Russian or German?

Quetzalcoatl · Post by **Quetzalcoatl** » 2008-09-09 03:14pm

Hello everybody! I'm new here, although I've been watching the proceedings for a couple of years.

I created an account partly because I feel comfortable enough now to discuss serious issues, but also to ask a pretty important question. As a freshman in college I know have the option to learn one of two foreign languages in addition to my favorite subjectgs of political science and history.

The choices are Russian or German. I think I could enjoy either but I can't really make up my mind and only have room in my schedule for one. If I am fortunate enough to get a semester abroad, it will dictate where I go to study.

Any ideas/input?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2008-09-09 03:25pm

I think it's largely going to come down to personal preference. German is not a very hard language to learn how to read and understand (writing is a different kettle of fish altogether), and Germany is a very fun and interesting country to visit; at the very least, it's much more tourist-friendly than Russia. On the other hand, Russia has a fascinating culture and history, and the language itself - from what little I know of it - is an intriguing thing to study.

Post by **Coyote** » 2008-09-09 04:07pm

German will also be available to you in Austria and Switzerland. However, Russia opens doors for you in many other places, such as Ukraine, the Caucases, regions of Central Asia, the Baltics, etc. But then there's no guarantee you want to visit some of those places-- as mentioned, they're not exactly tourist-friendly.

Do you want to eat sausage and drink beer? Or slurp borscht and drink vodka?

One thing to bear in mind is that --according to the ads I see at the bottom of the page-- there are a lot of lonely Russian women waiting to meet you!

salm · Post by **salm** » 2008-09-10 08:10am

There are more and larger countries where Russian is usefull. These countries are most likely also more interesting than Germany, Austria and Switzerland. On the other hand German is probably easier to learn. However, I´d go with Russian.

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2008-09-10 08:32am

Beyond English, German is the most-spoken language in Europe, and is thus useful for business. Further, it is closer to English (the divergence is a mere thousand years, compared to the multiple thousands of Russian), and thus easier to learn. German is written in the same alphabet as english, and beyond ü, ö, uvular r, and ch (half the time) contains no new sounds, while russian's phonology is tortured by its use of palatalisation (the soft sign that looks similar to b causes sounds to go awry.

German also is morphologically closer to english, having less of a case system (although it still retains one, unlike English which lost it long ago) than Russian.

All in all, German is the easier choice. I'd argue it's the most interesting and the most useful too.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2008-09-10 08:37am

Depends on where you want to work after school. If you want to work for the US government, then go with Russian. Russian, for a lot of the law enforcement/intelligence/foreign service type agencies, is considered a mission critical language and you will get a feeler from them if you are fluent almost without any regard to how much experience you have.

nickolay1 · Post by **nickolay1** » 2008-09-10 02:06pm

MRDOD wrote:Beyond English, German is the most-spoken language in Europe, and is thus useful for business.

This is incorrect. Russian has more speakers in Europe.

while russian's phonology is tortured by its use of palatalisation (the soft sign that looks similar to b causes sounds to go awry.

Palatalization really isn't difficult.

I'd argue it's the most interesting and the most useful too.

Russian has far more speakers worldwide compared to German. The volume of available literature, particularly scientific, is also significantly larger. Therefore, it's more useful than German.

Alferd Packer · Post by **Alferd Packer** » 2008-09-10 04:16pm

Whichever you pick, just marry someone who speaks the other language. That's what I did; I speak German and my wife speaks Russian.

Which language is better? Hard to say. Russian is probably more objectively useful. Recall, though, that in addition to studying the language, you're probably going to spend quite a bit of time studying the literature. When you get to the 300-level courses, that's pretty much all it is. So, in order to have a fun experience with the language, you really should consider which nation's literature you want to spend your evenings reading. Or, if you're not into literature, which program spares you of this torment the most.

Post by **Coyote** » 2008-09-10 07:01pm

Note, also: Germany, Switzerland, Austria = Chocolate.

MMmmm, chocolate.

Post by **Simplicius** » 2008-09-10 10:31pm

Bounty wrote:I think it's largely going to come down to personal preference. German is not a very hard language to learn how to read and understand (writing is a different kettle of fish altogether), and Germany is a very fun and interesting country to visit; at the very least, it's much more tourist-friendly than Russia.

You think so? I'm pretty slow with languages, but I never had a terribly difficult time writing in German for my assignments. Most of my effort went into digging up all the extra vocabulary that I needed in order to say what I wanted to say.

I wonder just what Russian textbooks look like these days. I've flipped through my mother's old university Russian book, and it's chock full of workers, concrete, factories, and pencil-stealing hooligani.

...A hell of a lot more content than my German textbook as well. Several semesters' worth of material, easily.

The Guid · Post by **The Guid** » 2008-09-10 10:31pm

If I might offer an art point of view, if you learn Russian you wil be able to read Dosteyevsky and Checkhov in the original Russian, which I imagine would be quite the treat.

Anyone got good German language art counterpoint?

Post by **Simplicius** » 2008-09-10 11:53pm

Well, Grimmelhausen's Der abenteuerliche Simplicissimus Teutsch is one of my favorite novels even though I've only read a translation thereof. I'm not sure if it's a 'beloved classic'-type novel or just one I happen to enjoy, but I would find it interesting to read in the German.

There's the literary product of the Weimar period too - an enthusiast would probably be interested in the untranslated works, whether from an artistic or cultural-historical perspective.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-09-11 12:24am

I would base my choice on practical considerations; anyone in Germany I can already talk to as they speak English or I can muddle through given a smattering and the language similarity. I'm totally at a loss with Russian, however, so if I was to learn a language formally it'd probably be Russian.

Also, Russian sci-fi = awesome.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2008-09-11 12:31am

Simplicius wrote:Well, Grimmelhausen's Der abenteuerliche Simplicissimus Teutsch is one of my favorite novels even though I've only read a translation thereof. I'm not sure if it's a 'beloved classic'-type novel or just one I happen to enjoy, but I would find it interesting to read in the German.

It is written in old german. Quite unlike the german of today.

The Guid wrote:If I might offer an art point of view, if you learn Russian you wil be able to read Dosteyevsky and Checkhov in the original Russian, which I imagine would be quite the treat.

Anyone got good German language art counterpoint?

Goethe, Schiller, Kafka, Eichendorff, Tucholsky, Brecht, Fortunatus...plus, Beethoven. There is a reason the germans call themselves the "Land der Dichter und Denker".

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2008-09-11 03:23am

Simplicius wrote:
Bounty wrote:I think it's largely going to come down to personal preference. German is not a very hard language to learn how to read and understand (writing is a different kettle of fish altogether), and Germany is a very fun and interesting country to visit; at the very least, it's much more tourist-friendly than Russia.
You think so? I'm pretty slow with languages, but I never had a terribly difficult time writing in German for my assignments. Most of my effort went into digging up all the extra vocabulary that I needed in order to say what I wanted to say.

It's not so much that writing is difficult, it's that it's more difficult than what you'd expect from listening to the language. Maybe it's because I'm coming from Dutch, but before my German classes started I could follow a German discussion reasonably well, and that gave me the impression that writing it would be a push-over; it wasn't. It's not all that difficult, per sé, but it's comparatively more difficult that what I thought it would be.

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2008-09-11 03:32am

nickolay1 wrote:
MRDOD wrote:Beyond English, German is the most-spoken language in Europe, and is thus useful for business.
This is incorrect. Russian has more speakers in Europe.

True. Europe as in Western Europe or the European Union was what I was meaning, not Europe the continent.

while russian's phonology is tortured by its use of palatalisation (the soft sign that looks similar to b causes sounds to go awry.
Palatalization really isn't difficult.

Perhaps not for you, but I find palatalisation one of the hardest things to do properly in a language. Then again I've never really tried hard to get it right.

I'd argue it's the most interesting and the most useful too.
Russian has far more speakers worldwide compared to German. The volume of available literature, particularly scientific, is also significantly larger. Therefore, it's more useful than German.

Perhaps true, mine was a matter of opinion that I find it more interesting grammatically than Russian, especially from a historical perspective- all the cool sound laws are German (Grimm's, Vernor's, the OHG Affrication, etc.) so I rather like german more.

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2008-09-11 03:35am

Bounty wrote:
It's not so much that writing is difficult, it's that it's more difficult than what you'd expect from listening to the language. Maybe it's because I'm coming from Dutch, but before my German classes started I could follow a German discussion reasonably well, and that gave me the impression that writing it would be a push-over; it wasn't. It's not all that difficult, per sé, but it's comparatively more difficult that what I thought it would be.

That surprises me, given that Dutch spelling (particularly for vowels, where Dutch beats even French and English for the 'most ways and most odd ways to spell a single sound') is far more bizarre and ossified than German. Perhaps it is because of that- you attempted to spell German as if it were Dutch? I can see how that'd be a difficulty.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2008-09-11 05:34am

Perhaps it is because of that- you attempted to spell German as if it were Dutch? I can see how that'd be a difficulty.

No, it's not that. I'm not sure how to explain this - take, for example, this sentence, randomly copied from Wikipedia:

Dieser vergleichsweise kleine Vertreter der Unterfamilie Aquilinae hat ein relativ kleines Verbreitungsgebiet im Westen der Paläarktis; die westliche Arealgrenze verläuft durch den Osten Deutschlands.

When I read this, I know exactly what it says: "This comparatively small representative of the sub-familie Aquilinae has a relatively small habitat area (litt. "area in which it has spread") in the western Palearctic; the western border of this area runs through eastern Germany." I know this because I can subconsciously piece together the vocabulary and grammar from what I know of other languages, mainly Dutch, so even if there are gaps in my knowledge I still know what the text says. This then gives me the impression that I kick ass at translating German, and in a way I do, but not quite.

However, if you ask me to translate the English text back into German, I'd need a dictionary and preferably a grammar cheat sheet. I wouldn't know to use verläufen instead of plain läufen, or what the technical term is for the habitat of an eagle. Reading the text is basically automatic, writing it takes some conscious effort. Does that make sense or am I talking gibberish

[R_H] · Post by **[R_H]** » 2008-09-11 05:51am

Bounty wrote: No, it's not that. I'm not sure how to explain this - take, for example, this sentence, randomly copied from Wikipedia:

Dieser vergleichsweise kleine Vertreter der Unterfamilie Aquilinae hat ein relativ kleines Verbreitungsgebiet im Westen der Paläarktis; die westliche Arealgrenze verläuft durch den Osten Deutschlands.

When I read this, I know exactly what it says: "This comparatively small representative of the sub-familie Aquilinae has a relatively small habitat area (litt. "area in which it has spread") in the western Palearctic; the western border of this area runs through eastern Germany." I know this because I can subconsciously piece together the vocabulary and grammar from what I know of other languages, mainly Dutch, so even if there are gaps in my knowledge I still know what the text says. This then gives me the impression that I kick ass at translating German, and in a way I do, but not quite.

However, if you ask me to translate the English text back into German, I'd need a dictionary and preferably a grammar cheat sheet. I wouldn't know to use verläufen instead of plain läufen, or what the technical term is for the habitat of an eagle. Reading the text is basically automatic, writing it takes some conscious effort. Does that make sense or am I talking gibberish

No, I know what you mean. It's pretty much the same for me. I'm much better at reading than at writting (the exception being works by Schiller, Goethe etc.).

salm · Post by **salm** » 2008-09-11 07:20am

That´s because there´s a difference between your active vocabulary and your passive vocabulary.

Quetzalcoatl · Post by **Quetzalcoatl** » 2008-09-11 10:32am

Thanks for all the input.

I thought about this issue for a while, and sat in on a few classes.

I've decided to throw you all and take Mandarin instead. "Language of the future" and all that.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2008-09-11 10:39am

salm wrote:That´s because there´s a difference between your active vocabulary and your passive vocabulary.

Does that even apply here?

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2008-09-11 11:51am

Quetzalcoatl wrote:Thanks for all the input.

I thought about this issue for a while, and sat in on a few classes.

I've decided to throw you all and take Mandarin instead. "Language of the future" and all that.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

Good luck with that. From what I've heard, Mandarin takes the meaning of difficult to a whole new level, and that's just the spoken language.

Swindle1984 · Post by **Swindle1984** » 2008-09-12 06:05pm

German is basically english. Spoken by a monster. Underwater. Through a walkie-talkie.

Russian is a language devised and spoken by masochists who have little to do besides drink vodka, fuck, and invade other countries.

Go with German.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2008-09-12 07:08pm

nickolay1 wrote:Russian has far more speakers worldwide compared to German.

This has nothing whatever to do with the language's utility, which is highly dependent on his situation and plans. French has a negligible number of speakers compared to Hindustani, but someone living in Canada would probably still find it more useful. Given the relative paucity of Russians abroad, the marginal desirability of visiting Russian-speaking areas for pleasure, and the unlikelihood of needing to use Russian in a business context, it's more likely for German to make itself useful.

The volume of available literature, particularly scientific, is also significantly larger.

I find myself doubting this and would like to see some kind of evidence for the assertion, given the high level of activity in German academia and research... but in any case it's my understanding that German technical jargon is effectively a second language anyway.

If he was studying it with the mere intent of completing a requirement, German is an objectively better choice because it is an easy transition for an English speaker. Of course, he chose Mandarin, which is gonna be hard.