[Discussion]N&P Cleanup

[RedImperator]

I don't agree with the idea of ideology tests for N&P moderators. We should make sure N&P mods are capable of setting their ideology aside while moderating, but there's no reason why a left-leaning mod couldn't do that, any more than someone who hates 40k would be incapable of moderating OSF. That said, of the two existing mods/former mods on Shep's list, I think Hipper and Phongn would do a fine job, given their histories as moderators in other forums, and I'd be happy to vote for them if they want the position.

[Edi]

phongn and Hipper would be good additions. I'm willing to step in as well because I'm active there, more so than in OT where I'm currently mod. I suppose I'd be considered to be on the left-wing side of the spectrum, but as long as I stay the hell away from the modstick in threads related to Russia, I will have absolutely no problem to set my ideology aside. Obviously if I'm in the thick of a thread, I'll notify other mods instead of doing anything myself.

[Knife]

To save time;

4) Adding [Op/Ed] or equivalent as a tag for opinion only articles (along with concurrent discussion abotu what oped pieces should be included)

5) Moving "True Crime" and "Human Interest" stories to another forum

6) Adding or altering the Mod staff (we are advisory ONLY in this regard, all modding decisions take place amongst the senior staff/Mike)

8 Promoting an increased mod incursion to eliminate "me too" and other +1 postings (advisory only)

Have my support.

[Colonel Olrik]

I just checked and since it seems that I'm still a mod of N&P I'll say my bit. The quality of the discussions everywhere has decreased. I blame the kids, the virgins and the intellectually challenged that seem to always increase in numbers when a forum grows, even one with solid moderation like ours. That means that if we create more filters and rules for N&P, they will increase their posting in OT, SLAM and Testing. The Venting threads are an endless live journal for EP's and chitoryu12's pimple problems and I hate it (also tend to delete quite a few of those on sight). This is by the way my problem with Testing. While it is a good playground for some random spam, it enables the kiddies and makes them feel important in the forum.

In the end, I agree with Marina - worthless contributions should be eliminated. For example, threads from EP, chitoryu12, Invictus ChiKen and Einhander (names taken after a cursory look at the first page of threads in N&P) are in the end only a click away from removal (to testing if we're playing nice).

While Keevan is being an ass in this thread, I haven't seen him abusing his power or doing a bad job moderating - is anyone claiming that? Keevan, I'd rather see the posting reduced to a -once-in-a week- crawl than having the good posts submerged in a ton of useless threads, like it's tending to happen often. A bit like I don't subscribe to every single advertising magazine and website in order to receive a constant stream of emails in my mailbox.

[Ghost Rider]

Alrighty, let's keep this until Greg gets his computer working.

Right now the biggest canidates under discussion include:

1) Proposal for post size minimum limiting N&P : No. This is beyond a hassle for the admins and just plain difficult for a problem that can be enforced or tighten by twacking a head a bit.

2) Access restricing N&P : Again, far more hassle then worth.

3) Seperating the P from N&P : More moderating choice. Ultimately it will appear somewhere whenever there is news.

4) Adding [Op/Ed] or equivalent as a tag for opinion only articles (along with concurrent discussion abotu what oped pieces should be included) : Perfectly fine.

5) Moving "True Crime" and "Human Interest" stories to another forum : Likely OT or testing. It'll shift some of it back but it has gotten to the point these are getting to be primary +1 post spots.

6) Adding or altering the Mod staff (we are advisory ONLY in this regard, all modding decisions take place amongst the senior staff/Mike) : In this, we can discuss later. The primary reason is not just finding people, it is finding people who want to devote the time. A problem a good deal of the super moderators and other moderators have currently.

7) Creating a specific "relevance test" (my phrasing) for new posts and emboldening moderator action to seperate non-relevant posts. : No

8) Promoting an increased mod incursion to eliminate "me too" and other +1 postings (avisory only) : Yes.

9) Within #8 I have proposed that a seperate sticky thread be created within N&P containing said posts that gets moved to testing once it reaches somewhere in the 5-10 pages range. : No. Just the elimination of said +1 posting. If Mike can reach 60K with debates so can others without resorting to going "Hur-hur".

[Colonel Olrik]

From a concerned denizen:

Since the people in the senate are currently talking about N&P cleanup, I would like to suggest topics like this (edit: the Putin and Tiger thread). We have one "news" article and then tons of one-liners, even coming from a senator. This is not to single out someone like MrBean, who I have a ton of respect for.

It is also not the first time I have seen a a senator has commented one-liners or other stuff. Maybe the senate should hold itself to higher standards? And as much as I hate to say it, but Mike itself has also posted one-liners like "this is just typical Republican thinking" in the past. Also, there is at least one senator has posted conspiracy-theory related batshit in the past. Furthermore, the biggest blowup in the past week I can remember is the Duchess/Broomstick/Ender threeway shitfest in the South Ossetia thread. Not a single "peon" shitfest in the last days has reached that level.

So yeah, one liners are annoying and stuff. But maybe one should actually tell people that. So far I see a bunch of kids imitating the behaviour of senators or admins alike.

Maybe besides setting new guidelines, the senate should be a bigger example. Feel free to post this one in the senate if you want to or not.

[Ghost Rider]

From a concerned denizen:

Since the people in the senate are currently talking about N&P cleanup, I would like to suggest topics like this (edit: the Putin and Tiger thread). We have one "news" article and then tons of one-liners, even coming from a senator. This is not to single out someone like MrBean, who I have a ton of respect for.

It is also not the first time I have seen a a senator has commented one-liners or other stuff. Maybe the senate should hold itself to higher standards? And as much as I hate to say it, but Mike itself has also posted one-liners like "this is just typical Republican thinking" in the past. Also, there is at least one senator has posted conspiracy-theory related batshit in the past. Furthermore, the biggest blowup in the past week I can remember is the Duchess/Broomstick/Ender threeway shitfest in the South Ossetia thread. Not a single "peon" shitfest in the last days has reached that level.

So yeah, one liners are annoying and stuff. But maybe one should actually tell people that. So far I see a bunch of kids imitating the behaviour of senators or admins alike.

Maybe besides setting new guidelines, the senate should be a bigger example. Feel free to post this one in the senate if you want to or not.

I will say this much, yes we all have. Doesn't exonerate anyone, but it does get tiresome when that's a common response from some usual suspects. There's a world of difference between a few and every other post.

As for holding the Senate higher, that is fucking silly. I'd rather improve the dialogue in general not just center or push onto others because they have a little silver tag underneath. So if we can have something that tells this, maybe we will see an improvement overall instead using a golden mean and go "But Mike does it too!!!".

[CmdrWilkens]

Following on with that...absolutely the Senate should hold itself to the same standard that we hold everyone else to in N&P. If we do end up goign for more aggressive removal of "me too" style posts then I fully expect that any post by a Senator which serves as a +1 will be eliminated. That side of things should have no bearing on what we do but rather serve as a reminder that we are posters as well as Senators.

So yeah +1 should get eliminated regardless of who posted them but saying "Senators/Mods/Mike posted xxx" is not somehow a blank check for everyone to pile on.

Total aside the "+1 thread" idea that I was presenting was deisgned nto as a means of preserving the posts but rather so that the poster who made them (and any other disputed post for that matter) could find the post quickly and dispute the removal from the thread if they felt it was an actual contribution.

[Ender]

Since the high and mighty Senate have decreed that human interest stories are verboten in this particular forum, I'm afraid that action will have to be taken against you through formal channels Mike. I do believe some of the ideas being talked about are titles and temporary bans for the posting of threads that do not meet with the rigorous standards of the Commissariat, er, Senate...perhaps you could see clear to banning yourself for a bit? [/moderator]

As for the article, it's hardly surprising. I mean, we have had someone in just the last week on this very board defend the notion that a million dollars isn't much when you've got to pay for a celebrity life style. Because, goodness knows if you don't manage to keep your private jet flying all the other rappers and superficial assholes will make fun of you at parties and then you're in real shit. Something about ladies of the court was in amongst it all too, though that just reminds me of my idea of forcing rappers to wear ballgowns when performing to help illustrate how ridiculous most of what they say is.

Nothing says "Dont take me seriously" like four kilos of sequins with a lacy frill while talking about what a hard case you are.

To put it succinctly keeping up with the Jones' also apparently applies to those living near the Hiltons.

Good to see that this proposal isn't being met with rampant hostility and immaturity

[Connor MacLeod]

On top of that we should also eliminate arguing or sniping (personal issues) between Senators in a discussion. We've already had a few of those already, so we'll have to be rather ruthless in quashing that.

If certain topics are proven to be trouble or repettive without any sort of useful contribution, we can suggest that a moritorium be put on them. Its been done before, and that will be more effective (and relatively simpler) than always trying to pick out and punish particular offenders. (Besides which, if its proven that a fair number of people in N&P cannot debate an issue without resorting purely to flames, grudges, or whatever, they shouldn't be debating it.) Similar topics that might be blatant flamebait (Stupid fundy threads, or "stupid fundy forum" threads) could also probably be eliminated.

The restriction can be temporary (until tempers cool, or things settle down, or whatever.) or they could be permanant, depending on circumstance.

A third option is that if we get issues that are partticularily "contentious" and it starts to degenerate, we start forcing people involved in the dispute to use the Coliseum to debate it out. How and who debates could be handled on a case by case basis (if there are a particularily notable or consistent pair of debators we can throw them in there, if its more of a "group" like in some of the peak oil threads we can ask for volunteers, make them choose, etc.) Regardless if the debate goes on or not, we can (temporarily) shut down the thread if it is serving no more useful purpose than flamebait.

[Connor MacLeod]

I completely agree with Shep's points. The last couple years on N&P have degraded into attacks if you're not "left" enough. Then there's the "'Merica is eeeeevil!!" snipes in a multitude of news stories that have nothing remotely to do with America!

News story: "Venus explodes!" N&P: "Fuckin' Americans...."

Except what I think what you're talking about isnt so much "Anti-Republican/Anti-American" stuff so much as we have a number of idiots on the forum who chronically dogpile/me-too/bait/outright flame/other generally useless contributions on those particular issues because they know what sort of reaction they're likely to get.

Again, we have to go after the behaviour itself, not the topic or target of the behaviour - especially since it feeds into the whole "good way to stir up emotions/anger" aspect that is a key problem in N&P.

Not that I'm trying to suggest you think we should give American or republican topics some sort of special protection, I'm just clarifying that that aspect is only symptom of the overall problem.

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't agree with the idea of ideology tests for N&P moderators. We should make sure N&P mods are capable of setting their ideology aside while moderating, but there's no reason why a left-leaning mod couldn't do that, any more than someone who hates 40k would be incapable of moderating OSF. That said, of the two existing mods/former mods on Shep's list, I think Hipper and Phongn would do a fine job, given their histories as moderators in other forums, and I'd be happy to vote for them if they want the position.

I would think that if we're going to consider a primary requirement for a N&P mod, its going to be a.) they're able to devote some time to looking into that place b.) patience, lots and lots of patience and possibly c.) some politeness if possible, because of who and what may be needed to deal with in there.

A temperamental mod or one who has strong political affiliations one way or another (and cannot divorce themselves from it) would be an issue. So maybe rather than "ideology" we should ask "Is it going to bug you or piss you off too much to see/hear someone criticize or mock so and so?"

*snip*
Good to see that this proposal isn't being met with rampant hostility and immaturity

Oh for fuck's sake Keevan, are you TRYING to start a vendetta?

[Keevan_Colton]

Nope, just a little reminder about the stupidity of some of this shit.

Oh, and POLITENESS as a prerequisite for moderators, on STARDESTROYER.NET?

Could you please put down the motherfucking crackpipe.

[Connor MacLeod]

Nope, just a little reminder about the stupidity of some of this shit.

Oh, and POLITENESS as a prerequisite for moderators, on STARDESTROYER.NET?

Could you please put down the motherfucking crackpipe.

Do you know what a "Thread hijack" is? Or are you just covertly trying to further reinforce the fact the place needs a cleanup because it has people like you in it?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I don't agree with the idea of ideology tests for N&P moderators. We should make sure N&P mods are capable of setting their ideology aside while moderating, but there's no reason why a left-leaning mod couldn't do that, any more than someone who hates 40k would be incapable of moderating OSF. That said, of the two existing mods/former mods on Shep's list, I think Hipper and Phongn would do a fine job, given their histories as moderators in other forums, and I'd be happy to vote for them if they want the position.

Well, it's a really hard personality thing to judge. If Mike made me an admin on a whim tomorrow, I'd frankly withdraw from most debates on the board and concentrate on my responsibility of trying to be as even-handed and fair as possible in the discharge of my duties. Personal responsibility weighs heavily on a person's mind, and makes them cautious in what they do. Or it should. Ironically this is why I don't want to ever be a moderator here--it would seriously limit how involved I could get in some things in the board if I wanted to do it to my own definition of responsibility.

So I think the real question that needs to be asked of prospective moderators is if they view being a moderator as a serious responsibility in this community (which they, by extension, take seriously). Anyone who sees it as a privilege should be automatically disqualified. The ones who take the job seriously will always be the good ones, and their ideology simply doesn't matter.

[Coyote]

Keevan, if you have such low regard for the Senate, and disagree with the idea of using the Senate as a means to discuss board issues, then why don't you get the fuck out? If this is place is such an onerous chore for you, and you hold it in such contempt, you know where the door is.

I find it very telling that we're discussing problems in News & Politics, and you --with the attitude you display here-- just happens to be one of the mods there. The fact that you didn't even try to discuss it here but leapt right to bitching, personal attacks --and now whiny thread hijacks-- indicates to me, at least, that you may well be part of the problem in that very forum.

[Publius]

Nope, just a little reminder about the stupidity of some of this shit.

Why did you argue the point at all if you so obviously hold our opinions in such low regard?

Oh, and POLITENESS as a prerequisite for moderators, on STARDESTROYER.NET?

At what point did politeness become a bad quality? Does the board's liberal attitude toward profanity mean that any measure of politeness is positively undesirable? Do you think rudeness for its own sake to be a virtue?

[Ender]

Following on with that...absolutely the Senate should hold itself to the same standard that we hold everyone else to in N&P.

If we are talking in terms of written rules, I agree. Though frankly I expect anyone who is put in a leadership position (whether administrative of symbolic) to hold themselves to a higher standard of conduct. As a leader, your actions set the tone. You are an example. It is your responsibility to be a good one. I should hope that this board is sufficiently mature that no one who ever made it to such a position would need this concept spelled out for them in the rules.

[phongn]

Thank you for the vote of confidence in my presumed ability to moderate N&P, but I'd rather decline the responsibility due to time concerns. I took the G&C moderatorship back in the day since it was a relatively easy, lower-traffic forum, as opposed to the high-traffic flamebait that is N&P.

[Surlethe]

Following on with that...absolutely the Senate should hold itself to the same standard that we hold everyone else to in N&P. If we do end up goign for more aggressive removal of "me too" style posts then I fully expect that any post by a Senator which serves as a +1 will be eliminated. That side of things should have no bearing on what we do but rather serve as a reminder that we are posters as well as Senators.

So yeah +1 should get eliminated regardless of who posted them but saying "Senators/Mods/Mike posted xxx" is not somehow a blank check for everyone to pile on.

This may be a separate discussion, so I trust that if this thought is not relevant enough, it will be split. That said, it occurs to me that there is some latitude gained with status: those who have significantly contributed with high-quality posts in the past can generally get away with the occasional one-liner or human interest story. These members are, I think, implicitly permitted this latitude because they have proven they possess the judgment to not let themselves get carried away with spammy posts. On the other hand, what we are trying to reverse is a sort of tragedy of the commons: enough people feel they have the privilege of one-line spams that N&P threads have become uninformative and difficult to read. Should we require all Senators, Mods, Admins, etc. to exactly toe the line, or should we trust that the sense of responsibility they feel to the community, in conjunction with their confirmed sense of appropriate behavior, will ensure that N&P does not become too cluttered?

[Coyote]

I got this from Stormbringer in my PM box:

Would you please pass this along to the Senate, feel free to attach my name or not as you see fit.

As a board member, I think some new blood needs to be put in to moderate. The present mods are not abusing their authority or anything like that (though I think Keevan's recemt conduct is deplorable). The problem with reining in N&P is that the more active mods are the ones wading into the fray first and loudest. That doesn't really help keep the forum on track and debate topics worthwhile. If anything is to change in N&P, there need to be mods that are a bit less emotionally involved or are more willing to call in mods that are.

Along with that, the level of flames versus argument needs to be looked at. This is SD.net and that means rough and tumble. But the amount of content devoted to insults and name calling, both of other members and the people under discussion, is beginning to overwhelm the debate. It would be an improvement in this posters opinion to focus things more on debate and less on being crowd pleasing.

I've seen the discussion on the op-ed tag and I think that's good. If I may suggest, I think in general there needs to be more identification of sources. Some people drop a blog post and run, other seem to do it to stir things up, and some don't know any better. It would be nice if there was some expectation, possibly a rules change, that the poster could back up the bona fides of a source as it were.

[Coyote]

...it occurs to me that there is some latitude gained with status: those who have significantly contributed with high-quality posts in the past can generally get away with the occasional one-liner or human interest story. These members are, I think, implicitly permitted this latitude because they have proven they possess the judgment to not let themselves get carried away with spammy posts. On the other hand, what we are trying to reverse is a sort of tragedy of the commons: enough people feel they have the privilege of one-line spams that N&P threads have become uninformative and difficult to read. Should we require all Senators, Mods, Admins, etc. to exactly toe the line, or should we trust that the sense of responsibility they feel to the community, in conjunction with their confirmed sense of appropriate behavior, will ensure that N&P does not become too cluttered?

A bit of self-discipline might be a good thing. I think there is a distinct difference between abusing power/privileges and just getting a little lazy. I fear that some of us, and I'll admit myself, have probably just gotten somewhat lazy in our posting. While we can get away with the occasional one-liner, we should try to set a better example.

[CmdrWilkens]

Once again, and ya'll know who you are, quite fucking making this personal. Yeah Yeah Yeah, I get that some of us just want to shit in each other's lawns but confine this discussion to comments related to improving N&P.

Keevan either make some concrete suggestions or let it fucking be. We understand that you are oppossed to any of the changes proposed so either propose something different or shut up. Once you've said 'I object" you don't need to keep shouting it every time someone else voices their support

Everyone jumping on Keevan keep it out of this thread. Take it to PMs, take it to a fucking HoS or Testing thread but take it out of this thread. If your post does not relate to ideas or proposals made or that you are making for improving N&P then don't post it in this thread.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I think the idea of bringing in new moderators is a good one. As I originally noted, I think the board frankly needs a fair number more anyway.

[Connor MacLeod]

Broomstick and Surlethe might be good options for moderator. If Mad is still around or active I might nominate him as well.