between some recurring soldier characters over their opinions of said solid cheese MREs sounds pretty straightforward. "I'm going to regret this." "Yes, we will."

EDIT: Okay, so that gibberish was supposed to mean something. If you want to try showing something, actually show it next time; don't expect us to know what CAS means or that people saying "scrub the mission." "Why?" "Just scrub it." = no supplies. It rather invalidates your point on showing information when you can't.

What's hilarious is that
1. Almost nothing believably close to evidence of supply constraints ever seems to occur. (Maybe he mentioned something about HEAD shells being in short supply, but, unsurprisingly, this had next to no effect on the warmaking ability of the unit in question.)
2. Stuart has made use of 8+ letter acronymns in this very novel and neglected to expand them in context. Anybody who gave a shit was ignored, so I expect you to have the decency to not give a shit when I use a common acronymn for "close air support" and a military euphemism for "cancel".
3. I wrote that in less than five minutes. Yeah, of course it sucks. I'm sure Stuart wouldn't have any trouble contriving a scenario where a lack of supplies fucks things up for somebody. Anybody.

Not that any of it matters, thanks to useless boors like you. Good story-telling usually implies in-context 'realism', not the other way around. (hint: if you can't write tension in without violating your sensibilities, perhaps you should pick a different setting where you can? 1960s-1970s Earth, say?)

Hell, those soldiers in the Hellpit going all guerrilla with HEA-supplied gear could've had something like;
"What about the C4?"
"We didn't get any, after all. The stuff doesn't grow on trees, you know."

[CaptainChewbacca]

We have ONE commando team in the hellpit and you think we'd under-supply THEM?

The gist of it is, "dudes call down a bomb on something. A demon barracks or whatever. the HEA is having supply difficulties => bombs/arty aren't used for just anything => HQ calls them off because they fucked up the supply numbers and there's no arty in range because they didn't think they'd need it => dudes have to improvise."

That's not Salvation War. That's Ryan Thunder's Infernal Adventure, and you're welcome to write a story about how plucky, falliable, lovable humans (all with southern accents, I'm sure) beat the forces of hell with old land mines and duct tape.

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood.

[Edward Yee]

Does Michael know that Petraeus knows that Zacharael has ambitions? And does Petraeus know that Michael knows that he knows? Intel work can be so much fun sometimes.

In both cases, it doesn't entirely matter -- though "complete" knowledge might be needed before they could take decision action against one another, both are hedging their bets. Petraeus didn't completely fall for "it," even if he can't see who's behind the circumstance. Moreover, he's already working to narrow Michael's public influence -- depose, exile, confine, and narrow down the "approved" line of communication to just Leilah. I'm guessing that implicitly he's intending to bar Michael from communicating directly with Raphael, Gabriel, Charleine and Leilah, but I didn't see that; Michael doesn't seem to yet know that Petraeus "knows," on the other hand, even while having hedged his bets so that so far it's going his way... even if he may have to adjust his goals.

Damn, that's just what we needed. Petraeus thought. Michael turning out to be some sort of Heavenly Schindler. The silver-blooded Pimpernel already. "Doctor, what's the mound over there?"

Translation: "Guh-reat... now there's somebody that might actually object out of personal sense of gratitude if I decide to have him liquidated."

I think we ought to keep our Master Mason out where we can watch him very carefully."

Stuart, did you mean "out in the open," or is this a typo?

Again, I don't see much to argue with your main point, except that it's likely that Petraeus won't trust Michael further than he can throw him when his back is acting up. Micheal will have to rule as a hidden voice behind the throne.

Pretty much, Petraeus already knew not to let himself be personally vulnerable... though, I'm guessing that the Osprey would have had to fly ahead of Michael-lan because of the field of fire on that ramp gun.

One of the amusing things that's made TSW entertaining for me is a sense that it screams "Real life says 'FUCK YOU story conventions!' because that would require us to be in danger."

[westrim]

Your rage amuses me.

You're assumption that I was angry amuses me. Very little riles me on the 'net, and you'll notice if it does when I start using expletives. I use emoticons when I'm being flippant.

1. Almost nothing believably close to evidence of supply constraints ever seems to occur. (Maybe he mentioned something about HEAD shells being in short supply, but, unsurprisingly, this had next to no effect on the warmaking ability of the unit in question.)
2. Stuart has made use of 8+ letter acronyms in this very novel and neglected to expand them in context. Anybody who gave a shit was ignored, so I expect you to have the decency to not give a shit when I use a common acronym for "close air support" and a military euphemism for "cancel".
3. I wrote that in less than five minutes. Yeah, of course it sucks. I'm sure Stuart wouldn't have any trouble contriving a scenario where a lack of supplies fucks things up for somebody. Anybody.

1. Just because you can keep going doesn't mean the car isn't low on gas, and you don't slow down when you can see the guys who stole your souls just over the next hill.
2. I don't like that he has Americans say "hokay", but he has an editor and is specifically trying to use military terms that the reader can look up or understand from context. You were trying to communicate a criticism and failed.
I know what scrub means, I was criticizing your assumption that mission canceled= we don't have the tools to do the job, and that a reader would know that. As for CAS, try googling it. I had to go through 5 steps to find it on Wikipedia, and that was after you explained it and I knew what the destination was (googled, click wiki entry on CAS registry number, search cas, for abbreviations see CAS, and the actual page). Even then, in military terminology it also stood for three other terms including my favorite, Cost Accounting Standards.
3. You can edit posts, you know. Its perfectly fine to clean up after yourself, that's why you have the ability.

Not that any of it matters, thanks to useless boors like you. Good story-telling usually implies in-context 'realism', not the other way around. (hint: if you can't write tension in without violating your sensibilities, perhaps you should pick a different setting where you can? 1960s-1970s Earth, say?)

Ultimately, he didn't write it exactly the way you wanted and you're complaining about it without any acknowledgment that he is not the same person as you, and will not do things exactly the way you want. A while ago I questioned the decision for F-22s over the F-35 or older aircraft being put back into production, but I was always clear that this was my opinion, not The Way It Should Be (TWISB?) You are insisting that by not doing it your way the story is certainly with no doubt worse off, not just different.

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood.

Ninja's in Robin Hood would be awesome though. I am now imagining the merry men tossing shurikens from the trees at the Sheriff's samurai! This could be the greatest crossover since Jane Austen and Zombies!

[Brovane]

Even coming when it did, the balance had been fine indeed. Had the human armies run out of ammunition during the Curbstomp War or if Heaven had followed up with an invasion immediately after the fall of Hell, things might have been different.

I really have a hard time with this line. At the end of the day between Russia and the USA Armed Forces there was enough nuclear devicess to destroy all of Satan's and Yahweh armies hundreds of times over. Maybe coming from the Thailand general she doesn't grasp fully the destructive power that resides in Russia and US nuclear arsenal. I am still suprised in some ways that Russia and the US went through all the effort in Hell to actually defend against Satan's armies with mostly conventional weapons with a few chemical weapons thrown in. I would have thought that just by using a few nuclear devices Satan's forces would have been thinned out greatly. Even if the human armies started to run out of ammo they hold the ultimate trump card, the nuclear arsenal. While it was a more interesting story reading about the mass of conventional forces. However it would have seemed to be more efficient to let a couple of B-52 to go over the mass of Satan armies and drop a few nuclear gravity B-83 and B-61 devices and then let the conventional forces mop up what was left. Why even fight you opponent when you can just destroy them? You have bronze age tactics of these forces massing themselves together to attack the human army. Seems a perfect target for a few well placed nuclear initiations.

[Peptuck]

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood.

Sigged. This is the truth.

[Stark]

I guess that invalidates the entire concept of literary criticism, then.

Luckily for this story.

[westrim]

I guess that invalidates the entire concept of literary criticism, then.

Luckily for this story.

No, it's about people who read/watch/whatever something with preformed story slots, then complain when it doesn't meet them. They want a film about friggin toys to not have any brand names, that sort of thing.

Why even fight you opponent when you can just destroy them? You have bronze age tactics of these forces massing themselves together to attack the human army. Seems a perfect target for a few well placed nuclear initiations.

You should probably read around a bit more...

[Edward Yee]

While it was a more interesting story reading about the mass of conventional forces. However it would have seemed to be more efficient to let a couple of B-52 to go over the mass of Satan armies and drop a few nuclear gravity B-83 and B-61 devices and then let the conventional forces mop up what was left. Why even fight you opponent when you can just destroy them? You have bronze age tactics of these forces massing themselves together to attack the human army. Seems a perfect target for a few well placed nuclear initiations.

Previously Stuart has stated that had air support (for ground forces) not been available, the nukes would have been set off a long time ago; neither of those being the case was Stuart's own concession to "for the sake of a story," and he has made several in-universe explanations for why they weren't resorted to earlier besides air support availability.

Although, if anyone from any of the bubble worlds saw the Incomparable Legion of Light go up, cat's out of the bag now...

[CaptainChewbacca]

Even coming when it did, the balance had been fine indeed. Had the human armies run out of ammunition during the Curbstomp War or if Heaven had followed up with an invasion immediately after the fall of Hell, things might have been different.

I really have a hard time with this line. At the end of the day between Russia and the USA Armed Forces there was enough nuclear devicess to destroy all of Satan's and Yahweh armies hundreds of times over. Maybe coming from the Thailand general she doesn't grasp fully the destructive power that resides in Russia and US nuclear arsenal. I am still suprised in some ways that Russia and the US went through all the effort in Hell to actually defend against Satan's armies with mostly conventional weapons with a few chemical weapons thrown in.

The 'near thing' wasn't the Battle of the Phlegethon, it was the Battle of Hit. The armies of hell came INSANELY close to breaking through the allied lines, at which point they would have been almost impossible to contain without nuking large chunks of the middle east.

[Edward Yee]

While it was a danger to the allied army, not so much by a breakthrough -- but rather, by the risk of Abigor's army outflanking them from the north: if Hit were to fall, "he can cross the Euphrates and come down between the river and the Buhayrat ath Thatthar. Cut us off from our supply lines," said by CPT Ellen Yarborough (USA) to GEN Petraeus back in Armageddon?, Chapter 17. Dunno which unit was east of Aqabah, but 4th Brigade, 10th Mountain Division (USA, callsign "Mango Four") was the one chewed up inside Hit.

[CaptainChewbacca]

And at that point they would have been able to envelop and destroy the single largest military force on earth, and the only thing between the hellmouth and civilization. They would'nt have gone global, but they would have taken a chunk out of the mideast and Lucifer might have been bold enough to drop a second force somewhere else.

[wickeddyno]

Maybe the published version should play up this aspect of how close it was? I missed that until the wookie explained things.

[Edward Yee]

Not sure about the "envelopment" part -- there was the south flank, after all, and presumably the allied forces would have rushed air power from outside to attempt a breakthrough. On the other hand, had Hit been overrun to the point of Mango-Four being considered lost, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Petraeus order that the MLRS launchers intended to support them instead destroy Hit and attack the breakthrough.

As I noted in the TSW game thread, what did turn the tide at Hit was the application of CAS from helos, which was facilitated by the "clearing of the skies" at al Badiyah al Janubiyah AND on the second day (what IS the second day's battle called anyway?), though I recall Bradleys appearing to help turn the tide, along with "irregulars" with RPGs.

I agree, there's time for the published version to be more clear about these issues.

[Deebles]

And he saved Uriel from getting killed in San Diego, setting up the (tens of) thousands of deaths in Los Angeles. Again, that could be justified as helping out his side as opposed to actually killing our side.

Running into a firefight to rescue a combatant is not a war crime, no matter what war crimes the rescued combatant may go on to commit.

[Ryan Thunder]

We have ONE commando team in the hellpit and you think we'd under-supply THEM?

You seem to be very good at missing the point, here.

The gist of it is, "dudes call down a bomb on something. A demon barracks or whatever. the HEA is having supply difficulties => bombs/arty aren't used for just anything => HQ calls them off because they fucked up the supply numbers and there's no arty in range because they didn't think they'd need it => dudes have to improvise."

That's not Salvation War. That's Ryan Thunder's Infernal Adventure, and you're welcome to write a story about how plucky, falliable, lovable humans (all with southern accents, I'm sure) beat the forces of hell with old land mines and duct tape.

You're damn right it isn't Salvation War, because whether or not the protagonists can actually pull off their objectives isn't trivial from the outset.

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood.

Oh, right, I see. You actually want a hideous inversion of the usual awful Armageddon stories instead of one that's actually interesting for more than technical descriptions of modern military hardware. Good to know what the audience is here for.

[Ilya Muromets]

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood.

Oh, right, I see. You actually want a hideous inversion of the usual awful Armageddon stories instead of one that's actually interesting for more than technical descriptions of modern military hardware. Good to know what the audience is here for.

You know, I've long since stopped arguing about whether the story "works" or not because of how it's not written in dramatic narrative, since that just ends up along lines of personal preference and I have my own problems with how the story is written, but seriously? "Good to know what the audience is here for?" Glad to know you think your tastes are so superior that you thumb our noses down at us poor, tasteless nerds with no idea what "good" literature is supposed to be.

[Sophie]

I have a suggestion Ryan Thunder. Either stop reading, or stop whining. You're hurting my brain with your mindless complaining.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Good chapter (Petraeus watch your ass up there, Mikey's a sneaky bastard); craptastic bitching from Ryan (even a five-post noob is telling you to stfu!). I smell barrel bait.

[Stuart]

2. I don't like that he has Americans say "hokay",

Keisha Stevenson is modelled on a real person who really does throw in a "Hokay" as a verbal conjunction every second or third sentence (she's actually from Saint Thomas in the U.S. Virgin Islands and has an interesting mixture of French and American accents). Yes, the rest of the description applies as well.

I really have a hard time with this line. At the end of the day between Russia and the USA Armed Forces there was enough nuclear devicess to destroy all of Satan's and Yahweh armies hundreds of times over. Maybe coming from the Thailand general she doesn't grasp fully the destructive power that resides in Russia and US nuclear arsenal. I am still suprised in some ways that Russia and the US went through all the effort in Hell to actually defend against Satan's armies with mostly conventional weapons with a few chemical weapons thrown in. I would have thought that just by using a few nuclear devices Satan's forces would have been thinned out greatly. Even if the human armies started to run out of ammo they hold the ultimate trump card, the nuclear arsenal. While it was a more interesting story reading about the mass of conventional forces. However it would have seemed to be more efficient to let a couple of B-52 to go over the mass of Satan armies and drop a few nuclear gravity B-83 and B-61 devices and then let the conventional forces mop up what was left. Why even fight you opponent when you can just destroy them? You have bronze age tactics of these forces massing themselves together to attack the human army. Seems a perfect target for a few well placed nuclear initiations.

The in-story reasoning behind the reticence over using nukes was two-fold, one of them being a conscious decision to keep them back as an ace-in-the-hole in case things turned very ugly, very quickly. After all, at the time the stories were taking place, the human protagonists had no idea what they were really up against or what was still to come. In fact, to a large extent, they still don't. They know that the parts of Heaven and Hell they have invaded and occupied are at a very early stage of military development and can't cope with what is being thrown at them but they are aware there is a lot out there that is still unknown. They are also becoming aware that they are likely to run into other groups that might be a lot more dangerous. So, they are being very circumspect about what gives. The other reason is that there is an ingrained reluctance to go nuclear; it's an impressed thought pattern that doing so will have the direst of consequences. The thought pattern is that one tries everything conventional first, then goes nuclear only as a last resort.

What really saved things at Hit were the truck bombs used by the al Qaeda and Iraqi Insurgents. By blowing themselves up in the middle of the attacking Baldrick groups, they bought just enough time for the crumbling American force (who had been pushed back to their last defense line and were running out of everything - supplies, ideas and time) to consolidate in their final defense positions. The arrival of the Apaches (more precisely their ability to operate due to casualties inflicted on the harpies - one on one, an attack helicopter will outmatch a harpy but five-on-one is another matter and the odds are actually dozens-on-one) allowed the regular troops to start pushing the Baldricks out of the city.

[Deebles]

Ryan,

I got into reading this due to its compelling style, epic theme, and the wealth of speculative what-if's which this scenario opens up.

I'd agree that things fairly often seem to go a little too easily for the humans, on the whole, especially since we've seen a series of two wars against threats of an unprecedented nature where they really haven't lost a single battle. Even so, we've seen major cities hit by uber-storms, torn up by monsters, bombarded with high velocity rocks and nuked. However, the issues with the Angels and Demons being perhaps a little less savvy than they should be has largely been addressed in endless debate already: while it's easy to imagine Earth being truly screwed if Heaven struck hard and fast at or around the conclusion of the curbstomp war (a scenario only prevented by Michael's manoeverings), it's equally easy to imagine Heaven being screwed if just one demon in Hell knew how to portal from Earth to Heaven, and decided they liked angels less than humans. Neither of these would have made such a good story, however.

And the troubles, of course, are never over - even in victory, the combined forces of humanity are now faced with a double peacekeeping operation on an entirely unprecedented scale, even before getting into what challenges may lie beyond the parts of Heaven and Hell they now occupy. It'll be interesting to see how they handle it.

[John Chris]

What really saved things at Hit were the truck bombs used by the al Qaeda and Iraqi Insurgents. By blowing themselves up in the middle of the attacking Baldrick groups, they bought just enough time for the crumbling American force (who had been pushed back to their last defense line and were running out of everything - supplies, ideas and time) to consolidate in their final defense positions. The arrival of the Apaches (more precisely their ability to operate due to casualties inflicted on the harpies - one on one, an attack helicopter will outmatch a harpy but five-on-one is another matter and the odds are actually dozens-on-one) allowed the regular troops to start pushing the Baldricks out of the city.

That makes me wonder just what the hell would we do if the demons did manage to break through at Hit. I mean, I know we would eventually send in enough forces, supplies and ideas to throw the demons out of the Middle East, but in the interm, what would have been the course of action had things turned out differently? Would nukes be in the cards regardless of human casualties?

Just strikes me that it's always the little things that could have cascaded one way or another.

[Jamesfirecat]

I'm pretty sure you meant , but my response is definitely , or possibly if I'm feeling less rude. That I'm is a given.

Your rage amuses me.

Your wankery aside, it is very difficult for writers to show the absence of something in writing, especially 2 years after the fact, especially something that can't be brought up physically like general supplies. Stuart has used the quite workable method of stating such things in meetings where characters are telling each other information to relay this several times- by this point it should be background knowledge for the reader, assuming they haven't been reading a chapter a week (insert emoticon for whistling to oneself here.)

"Sir, we aren't getting enough MREs," or "We may be sending you solid cheese MREs because they were at the bottom of the pile of crates," or a conversation between some recurring soldier characters over their opinions of said solid cheese MREs sounds pretty straightforward. "I'm going to regret this." "Yes, we will."

EDIT: Okay, so that gibberish was supposed to mean something. If you want to try showing something, actually show it next time; don't expect us to know what CAS means or that people saying "scrub the mission." "Why?" "Just scrub it." = no supplies. It rather invalidates your point on showing information when you can't.

What's hilarious is that
1. Almost nothing believably close to evidence of supply constraints ever seems to occur. (Maybe he mentioned something about HEAD shells being in short supply, but, unsurprisingly, this had next to no effect on the warmaking ability of the unit in question.)
2. Stuart has made use of 8+ letter acronymns in this very novel and neglected to expand them in context. Anybody who gave a shit was ignored, so I expect you to have the decency to not give a shit when I use a common acronymn for "close air support" and a military euphemism for "cancel".
3. I wrote that in less than five minutes. Yeah, of course it sucks. I'm sure Stuart wouldn't have any trouble contriving a scenario where a lack of supplies fucks things up for somebody. Anybody.

Not that any of it matters, thanks to useless boors like you. Good story-telling usually implies in-context 'realism', not the other way around. (hint: if you can't write tension in without violating your sensibilities, perhaps you should pick a different setting where you can? 1960s-1970s Earth, say?)

Hell, those soldiers in the Hellpit going all guerrilla with HEA-supplied gear could've had something like;
"What about the C4?"
"We didn't get any, after all. The stuff doesn't grow on trees, you know."

I have a quibble with your next to last statement, this one...

"
Not that any of it matters, thanks to useless boors like you. Good story-telling usually implies in-context 'realism', not the other way around. (hint: if you can't write tension in without violating your sensibilities, perhaps you should pick a different setting where you can? 1960s-1970s Earth, say?)"

The quibble is as follows, what if Stuart's purpose with writing the story the way he did was to intentionally lower the tension in regards to certain segments of the story?

That may sound like a foolish idea but I have seen it done very well by other authors to create extremely awesome situations. In the 1632 series by Eric Flint and others, and the book 1634 the Baltic War there are no less than three scenes of what are more or less civil war iron clad ships firing explosive shells going up against the ships of the current era. You can guess how much "Tension" there is in these scenes given that one sides shots bounce right of the other sides armor, and when the invincible side returns fire it can blow enemy ships to splinters with only a handful of shots.


The 1632 stories to me are not about "are the uptimers going to win this particular battle" because I honestly can't think of a single battle that they've really lost that they were at all prepared for/present in force it's about how are they going to shape the world around them? It's not so much about the tension of a life or death struggle (not past the first book for sure) its about how do these people make their way into a new an unexpected world, and how do they shape it to reflect their own nature?

I view the Salvation War through a similar lens personally so the fact that humanity curb stomps the demons and angels bothers me no more than the fact that the up timers and their allies so frequently do the same to whoever they're going up against....

[Ascaloth]

Guys, do please keep Ryan Thunder talking smack. Remember what Stuart said?

(although, I have noted when people did slash-reviews on The Big One, the result was actually to increase sales significantly.)

Well, we need as many slash reviews as we can get to make TSW a bestseller, and who better than someone like Ryan who would be actually motivated to write one? This is one troll I'd advocate we keep feeding, guys; we need him to come up with a cracker that'll send the sales of the dead-tree version soaring.