Building the SD.Net Bunker (RAR)

[MKSheppard]

Additionally, I would not begin the 'move in' process until about nine months before the disaster.

Essentially, we buy all the modularized equipment, and then store it in climate controlled warehouses for five years; so that it doesn't get ruined by the dampness in the mines (even with a first rate dehumidification system it's going to be a problem) and also broken by vandals who want to "urban explore" our hideout.

Look at some of the stuff they wrote on the ARK II WEBSITE

Like many of the rooms in the shelter, the computer room currently consists of only desks and chairs. We hope to move-in at the last minute, computers and many other types of equipment (such as microwaves, tools, supplies and so forth). In the past, many types of equipment that we have stored have deteriorated because of the prolonged exposure to underground humidity.

...

The dental room has been a prime example of the problem of maintaining systems in the shelter. Vandals broke the X-ray (we have a replacement in storage) and humidity has caused considerable rust on the chair. We have left the chair in place because it is so heavy to move and we feel that we will be able to clean it up once we activate the shelter.

[Broomstick]

Prefab is a great idea. In that mine, for instance, if our 'construction unit' is a 15-foot square, you can map out where the hallway units go, the quarters, the rec rooms, etc, and just slide them in one at a time like a giant game of tetris. I would imagine you'd have 'dorms' for 200-250 people laid up in a common pattern, with identical amenities, with dorms further broken down into family suites, single rooms, and multi-person suites. Each dorm would be laid out identically, but treated as an administrative unit.

Meh - 200-250 person dorms really aren't that good. I'm thinking groups of 10-20, which is more an extended-family size. With a group that small it's harder to have a "tragedy of the commons" situation where, say, the bathrooms get trashed because it's easier for the group to hold miscreants accountable. And if someone doesn't get along with their current group they can move to another without having to interact constantly with someone they don't get along with well. Yes, it means things like plumbing are more redundant and less "efficient" in one sense, but with 10 years and little or no chance of resupply you want redundancy.

So you'd have multiple groups of a 10-20 size dorms, some family units, some units with more privacy... if you're going to accommodate all manner of people for 10 years you will need some flexibility or people will go nuts or start acting out due to all the restraints.

[CaptainChewbacca]

You make a good point about accountability in small groups, they can more easily police and regulate themselves than a large block of 250 that can have 'loner' types.

Edit: All this talk reminds me of This Apartment in Hong Kong. Its 32 sq m, so its a bit bigger than we need, but I like the modular/multifunctional way the apartment can be customized.

[Zixinus]

It depends on the terrain on what tools you need, but don't expect 1000 Machette's or Axes, you need a third that number assuming your going to have two 50 man work parties plus replacements since your never going to have the full thousand out there clearing brush.

Anything more than a hundred would be overkill. In fact, considering everything, I would keep the axes and other wood-working tools a low priority.

Another reason: Let's assume that after ten years, we enter a world without humanity. We want to rebuild, yes? Let's further assume that it's safe to do so outside the shelter.
However, it is probable that human structures still stand. It is even possible that we can scavenge heavy-duty construction tools and vehicles.
Kits for scouts (bushcraft stuff) may be useful but again a low priority. Some of us already have stuff for that.

On the subject, I just thought of something: light.

Does anybody have experiences with LED lights? They are more expensive, but they are more efficient (no reason not to try and save energy just because we may have an oversized power source) and lasts longer than even fluorescence-based ones.

That and I would suggest we hand everyone one of these.

[Broomstick]

Yes, some experience with LED lighting. It's a good idea, where it meets needs, due to both low energy cost and low heat production.

With that said - today was my "off" day, so I spent way too much time playing with this idea again. Behold the 24 person "dorm", which not only includes sleeping quarters and personal storage areas, but a bathroom, utility room, general storage, kitchen, living room/entertainment area, and a small workspace. These are intended as "home" living and sleeping quarters - exercise facilities, work areas, and other spaces would be else where. This is the place to come, relax, rest, and eat.



Some close ups of specific areas in next post. These areas - kitchen, bathroom, etc. - could be sliced off this model and made into modules.

[Broomstick]

This is the living room/entertainment area. Monster sized TV screen, along with shelves for other entrainment equipment and whatever items folks might want for this area. The couches and tables could be rearranged for parties or other reasons. Visible at lower left is the "work/office space" area, with three desks/work tables and storage for various types of office supplies




This is the kitchen area. It's large enough to seat everyone in the "home" group, but again tables could be rearranged as needed. I got tired of making everything so I just have "place holders" for the appliances - two refrigerators, ample counter space, sinks, and a stove with 6 burners, two grill tops, and two ovens. Probably need a microwave, a crock pot or two, coffee maker, electric kettle, and a few other things.




This is the utility and storage area, including laundry area, which should include some equipment like iron, sewing machine, and other items to repair clothing along with the folding table that's visible across from the washing/drying machines. Lots of general storage, part of which would function as a pantry for the kitchen area. Oh, and one of the toilets.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Very nicely done. And this shows the advantage of the whole "modular" concept. Once you have one of these, we can build as many as needed wherever we wish within the mining complex. There are certain things you would want separate for such a "Core" facility as what you already have designed. Things like a Library, computer area, exercise gym, those are best as stand alone components that could be placed as needed throughout the Vault.

One component that I am not sure has been addressed yet.... it was mentioned earlier that over time people would go stir crazy being kept inside for so long. Something that may help alleviate this may be an indoor "garden" pod. Something like a large doomed area that would be like in indoor "outdoor" park. You could make a large area big enough for bushes, a few trees.. You could pain the ceiling blue and have a light source that mimics the rhythms of the day. I know something like that may seem a luxory, but it would indeed provide a good breath of fresh air to so many of us that would be kept in the Vault.

By the by.. Considering how quick you are doing these the level of detail is REALLY amazing. Kudos to ya mate

EDIT: One addendum, in the kitchen area, you want some sort of partition between the kitchen/cooking area and the actual eating area.
Just because I am sure you can understand you don't wan't people eating and getting in the way of folks cooking.

[Broomstick]

And here is the bathing/toilet area. Again, not all details are filled in. I tried to arrange it so that people can still access the toilets and sinks while someone is bathing/showering - this will, after all, serve up to 24 people! So there should be doors in the doorways (but adding them blocked a lot of the view so they've been removed for this viewing). Two showers, and a bathtub because some of us like baths, and they can also be stress relief as well as soothing to the ill, the arthritic, and because I like baths. The shower and bath areas have space for storing toiletries, towels, soap, shampoo, and for laying out your clothes/robe/whatever. Showers are also big enough to two people to use, and doors will provide some privacy, as noted.

Three toilets, each with a sink for washing hands. Separate doors for privacy, and one opens onto the utility room. This should enable people to utilize all the facilities at the same time with appropriate levels of privacy.

Four additional sinks, for whatever they are needed for. OK, maybe it's a little excessive, but there is room and some people spend significant time primping in front of the mirror as their daily care routine.

In addition to under sink storage and areas in the tub/shower rooms there is a closer at lower right that can serve as a linen closet/storage area for the bathing/toilet area.




And finally the sleeping area. The floors are carpeted to minimize noise from other areas reaching the sleeping areas. Likewise, the storage areas are closer to the hallway so someone can access their possessions with minimal chance of disturbing others. We might even want to install a door between the beds and the "closet" area for additional noise reduction. It's a pretty dense arrangement, but the idea is that this would be for sleeping/resting for the most part, although there's no reason someone couldn't read or whatever. Linens for each bed would be stored in the built-in drawers. There's not a whole lot of room for a lot of possessions in the allotted space - well, I'm sorry, you can't bring all your stuff along for the apocalypse I suppose some additional storage could be allotted somewhere in the complex if that seems reasonable.



If you refer back to the drawing of the whole "24 person dorm" you'll note there are two entrances to the area - one to the living room, one to the bedroom area. While the living area one is a pretty simple idea, the idea behind the bedroom area one is to allow people to come and go without having to march through the whole rest of the "dorm". That, and having multiple exits is often a good idea in case of an emergency. Having a kick-ass fire suppression system will be a must.

That, and note most of the walls are 6 inches thick (15 cm). That not only provides structural support, and lots of room to run plumbing and wiring through, but would also allow more insulation and soundproofing than typical. You do NOT want to spend 10 years going crazy because of the noise in the room(s) next to your bedroom.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Are the bedrooms as you've drawn them 2-person or 4-person? I can't really tell. Also, having lived with women (and shared bathrooms with them) I can say that the 4 sinks in the bathroom isn't a bad idea. If I may make a suggestion, having a small sink/mirror in each bedroom suite would probably be a good idea, in case someone gets thirsty in the night they don't have to walk all the way to the bathrooms, and it would allow for more morning grooming to take place in the bedroom, freeing up space in the bathrooms.

On an unrelated subject, if people are going to be living here for ten years, what are they going to DO? I'm sure there will be doctors, dentists, and teachers for the children, but there's a lot of jobs which simply aren't needed in this shelter. Are people going to be assigned a few days of cleaning/maintenance work each week, and have the rest for free time? Will we need folks to take shifts in hydroponics or machinery repair? What are we going to fill all that time with?

[Broomstick]

Very nicely done...

...By the by.. Considering how quick you are doing these the level of detail is REALLY amazing. Kudos to ya mate

Thank you. This is actually serving a dual purpose, as I needed to learn the software as part of starting up a business with the Other Half. I'm having fun and educating myself at the same time. Now if only I could make some money, too...

And a lot of the drawings are modular! I built one "bedroom" and mirror image "closet" units, then duplicated them to get the full sleeping area. Some of the rest of it is like that, too. So yes, modular is the way to go.

There are certain things you would want separate for such a "Core" facility as what you already have designed. Things like a Library, computer area, exercise gym, those are best as stand alone components that could be placed as needed throughout the Vault.

I think a library/research/work area would be combined with computers, and another " "electronic gaming/entertainment" area that also has computers. Computers are so freaking ubiquitous these days I can't imagine NOT having lots of little ones all over, along with perhaps a few very large ones. Redundancy, portability, and a good network are all musts.

We'll also need some workshops - carpentry, metal working, likely some other ones including some where people can grab a space for a particular project as needed.

We'll also need some sort of medical facilities, some secure storage areas for things like weapons and ammunition, tool lockers, and probably an a detention center because sooner or later Something Will Happen requiring an adult form of "time out".

One component that I am not sure has been addressed yet.... it was mentioned earlier that over time people would go stir crazy being kept inside for so long. Something that may help alleviate this may be an indoor "garden" pod. Something like a large doomed area that would be like in indoor "outdoor" park. You could make a large area big enough for bushes, a few trees.. You could pain the ceiling blue and have a light source that mimics the rhythms of the day. I know something like that may seem a luxory, but it would indeed provide a good breath of fresh air to so many of us that would be kept in the Vault.

Not really a luxury. Several Antarctic bases combine their hydroponics set ups with "daylight" rooms. People need daylight, and many seem to need some green growing things. So why not do something similar?

We could have a "main" hydroponics/aquaponics area surrounding an exercise area, combining daylight, growing things, and exercise room with people putting out nice CO2 for the plant life. We could also include subsidiary hydroponics setups in the library areas. We want some separation, as plant disease is a possibility in a confined area and we don't' want to lose all of our crops if we can avoid it.

An area that is a small "garden" with traditional dirt and some small trees/shrubs might be a possibility, but it would be quite limited. Still, for mental health it may well be worth it.

EDIT: One addendum, in the kitchen area, you want some sort of partition between the kitchen/cooking area and the actual eating area.
Just because I am sure you can understand you don't wan't people eating and getting in the way of folks cooking.

I'd vote for a removable partition - at times there are only a few people there it wouldn't be an issue. And if you are having everyone to a sit-down meal the cooking would probably be done before the serving starts. I think there needs to be an ability to re-configure spaces for different uses and numbers of people to prevent feelings of being constrained and controlled too much. This would be especially important in larger groups - I could see one of these "dorms" being occupied by party animals and another by quiet types.

We might want a communal kitchen/dining area were people who don't want to be bothered with cooking their own food can go, or as a focus of social events.

Part of my thinking is that we want to encourage people to move around and socialize, force them to get up and walk around and go different places, but we also need to provide space to retreat as well. In addition, such "dorms" could lock the door and be self-sufficient for a short while in the event of, say, an outbreak of illness. It doesn't have to be plague - any cold or flu or sniffle would spread easily in such dense living arrangements, and the only way to mitigate it would be to have people limit contact with others.

I wouldn't recommend filling them all to capacity, though - as noted, if we're there 10 years it's inevitable, given the youth of most SD.net members, we'll be creating a few additions to the population along the way. Did we determine whether or not we might get members of the general public wandering by we might want to add to our little ark? In any case, for this 24 person dorm I'd recommend only putting 18-20 people in it. That makes it possible to rearrange roommates, add or subtract people to the dorm group, and so on.

[Mr Bean]

Speaking from someone has experienced all the joys of barracks life and time deployed in primitive conditions I can tell you now that a private bathroom is a huge bonuses you don't appreciate until you have to share it with four other people. Even under military discipline there are some horror stories I've heard and two I can share in person. Of course that kind of luxury can double the cost of each living unit by itself since bathrooms are expensive and bedrooms are cheap.

OAN, what software are you using Broomstick?

[Broomstick]

Are the bedrooms as you've drawn them 2-person or 4-person? I can't really tell.

Four person bedroom - here's a cutaway of the bed/closet areas showing two bunks and four closet areas.

Also, having lived with women (and shared bathrooms with them) I can say that the 4 sinks in the bathroom isn't a bad idea. If I may make a suggestion, having a small sink/mirror in each bedroom suite would probably be a good idea, in case someone gets thirsty in the night they don't have to walk all the way to the bathrooms, and it would allow for more morning grooming to take place in the bedroom, freeing up space in the bathrooms.

I had that in the 1-person room. The problem with putting it in the bed/closet area is space and the amount of plumbing, but I might reconfigure for it. There might be room for dressing tables/mirrors in bathroom areas. I deliberately did not install mirrors in the toilet areas to prevent loitering. A mirror could be installed in the bed areas quite easily on the wall between the bunks, or on the doors to the closet space.

I was thinking of this as space for young adults (think high school/college age - we have quite a few of those on SD.net) and there's no reason such a person couldn't get up and walk to the bathroom or kitchen for a drink of water or midnight snack. Or keep a bottle of water next to their bed if they are frequently afflicted with midnight thirst.

On an unrelated subject, if people are going to be living here for ten years, what are they going to DO? I'm sure there will be doctors, dentists, and teachers for the children, but there's a lot of jobs which simply aren't needed in this shelter. Are people going to be assigned a few days of cleaning/maintenance work each week, and have the rest for free time? Will we need folks to take shifts in hydroponics or machinery repair? What are we going to fill all that time with?

Definitely we'll need shifts for maintenance and minor repair work. I already suggested cross-training people in various skills. But yes, keeping people occupied will be an issue. Hence, provisions for entertainment and exercise. We should also rotate assignments in various areas - so many weeks in hydroponics, so many in general cleaning, so many in cooking, so many in something else...

People need to be occupied, and kept out of ruts.

[Crossroads Inc.]

One other thing Broom, the bathrooms... they need to be a LOT more efficient. Speaking as someone with, eh, "routine intestinal issues" having a free bathroom available at all times is a must. You have a Core Block for 24 people, and a Bathing area with THREE open toilets. THAT is a recipe for disaster. Mr. Bean touched on some of this already in his Post, and adding "urinals" is easy enough, but there needs to be more "full" toilets for those that need time 'on the pot'

[Broomstick]

Speaking from someone has experienced all the joys of barracks life and time deployed in primitive conditions I can tell you now that a private bathroom is a huge bonuses you don't appreciate until you have to share it with four other people.

Ah, I recall days in my childhood when all six of us shared one bathroom. And it was us four kids in one bedroom. And let me tell you about camp with 2 outhouses between 24 girls.... Then there were the college dorms, including that two weeks I got stuck without housing and I crashed in a friend's room - three of us in a space three meters by four for two weeks. And the bathroom down the hall and no sink in that room....

Even under military discipline there are some horror stories I've heard and two I can share in person. Of course that kind of luxury can double the cost of each living unit by itself since bathrooms are expensive and bedrooms are cheap.

Clearly, there must be an emphasis on community and sharing for this to work. This would be the largest living unit I'd suggest because of those very issues, and one of the reasons I don't suggest filling it up to maximum capacity.

But yeah, we just can't give everyone their own private bathroom. Sorry, not realistic for the proposed idea.

This raises the prospects of sanctions for those who can't learn to share space, and/or the prospect of earning larger quarters.

If we had 10 shelters with 100 people in each then we might have just one such dorm in a bunker. If we had 5 shelters with 200 people in each, or 4 with 250 people in each (4 might be my preference) we might have 2-5 such large dorm areas, with the rest of the living space a little less dense.

OAN, what software are you using Broomstick?

These were done in Google Sketch Up

(I need to learn Rhino, too, and am also deciphering CNC G-Code. It's been a busy week

[Eulogy]

We have half a decade (give or take) before the disaster hits. Has anyone considered going to university or college and learning some proper trades and sciences while the world is relatively whole? It should be trivial for quite a few people to learn a couple trades and/or get a degree, then teach other people. The cost of the education should be quite low compared to the prep money we're getting, and this way we are more or less insured that the Vault populace are more than menial grunts and are better able to handle any issues that pop up. Hell, we could enroll other people that we are bringing with us - might as well have your wife help with the reactors.

As an added bonus, doing this means that a) we are in an even better position to dig our way out of the metaphorical legal hole if Shep's fears come true and the Disaster turns out to be a worldwide broadcast of somebody mooing everyone, since we and any non-SD.Net members will now possess (more) marketable and profitable skills, and b) if we survive the Doom Decade and hit the undo button, we'll still be better off than before, since I'm making the reasonable assumption that we'll be remembering everything that happened (otherwise, what would be the point of the statuette? ). Of course, I can't expect that the money and assets from the Doomed Timeline will be retained once the reset button is pressed.

Another idea I had is to create a company that would do the required preparation. The Brighter Tomorrow Corporation would handle the property purchases, construction, stocking, etc. When the shit hits the fan we can at our discretion bring in our employees, who can be almost whoever we want - it's a way to bring in more women, at least.

And if the Disaster isn't one, we avoid trouble by becomnig landlords! Set up some light rail and our tenants can enjoy the fruits of the cities while stuffing rent money in our pockets, giving us a way to pay off the 100M loan and not getting reamed by the IRS and later, prison. We can house a lot of students in a converted mine. We can also have The Company sell excess power from our reactors and food from our farms to make extra cash.

I'd suggest putting a lot of history books and manuals in the library. If the Earth isn't a radioactive deathpit we could make like the Romans and build cities that don't require high technology. As for electronic entertainment... well, you're gonna be spending a lot of time torrenting.

[Broomstick]

One other thing Broom, the bathrooms... they need to be a LOT more efficient. Speaking as someone with, eh, "routine intestinal issues" having a free bathroom available at all times is a must. You have a Core Block for 24 people, and a Bathing area with THREE open toilets. THAT is a recipe for disaster. Mr. Bean touched on some of this already in his Post, and adding "urinals" is easy enough, but there needs to be more "full" toilets for those that need time 'on the pot'

Ah, dam - forgot the urinals! Except that would be pretty much a "male only" appliance and I'm trying to make things that are usable without regard to gender.

As I said - this would be for young, healthy people who, presumably, are least likely to have such issues. Yes, it would be a disaster if there was an outbreak of, say, food poisoning but that's what the medical area is for (among other things). Folks with "routine intestinal issues" could/should be assigned quarters with fewer than an 8:1 person:toilet ratio. (So should anyone who gets pregnant - and over 10 years and 1,000 people, most of them young, it's going to happen a couple times no matter how careful people are). We also have some disabled members who may need different facilities (I tried designing wide enough halls and doorways to accommodate a wheelchair if necessary) And, again, 24 is the maximum capacity - if you only assign 18 then it's a 6:1 person:toilet ratio, you can take one of the tables out of the kitchen area, and in general it's less crowded. Believe it or not 4:1 and 6:1 person:toilet ratios used to be pretty routine.

Given that we would need some personnel on duty round the clock, and with staggered work hours, I was assuming not everyone would be going to work/getting up/going to sleep at the same time. You'd want everyone in a four person bedroom to be on the same shift to minimize disturbances, but different bedrooms could be on different schedules.

Let's assume, for a moment, three eight hour shifts. Maybe two bedrooms would be first shift, two second shift, and two third shift. This would stagger bathroom and kitchen demands through the day, which is actually a more efficient use of the facilities. So even at maximum you'd have groups of 8 people tending to use the facilities at similar times. Eight people splitting 3 toilets, 2 showers, a bathtub, and 4 additional sinks shouldn't be a problem, even if one person has to "park" on the toilet for awhile.

If you have four six hour shifts then you'd further reduce the size of "crowds".

I'll have another go at a less dense "dorm" in a bit.

[spaceviking]

If this disaster does in fact kill everyone outside of the shelter, it might be prudent to have a sperm bank of sorts. While we can only save 1000 people, it would save us from becoming inbred morons. Especially if some sort of further disaster befalls our group and we have even less of a viable breeding population.

[CaptainChewbacca]

On the subject of restrooms, I don't see why the 4-person bedroom in Broomie's design couldn't have a room three feet wide behind the beds with a toilet and a sink, identical to the toilet/sink rooms you put in the bathroom. Spreads it out and prevents folks monopolizing the bathroom.

[Zaune]

The corridors between the bedrooms could stand to be a bit wider, because at the moment it looks as if two people couldn't walk abreast through them, and the dining area probably needs a little more elbow room. Otherwise that looks pretty good, though not something I'd personally choose to live in.

[Zixinus]

AWESOME WORK Broomy. Respect +

Regarding the baths:

Why not make a public bath/swimming pool (or make a swimming pool with a "swallow area" section for R@R and a deeper area for actualy swimming)?

Because I foresee a lot of people wanting to hog the bathtub and that being a source of a lot of potential arguments. Making a large, public bath may prevent this.

[Broomstick]

On the subject of restrooms, I don't see why the 4-person bedroom in Broomie's design couldn't have a room three feet wide behind the beds with a toilet and a sink, identical to the toilet/sink rooms you put in the bathroom. Spreads it out and prevents folks monopolizing the bathroom.

Plumbing.

I've learned WAY more about toilets and plumbing this year than I ever cared to know. The shit that goes down the toilet goes down/through a four inch wide pipe (well, in the US it's inches, elsewhere I'm sure it's in centimeters). As we all know, shit rolls downhill, or at least it's supposed to. That means every horizontal run of such pipe has to slant downward. It doesn't have to slant downward a lot, but slant it must. The longer the run, the more vertical room you'll need for that component. Also, the longer the horizontal run the more potential for clogs (having helped to snake out 40+ plus feet of "soil pipe" this February, let me tell you, this is not fun)

If you distribute such pipes throughout the living area not only will it take a lot more material, but you'll complicate your plumbing. As Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott says: the more complicated the plumbing the easier it is to clog the pipes (alright, that's a paraphrase, but it's true).

By clustering the toilets closer together you can have them all dump into one larger "soil pipe" using shorter horizontal runs. Because those runs are shorter they can slant at a sharper angle for the same vertical space (this becomes a greater consideration if you have multiple levels in the SD.net Bunker). This will save money, material, and reduce (though not eliminate) the chance of clogs.

Even in conventional buildings a lot of designs "cluster" the toilets and plumbing into one or two "wet walls" to minimize the piping that has to be run.

Another thing to consider is what kind of toilets should we have. Are we going to have the water resources and sewage capability to handle flush toilets? Would we be better off with some sort of composting system, which would have the benefit of allowing us to recycle our own waste? If we do go with composting toilets then we really can't have long horizontal runs

Remember - this has to sustain us for ten years with no outside assistance or rescue.

[Broomstick]

Regarding the baths:

Why not make a public bath/swimming pool (or make a swimming pool with a "swallow area" section for R@R and a deeper area for actualy swimming)?

It figures that SD.net would request a Roman Bath for a survival bunker!

It won't be in the living areas, it will be in the public areas, probably next to the gym/exercise area.

[Eternal_Freedom]

This is looking reallly good Broomstick.

I would second the call for a swimming pool of some kind. Not only is it very social indeed, but it is great for excersise and relaxation.

Personally, I could see myself living somehere like this. It couldn't exactly be paradise, but it beats a radiation-blasted wasteland or whatever.

[Hawkwings]

Comments:

You are missing one very important thing in those rooms Broomstick. Desks. It's a workspace, a place to read, a place to operate your computer, and a place to personalize. Everyone should have a desk! It's just not your space until you have a desk.

Another thing: clothes. Honestly in this sort of situation I don't really see us keeping our entire wardrobes, and the laundry room you have in there does not seem necessary. What would be more efficient is a laundry service where you drop off your dirty clothes in a bag with your name on it, and it's returned the next day cleaned and folded.

My thoughts about the kitchen: if you're housing a bunch of mostly male teenagers - young adults, don't expect them to cook. The kitchen will be mostly for snacks, microwaveable meals, and the occasional culinary adventure. Instead, expect 90% of the meals to be eaten in the dining halls.

One TV is not enough for 24 people. While watching whatever you want in your own room at your desk (hint hint) is an option, sometimes you want to watch a movie with friends and someone has already hogged the TV.

Here's what I'd suggest for the dorm area to fix some of these problems. Two rooms, assigned to four people. One room is just for sleeping, and thus has four beds, closets, mirrors, dressers, etc. The other, connected room has a desk for each person, some chairs, and a TV. If at all possible (which it is) we should give each room its own sink, as things like brushing teeth, getting some water, washing hands (you do want to make it really convenient for people to wash their hands in these confined and sickly quarters) and such can be distributed instead of taking up bathroom space. Remember that this is not the same as a college dorm or a military barracks. This is the place that you are going to be (almost) every night for ten years. That is a long time, and I know that I could not have lived in my freshman dorm room for ten whole years. Comfort and keeping everyone sane is going to be a bigger priority in our shelter than it is in dorms, since you don't go home for the summer, or go on vacation, or even see any new surroundings.

As for things for people to do... there will be plenty to do! Plenty of menial jobs that is. We need people to clean, people to wash clothes, people to wash dishes, people to cook huge batches of meals in the dining halls, people to fix broken lights and broken TVs and broken furniture and broken sinks, people to stock the convenience store pod with soap and shampoo and toothpaste and kleenex and sticky notes and pens, people to take out the trash and sort the trash and recycle things and wash out bottles for reuse, people to move things from point A to point B, and so on and so forth.

The vast majority of people will be doing these menial jobs, with some more people as management and organization and administration for these workers. There will be a very small minority, 5% maybe, of people who are actually going to be engaging in thinking work. And even then, it'll be stuff like managing the hydroponics garden and ensuring that it provides a steady output of food. And even then that guy is going to spend half his shift every day washing dishes. We might have two doctors and two dentists, each with two assistants. We might have five police officers, with another 20 part-time. But we're going to have a full-time maintenance staff of like 200.

[FaxModem1]

What about cleaning robots?

http://store.irobot.com/category/index. ... cp=2804605

Give ourselves a real Vault-Tec feel if we want it.

I also think there should be a communal kitchen and dining room/ballroom that could operate the entire bunker, for Shelter wide parties and the like. After, we need to make a sense of community in the place.