Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

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Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Thanas »

...if you value your sanity and/or are a Canadian.


So apparently there is a new US series about the revolutionary war. I watched it. Like the Patriot, it has great production value and somewhat decent actors. And like the Patriot, it butchers history to an absurd degree in its desire to paint the British as evil villains. The British officers are either mercenaries or stuffy idiots who blab of secret military plans to civilians, or hulking brutes who go around threatening women with rape.

But guess who the main villain is. Because you see, the guy who wrote this:
John Graves Simcoe wrote:The principles of the British Constitution do not admit of that slavery which Christianity condemns. The moment I assume the Government of Upper Canada under no modification will I assent to a law that discriminates by dishonest policy between natives of Africa, America or Europe.
was really a brutal creep who goes through women's cothing and their private affairs and who is an inch away from raping the female lead.

Character assassination through and through to cover up hack writing that is incapable of presenting anything in a contest between "freedoms" and "bad king forces". I kid you not, the turning point of the episode is where our "hero" is being persuaded to act as a spy because valiant patriot soldiers died "defending his freedom". Oh, and another US superspy is able to outrun indian trackers (!) after being shot by a sharpshooter in the right shoulder with a rifle ball (!!!).

Or, as Greg Caggiano put it:
Within minutes, I knew this production was going to suffer from something known as “American History Textbook Syndrome”. While this series, and any like it, needs a villain to match with the obvious protagonists, the depiction of British soldiers in AMC’s Turn was in the light of evil, bloodthirsty, and out of control—another reviewer for a major entertainment site used the word “sadistic”. Every time the British are on-screen, we feel scared at what horror they might do, from bayoneting dead soldiers just to make sure, to wrongly and knowingly accusing someone of a crime they did not commit, to having an unquenchable thirst for an already married woman. Skipping right to the character of Major Hewlett, played by Burn Gorman, he apparently is the only soldier in the King’s Army with any sense of decency, and no doubt was only inserted to keep the entire army from being seen as animals.

There were a few observations that could have begun this first episode review of Turn, but my strongest feelings were that of how the British soldiers were represented. I expected them to be seen in a negative light because, after all, this is an American show, but I do believe the series went too far in trying to shove them in the viewer’s face as the unquestioned “bad guys”.
[...]
Alas, Robert Rogers and his Rangers always seem to be involved in something controversial. In Turn, they are bloodthirsty “mercenaries”, a highly inaccurate term.
He also has a great piece on just how awful this character assassination really is: (I will only quote a few sections)
As elaborated on in my review of the premiere episode of Turn this morning, the British army is not exactly portrayed in a positive light. Though there needs to be an antagonist in the series, I believe the production went too far in trying to vilify the British, and one character in particular, Lieutenant John Simcoe. This man was the main villain in the opening episode, seen as bloodthirsty, threatening, and adulterous; someone who will try to get whatever he wants by any means necessary. In reality, there did exist a John Graves Simcoe, however, he was radically different, and almost the antithesis of what was presented on AMC Sunday night. The term used to classify taking a real person in history and then having their portrayal starkly inaccurate is called “character assassination”. We see it all the time in films, when dramatic license is taken to show a character in a certain light to fit the plot, or, quite frankly, to make it easier for the writer. The fact is, the real John Simcoe was a man so distinguished that he would eventually become the Lt. Governor of Upper Canada, someone responsible for the establishment of courts, trial by jury, and most importantly, leading an abolitionist movement that sought to banish slavery from Canada. This is a far cry from the wigged buffoon presented in Turn, who has murderous revenge on his mind when dealing with the main character.

Was John Simcoe a soldier who led men into battle, and in turn, killed other men? Yes, but how is that any different from any other soldier, on both sides, in any war ever fought? That does not mean his character (and I mean personal, real character) should be stripped of all its dignity to be portrayed in the worst way possible just because a “bad guy” is needed. Roland Emmerich did nearly the same thing in The Patriot, taking British Dragoon officer Banastre Tarleton, changing his name to William Tavington (possibly to avoid criticism such as this), and turning him into a mass murderer who orders his men to burn down a church packed with innocent civilians, including women and children. The creators of Turn have done something much worse, though, and that is keeping Simcoe’s name, and turning him into something that did not exist.

[...]As to his political views, here is a complete and total shocker: “Governor Simcoe recognized that most of the province’s first settlers had grown up or lived a good part of their lives in the United States, and would not be happy unless there was some form of democracy. Simcoe was certain that the limited powers of the Town Councils would be enough to appease the republican-minded Americans.”
So according to US TV, a guy who in reality was in favor of democracy and (unlike most US patriots) definitely not a racist got turned into a hulking brute who lechers after brave US PATRIOT WIMMENS. You know, this would have been a good character to build a masterfully grey and nuanced series on. Instead he (and John Andre, who in another great piece of character assassination is apparently a master at laying ambushes for brave american troops) is a stereotypical villain who dares to foil the plans of the BRAVE PATRIOTS.

Well done, US TV. :finger:


And of course, mainstream US reviewers eat it up:
Working with Rose, the production staff strove for historical truthfulness in everything from plot to set details. [...]That said, detail-oriented Revolutionary War enthusiasts will spot plenty of historical faux pas.[...]John Graves Simcoe truly detested the Rebels but some of the significant things that happen with him in the series simply did not occur in real life. Most of the language is a fair representation of 18th century styles, but some modern terms sneak in, such as when Woodhull tells another character, “This is a one-time deal.” Actor Angus MacFadyen’s native Scottish burr adds to his portrayal of Robert Rogers as a scoundrel, but may be incongruous with the facts that Rogers was born in America to Irish colonists and grew up in Connecticut. And the white wigs that the British characters wear were out of style during the Revolution so I found them a little distracting.[...]But none of these details significantly detract from the series. The elements I noted above are certainly important to the Culper Ring story but they are not its core. Human interactions were the essence of Revolutionary War spying and that makes “Turn” a character-focused tale. Executive Producer Barry Josephson explained that the series required some minor liberties to support a better narrative arc, to best show how characters developed over time, or to allow situations to illustrate the experiences and emotions of the characters.
L-FUCKING-OL.

Yes, turning an abolitionist who tried to protect Native Americans into a Nazi is a minor detail. :finger:

Even worse, the show is just boring. Unlike what the cretin above wrote, the stereotypes ruin the suspense. You know the good guys will win because there is no real threat to their righteousness. The acting is wooden, most likely due to the terrible script. It is just not good TV. Contrast it with another show which takes liberties (like Vikings) but which stays faithful to the core history and is good, nuanced TV and this show looks like something out of a WWII propaganda movie.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Thanas »

Even more hilarious mainstream reviews:
Variety wrote:Developed by Craig Silverstein, with a pilot directed by Rupert Wyatt, “Turn” gets the details right
The New York Times, which should know better wrote:“Turn” doesn’t dumb down history for the audience. Instead, it gives life to some of the messier parts of a period that is too often starched and oversimplified by schoolbooks and politicians. “Turn” isn’t easy, but then again, neither was the American Revolution.
Did they even watch the show?

At least Slate and the AVClub got it:
The other decision was perhaps harder to avoid but nonetheless impacts the show. Historical dramas like Mad Men and The Americans gain so much strength from being about the side that is about to lose the series’ central conflict. Because the story of the Culper Ring is so much more compelling than any British counterpart, Silverstein was backed into a corner on this particular point, but he also flails around when trying to develop the British characters as anything other than villainous stock characters from a melodrama. (One redcoat captain may as well tie the heroine to the train tracks while twirling his mustache and sniveling.) If the series is unable to gain the thematic complexity that arises from being about the historical losers, it could at least create British characters who have shades beyond “these are the guys Paul Revere warned us about.”
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Tribble »

Oh, we're used to that kinda thing, it happens all the time. The most surprising fact is that there is a British North American character at all. Usually we're completely ignored, even when the part of the movie/tv episode takes place in Canada such as the arctic scenes in Man of Steel. Not a Canadian to be seen in the Canadian artic, eh? Hell, if you look at most of the maps you see in US newscasts, apparently there is this giant blank space in between Alaska and the rest of the US.

So ya, no shcoker that the one Upper Canadian is depicted as evil. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out in their version that he's also a communist, supports unviersal-health care, stem-cell research, evolution, and is both pro-abortion and gay rights. And of course, those things would be treated as horrible, horrible crimes compared the genuine God-loving Americans. Either that, or in addition to his Evilz he'll end up wearing beaver hats while drinking maple syrup.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by mr friendly guy »

This is a pet peeve of mine, but are these journalists too lazy to even use a few minutes of wikipedia to look it up and following the links? This might be "excusable" because this is just television / film reviews, but I find this laziness translates into more serious articles as well.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Lord Relvenous »

It's amazing just how many people in the US don't realize that British loyalists made up a significant portion of the population, but it does demonstrate just how whitewashed and romanticized it has gotten in popular American culture. The Revolution is treated with nigh-religious worship and fervor.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

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mr friendly guy wrote:This is a pet peeve of mine, but are these journalists too lazy to even use a few minutes of wikipedia to look it up and following the links? This might be "excusable" because this is just television / film reviews, but I find this laziness translates into more serious articles as well.
I have to wonder if that guy who wrote the review even saw the pilot episode in its entirety. "It doesn't dumb it down" would be a ridiculous statement to make even for Fox news. How much more dumbed down than "they fought for your freedoms" and reducing everybody to a walking stereotype can you get? He probably only saw the first ten minutes where the duality of "asshole British mercenary" "stiffy buffoon British officer" was established. Or he must have been drunk and/or high and hallucinated the series into what he wanted it to be.
Tribble wrote:The most surprising fact is that there is a British North American character at all.
Don't get your hopes up, they don't even hint at him being associated with canda. He is just the stereotypical bad redcoat. Meanwhile, somehow all the loyalists (who in OTL were born in the colonies) speak with thick Scottish accents, making sure that nobody would ever believe there were loyalists.

This particular case just offends me because it is not just them using a stereotype but because they took probably the most decent of all British officers and turned him into the opposite of what he was. Heck, the guy in real life executed his own men for stepping out of line but here he has no problem kicking the snot out of defenceless civilians and make totally obvious thinly disguised rape threats to the heroine. "Over a barrel. One of my favorite positions" (actual quote). Now all they need is to make him a self-hating closet homosexual and they got the hack writing trifecta. Heck, the propaganda is so strong in this movie that it probably would not even have flown back during the war.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Metahive »

A series that showed the revolutionary war in all it's complexity and colorful facets would be way more interesting than yet another cookie-cutter "small but determined heroic minority stands up against overwhelming evil empire" retread.

Then again, considering the quasi-religious worship of the Founding Fathers, did you expect anything else?
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

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Well, given that AMC produced a lot of gems that were not always RARARUSAUSA and that it was produced/written by the same guy who just bought the rights to Assange's story, yes.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Metahive »

Well, I'm kind of spoiled, because from animated shorts over comic books to major motion pictures, I've never seen a depiction of this war in entertainment media that didn't reduce it all to patriots=good British=evil. Assassins Creed III is probably the least biased of the lot and that is kind of sad.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Vendetta »

I wonder how much of this is due to the popularity of Game of Thrones.

There are plenty of cartoonishly thuggish and evil villains in Game of Thrones (most of the cast, from what I remember of the books), and that's the In Thing.

So if you want your TV show to be popular you need to fill it with the things the popular shows have, right?
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

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Vendetta wrote:I wonder how much of this is due to the popularity of Game of Thrones.

There are plenty of cartoonishly thuggish and evil villains in Game of Thrones (most of the cast, from what I remember of the books), and that's the In Thing.

So if you want your TV show to be popular you need to fill it with the things the popular shows have, right?
No, because even the most cartoonishly evil villain in Game of Thrones (Ramsey?) has a reason for doing it. If they think they are being edgy by just using shock value, I think The Patriot is a more valid comparison.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Borgholio »

Tribble wrote:Usually we're completely ignored,
Yeah we still hold a grudge against you for successfully resisting our invasions in 1775 and 1812. How dare you defend your sovereign territory.

In seriousness, I did not like The Patriot. As with this show, they portrayed it as a dramatic re-telling of some of the pivotal moments of the revolution, and instead it butchered nearly everything. Only part I actually liked about The Patriot was the final scene at the Battle of Yorktown. That was the most historically accurate aspect of the entire movie, where Cornwallis is squeezed between the American / French land forces and the French navy. It was a nice (if somewhat short) battle scene and not horribly butchered.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Scrib »

There's a reason I try not to watch shows like this. Shows with this sort of nationalist conflict seem like a bad idea to me. I held out against The Americans and it's pretty intriguing premise because I was certain that it would not end well. But I was surprised by how good it was, even if I didn't stick with it.

I suppose you can only get so much.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Meest »

Could not get into it, unlike Copper which seemed to pull you into the time period quickly, this felt like they used the leftover sets and costumes of another show with lesser acting. Again I'll say Copper wasn't completely true historically but they made it work for the most part, it's wasn't crucial to the story, the characters' story superseded having to be accurate. I'd even say Assassin's Creed does a better job at giving nudges to history then having it's own story.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by TheHammer »

Thanas wrote:
Vendetta wrote:I wonder how much of this is due to the popularity of Game of Thrones.

There are plenty of cartoonishly thuggish and evil villains in Game of Thrones (most of the cast, from what I remember of the books), and that's the In Thing.

So if you want your TV show to be popular you need to fill it with the things the popular shows have, right?
No, because even the most cartoonishly evil villain in Game of Thrones (Ramsey?) has a reason for doing it. If they think they are being edgy by just using shock value, I think The Patriot is a more valid comparison.
You could probably lump Joffrey in there as well. But quite frankly, neither one of them are even central characters. Many of the characters, both "good" and "bad" are so many shades of grey that at times its hard to quantify who is who.

That being said, Its into its fourth season now so we've had a chance to see those various shades. One has to wonder if the same could happen in the Turn given enough time.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Block »

Thanas wrote:
Vendetta wrote:I wonder how much of this is due to the popularity of Game of Thrones.

There are plenty of cartoonishly thuggish and evil villains in Game of Thrones (most of the cast, from what I remember of the books), and that's the In Thing.

So if you want your TV show to be popular you need to fill it with the things the popular shows have, right?
No, because even the most cartoonishly evil villain in Game of Thrones (Ramsey?) has a reason for doing it. If they think they are being edgy by just using shock value, I think The Patriot is a more valid comparison.
I guess if you consider being a violent sociopath who gets off on the suffering of others a reason. Game of Thrones is very much shock for the sake of shock.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

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Not really. The books (and parts of the shows not dealing with the reasons) actually give pretty good reasons why people turn out the way they are. There is shock but not senseless shock.
Meest wrote:Could not get into it, unlike Copper which seemed to pull you into the time period quickly, this felt like they used the leftover sets and costumes of another show with lesser acting. Again I'll say Copper wasn't completely true historically but they made it work for the most part, it's wasn't crucial to the story, the characters' story superseded having to be accurate. I'd even say Assassin's Creed does a better job at giving nudges to history then having it's own story.
Copper is pretty good, shame they cancelled it. Same with ripper street which was even better than copper.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Zaune »

So... How do you think they'll address the question of slavery? Quietly gloss over it or just say "fuck it, we need the redneck advertising dollars" and go full apologist?
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

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They ignore it so far - the Patriots have slaves but there are no issues related to slavery raised at all.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Channel72 »

Thanas, what did you think of the HBO series about John Adams? Did you think it was reasonably accurate in its portrayal of the various politicians involved with the revolutionary war?
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

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I think it was a good series overall. My only criticism is that it was bordering on hagiography how they glossed over the negative stuff Adams did (like the sedition laws, which read like things a dictator would enact), how they did not give the enemies of Adams time to outlay their philosophies (especially Jefferson, the British and Franklin were portrayed too negatively at times, I think) and how they exaggerated the achievements of Adams when it came to diplomacy. The series almost make Franklin's french diplomacy a failure when in fact it was very successful, while having Adams appear as great diplomat at the court of King George, when the opposite was true.

It also was overly sanctimonious, for example when the French Admiral who risked his fleet to help the patriots gets a lecture by Mrs Adams how he is a coward and how France should do more, or when Adams pretty much says the same to French politicians (honestly, the irony of such an arrogant upstart lecturing the french nobility....) or when terrorist acts by the patriots (like tarring and feathering) are shown in detail but nobody seems to mind, thereby implying they were the right things to do.

But that said, it was a great series which started out very gray and became more and more hagiographic with each passing episode.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

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Thanas wrote:It also was overly sanctimonious, for example when the French Admiral who risked his fleet to help the patriots gets a lecture by Mrs Adams how he is a coward and how France should do more, or when Adams pretty much says the same to French politicians (honestly, the irony of such an arrogant upstart lecturing the french nobility....) or when terrorist acts by the patriots (like tarring and feathering) are shown in detail but nobody seems to mind, thereby implying they were the right things to do.
I think that scene with Adams lecturing some French politician was depicting him as an impatient, ignorant asshole, since the French guy then promptly reminds him that they have to actually worry about the British navy in the vicinity of France itself, and Benjamin Franklin looks completely mortified by what Adams just said. But it's been a few years - maybe I"m mis-remembering it.

It did a good job showing the British forces with complexity, when they were on-screen. The trial over the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre was good.

EDIT: I'm very disappointed to hear that Turn isn't so great, especially since AMC can do good period pieces, and I was hoping they'd do this right after disappointing me with Hell on Wheels.
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Re: Turn - DO NOT WATCH THAT SHOW

Post by Thanas »

Guardsman Bass wrote:I think that scene with Adams lecturing some French politician was depicting him as an impatient, ignorant asshole, since the French guy then promptly reminds him that they have to actually worry about the British navy in the vicinity of France itself, and Benjamin Franklin looks completely mortified by what Adams just said. But it's been a few years - maybe I"m mis-remembering it.
Sure they do. And then they validate Adams by having the french "finally getting off their behinds" and voila, the cause is won. That is my main problem with the series - a desire to have Adams turn out to be right in the end. And you still got the scenes with Mrs Adams etc lecturing the french, which were much more cringeworthy.
It did a good job showing the British forces with complexity, when they were on-screen. The trial over the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre was good.
Not really, as it too validated the patriots by having the British officer turn out to be a huge asshole who guns for patriots in the end.
EDIT: I'm very disappointed to hear that Turn isn't so great, especially since AMC can do good period pieces, and I was hoping they'd do this right after disappointing me with Hell on Wheels.
Hell on Wheels...man, talk about a premise falling flat. Wasted such an interesting scenario on a main character that makes no sense and would be better off as a secondary character.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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My LPs
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