SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[CmdrWilkens]

We'll see about that.

We will just as soon as I can get the mods to rule on my D-day plan.

Steve, Timothy, Rogue, I need a ruling soon. In the interim I'm building my Phase 2 map.

Ryan,
By the way you do realize that you've got at best 1 Army Group in the Area and since they are spread to N Colombia and NE Venezuela as well you've got at best 1 Army in place so I somehow doubt you'll be able to stop my steamroller inside of the first week...after that it would be dicier.


If we say that the invasion was roughly 1 August (for sake of neat parallels) then mobilization was announced July 31st for Mexico but reserve units won't reach the front until some time later in the month. Active duty units, however, are already on the move. The same would be true in reverse for Colombia and her allies, Colombia announced mobilization on the 31st as well so you should be under similar time constraints (you weren't on alert earlier but you do have an Infrastructure +1 advantage on me). Any allies would have to conclude a formal agreement after hostilities and then declare mobilization afterwards, even if,as part of the crazy time dilation effect, they can cut things back the earliest your allies would be able to mobilize would be August 2nd or 3rd, after which they still need to transport their troops to the front (the status of those troops, whose command they fall under, etc are all why you wouldn't be able to conclude a treaty in 1 day even with prior negotiations). Given that I rather totally outgun you in the theater of operations by sea this means either waiting to steam a strong fleet up (at a speed of advance no better than 10 or 12 knots) or overload your existing infrastructure and do it by land (which would throw your mobilization schedules in to the shitter). In other words I don't see how you can muster crushing force within the first week but maybe you can...if the moderators clear it.

[Lonestar]

Karmic, check your PMs.

[Czechmate]

Ding! Four (five if you count the ongoing Sheppo-Dominionite thing) concurrent conflicts! One of them involving Germans!

I believe that meets the criteria for a World War...

[Steve]

Rolls for the opening Mexican advance into Panama complete. Unfortunately, Ryan, Wilkens was rolling hot dice tonight. You can consider Western Panama a write-off.

Czech and Beowulf were witnesses, Timothy and I oversaw the rolling.

[Czechmate]

Rolls for the opening Mexican advance into Panama complete. Unfortunately, Ryan, Wilkens was rolling hot dice tonight. You can consider Western Panama a write-off.

Czech and Beowulf were witnesses, Timothy and I oversaw the rolling.

It was incredible. I have the log, and I can provide the rolls if needed.

[K. A. Pital]

Well, I didn't think my leave would cause a stream of abdications from other nations that chose being socialist, and have Evincer, Norse, Ryan and all others doubting if they even should play the game. If it's critical for you guys that the USSR stays in-game to support socialist brethren, I can arrange at least the very general matters once a week or so. I don't want Karmic, Norse, Evincer and others to feel like they got shafted cause I threw a hissy fit, neither do I want to be at fault for causing the game to collapse, be restarted or something.

To explain further, I got a contract for a relatively large PC game translation with rather pressing time schedule, and it happened so that this game (meaning SDN W3) in it's war phase takes extreme attention to detail, which had me running through my military history library as if I was making a historian's thesis and consumed precious hours of my work time . I'll see how it goes, but by all means, if my presence is important for other players, I'll try to help by all I can.

In fact, considering how everyone suddenly decided to pile upon socialist players the very moment I left, it leads me to uncomfortable thoughts.

[Ryan Thunder]

Rolls for the opening Mexican advance into Panama complete. Unfortunately, Ryan, Wilkens was rolling hot dice tonight. You can consider Western Panama a write-off.

Czech and Beowulf were witnesses, Timothy and I oversaw the rolling.

Nobody has told me what or where, nor asked me what naval assets I have avaliable in that region. I don't even know how he's attacking, officially, though I have a clue.

Also, what the fuck is with this whole "fog of war" thing that's going on? He attacks while I'm at work, so he gets the initiative and I don't get to do jack shit?

Given that I rather totally outgun you in the theater of operations by sea

Does he, now?

[Steve]

Rolls for the opening Mexican advance into Panama complete. Unfortunately, Ryan, Wilkens was rolling hot dice tonight. You can consider Western Panama a write-off.

Czech and Beowulf were witnesses, Timothy and I oversaw the rolling.

Nobody has told me what or where, nor asked me what naval assets I have avaliable in that region. I don't even know how he's attacking, officially, though I have a clue.

Also, what the fuck is with this whole "fog of war" thing that's going on? He attacks while I'm at work, so he gets the initiative and I don't get to do jack shit?

Upon learning of the results of the opening Mexican attack, you will get to formulate a response starting roughly on D+7. Just as Beo and Blue got to counterattack Stas.

Given that I rather totally outgun you in the theater of operations by sea

Does he, now?

He does have genuine naval battleships and a larger fleet than you. Plus he has the advantage of early initiative.

Again, upon Wilkens posting the result of Days 1-6 you will be allowed to formulate a response as he plans for his next moves.

[Czechmate]

Rolls for the opening Mexican advance into Panama complete. Unfortunately, Ryan, Wilkens was rolling hot dice tonight. You can consider Western Panama a write-off.

Czech and Beowulf were witnesses, Timothy and I oversaw the rolling.

Nobody has told me what or where, nor asked me what naval assets I have avaliable in that region. I don't even know how he's attacking, officially, though I have a clue.

Also, what the fuck is with this whole "fog of war" thing that's going on? He attacks while I'm at work, so he gets the initiative and I don't get to do jack shit?

Unfortunately, his rolls were so good that if you had been around you likely wouldn't have been able to do anything anyways. Observe.

[20:31:34] sbbigsteve: He has three armies in that Army Group. However, I can see him having started to shift them to Panama as it became clear Mexico would pick a fight.
[20:31:58] sbbigsteve: Well, I'm going to be nice and presume his country carved out a good railroad system through the jungle that historically made Panama almost separate from Colombia.
[20:32:23] sbbigsteve: Let's say you face 2 Corps on the border at war start, one Corps back toward Colon as reserve, and a fourth moving up.

[20:33:45] cmdrwilkens: Anyway the narrowness of the viable terrain (only about 80km of front between the mountains and the sea) I'm also engaging in some small coast hugging amphibious operations
[20:34:30] cmdrwilkens: 4 Armies, 8 Corps, 24 Divisions (plus 8 additional Coprs Arty Brigades) with 15k/division and 5k/arty brigade

[20:36:20] sbbigsteve: Well, we'll do the roll like this: 2 means abject failure, the Colombian resistance is far better than expected and your advance doesn't go far. 3-5 means only a few objectives are achieved with severe loss. 6-8 means general success. And I'm looking at it, not sure which unit is which though.
[20:38:59] sbbigsteve: 9-11 means spectacular success, all obectives achieved, severe loss inflicted on Panamaian forces; perhaps even a couple divisions encircled and forced to surrender, and a 12 is a devastating Mexican success.

[20:48:54] cmdrwilkens: cmdrwilkens rolled 2 6-sided dice: 4 6
[20:48:54] sbbigsteve: Well, roll two times.
[20:49:04] DagorladSurvivor: 10 for the land attack!
[20:49:14] sbbigsteve: Okay, 10.
[20:49:16] sbbigsteve: 9-11 means spectacular success, all obectives achieved, severe loss inflicted on Panamaian forces; perhaps even a couple divisions encircled and forced to surrender
[20:49:22] sbbigsteve: *objectives
[20:49:33] sbbigsteve: So your starting land attack up to, say, D+10, goes smashingly-well.
[20:49:40] sbbigsteve: Now roll for amphib operation.
[20:49:48] cmdrwilkens: cmdrwilkens rolled 2 6-sided dice: 2 1
[20:49:53] cmdrwilkens: Noooooooo!
[20:49:59] DagorladSurvivor: gallipoli'd!
[20:50:01] cmdrwilkens:
[20:50:20] sbbigsteve: Yeah, amphib attack suffers heavy losses and your forces are generally fail to get past the initial beachhead.
[20:50:32] sbbigsteve: That said, the smashing success of the land attack probably permits your land forces to link up with them.

[20:54:03] cmdrwilkens: Okay I'm going to make 4 rolls: Phase 2 land, Phase 2 Amphib 1, Phase 2 Amphib 2, Phase 2 Amphib 3
[20:54:09] cmdrwilkens: cmdrwilkens rolled 2 6-sided dice: 5 5
[20:54:14] cmdrwilkens: cmdrwilkens rolled 2 6-sided dice: 5 3
[20:54:22] cmdrwilkens: cmdrwilkens rolled 2 6-sided dice: 3 5
[20:54:28] cmdrwilkens: cmdrwilkens rolled 2 6-sided dice: 3 6
[20:54:30] MHui 421: smashing!
[20:54:31] sbbigsteve: Oh damn.
[20:54:33] sbbigsteve: Hot dice!
[20:54:35] DagorladSurvivor: 10, 8, 8, 9
[20:54:46] sbbigsteve: Mexico's Phase 2 is a complete success.
[20:54:50] DagorladSurvivor: the Mexican blitzkrieg rolls on!
[20:54:58] cmdrwilkens: Yay for superior Mexican firepower
[20:55:01] sbbigsteve: The land attack and D+6 amphib are spectacular successes, though not "total smashing" ones.
[20:55:18] sbbigsteve: The D+4 and D+5 attacks are full successes, though not spectacular.

[21:01:21] DagorladSurvivor: the Mexicans have gained, what
[21:01:40] sbbigsteve: I'd say pretty much all of Western Panama by D+10, D+12.
[21:01:41] DagorladSurvivor: ~100mi?
[21:01:48] DagorladSurvivor: nice.
[21:02:05] sbbigsteve: The daring attack on Colon will ignite the imaginations of naval planners the world over.
[21:02:22] sbbigsteve: Probably spurring more development from Cascadia's own Marines on amphibious assaults.

[CmdrWilkens]

Just to further clarify: this map shows the results of the operations.

The estimates of Colombian casualties are based on the degree of success Mexican forces achieved. The locations are also estimates but for 1 day of staging and 4 days of advance I estimated movement of 350-400 miles however they are not binding in any way, they are estimates I made for the sake of visual clarity

Ryan I've got an NF 4 versus an NF 3 for you and oh yes and I out gun a couple NF 5s in terms of Capital ship firepower. You have yet to post a ship that can effectively engage my 420 mm/50 caliber guns. It would take a rather highly optimized deployment on your part to do anything more than harass my ships.

[Steve]

Honestly, though, your fleet's a bit capital-heavy, someone with a superior force of light ships could end up torpedoing your battle line rather badly.

[K. A. Pital]

The locations are also estimates but for 1 day of staging and 4 days of advance I estimated movement of 350-400 miles however they are not binding in any way, they are estimates I made for the sake of visual clarity

What the fuck is this? How motorized are your forces? Infantry divisions making 100 miles a day? In 1925? Are you sure? This is fucking IMPOSSIBLE.

People, are you in 1941 or even in 1980? How can the mods roll dices for 350-400 MILES!!! (700 kM!!!) per 4 days advances in 1925!!! That is infeasible and should disqualify the player.

[Steve]

Well, I didn't think my leave would cause a stream of abdications from other nations that chose being socialist, and have Evincer, Norse, Ryan and all others doubting if they even should play the game. If it's critical for you guys that the USSR stays in-game to support socialist brethren, I can arrange at least the very general matters once a week or so. I don't want Karmic, Norse, Evincer and others to feel like they got shafted cause I threw a hissy fit, neither do I want to be at fault for causing the game to collapse, be restarted or something.

To explain further, I got a contract for a relatively large PC game translation with rather pressing time schedule, and it happened so that this game (meaning SDN W3) in it's war phase takes extreme attention to detail, which had me running through my military history library as if I was making a historian's thesis and consumed precious hours of my work time . I'll see how it goes, but by all means, if my presence is important for other players, I'll try to help by all I can.

In fact, considering how everyone suddenly decided to pile upon socialist players the very moment I left, it leads me to uncomfortable thoughts.

To be fair I think most of those attacks were kinda pre-planned....

I'm glad to hear you're successful right now, Stas, and as for the USSR, I'm trying to convince a good player to take over since between Timothy's RL work load and Rogue's tendency to not post for a few days it'd save me from having to run my country and the USSR.

[CmdrWilkens]

The locations are also estimates but for 1 day of staging and 4 days of advance I estimated movement of 350-400 miles however they are not binding in any way, they are estimates I made for the sake of visual clarity

What the fuck is this? How motorized are your forces? Infantry divisions making 100 miles a day? In 1925? Are you sure? This is fucking IMPOSSIBLE.

People, are you in 1941 or even in 1980? How can the mods roll dices for 350-400 MILES!!! (700 kM!!!) per 4 days advances in 1925!!! That is infeasible and should disqualify the player.

That number was for RYAN's force moving in to the area by TRAIN. My forces are advancing at about 20mi/day by land and more than that if they are making an amphibious hook. The 350-400 was to estimate how close he was able to get his available reinforcements NOT how quickly I was moving.

To clarify, check the map. For the 6 days (D-Day to the end of D+5) my landward units move a total of 130 and 140 miles or between 21 and 23 miles per day.

[Czechmate]

While you're around, Stas, I have a question;

Finland is marked as yours on the map, but IRL they declared their independence once the Russian Civil War began, after 110 years of Russian rule as the Grand Duchy of Finland. I assume you simply rejected this and put them down quickly so you could deal with other issues popping up. Do you have anything better? If you do I will accept it. If not, I'll just continue with the above assumption.

I assume a similar situation with Estonia, which also declared its' independence but is under Soviet claim. Do you have any backstory for them?

Thanks.

[K. A. Pital]

To be fair I think most of those attacks were kinda pre-planned....

I'm glad to hear you're successful right now, Stas, and as for the USSR, I'm trying to convince a good player to take over since between Timothy's RL work load and Rogue's tendency to not post for a few days it'd save me from having to run my country and the USSR.

I feel a lot of bullfuckery is going on. Where were all these "crusaders against Communism" when I was still around? Especially Shep?

Frankly, it's your decision whether to give the USSR to another player, leave it as NPC or return me some modicum of control over it, but it should support other socialist nations to the fullest extent given the circumstances.

To clarify, check the map. For the 6 days (D-Day to the end of D+5) my landward units move a total of 130 and 140 miles or between 21 and 23 miles per day.

Oh, I see. Still, picking 30 km per day advance tempo? You're meeting no resistance? Going on march speeds? Wehrmacht something? I mean, come on - it's an 80 km wide front, right?

I assume you simply rejected this and put them down quickly so you could deal with other issues popping up. Do you have anything better? If you do I will accept it. If not, I'll just continue with the above assumption.

Ah, you're one of the dogpilers who want to take part in ravaging socialist nations once their players suddenly became swarmed and ended up in extreme confusion and disarray, right? And you're planning on attacking Finland, right? Sure, sure, go ahead. Your assumptions are mostly correct, there is a Red Finland in the Soviet territories (there were enough Red supporters in Finland IRL), as there is a Red Estonia.

[loomer]

To be fair, the war with Shep started brewing when you were still active - basically right from the first division rolling up into Russia for internal security, so that one was already coming.

[K. A. Pital]

The sudden formation of alliances between various Empires before even the first year expired, often made in mere days, and likewise joint war declarations in a matter of fucking minutes - really? All of that is just very murky shit.

Amazing though how absenteeism is not counted against Beowulf and Bluewolf considering their IRL circumstances and workload, but it suddenly comes crushing down on Ryan's and Karmic's head - and instead of foreing forces experiencing counter-attacks some 90 km from the border, they get free pass and complete wins. As well as forming a massive Anti-Communist coalition (just as it was publicly rejected at the Anti-Communist Conference).

Amazingly realistic politics there!

[Steve]

I can fairly well say that Wilkens was laying groundwork to force Ryan out of Panama while you were still active. And I believe Baerne and Thanas were planning on dealing with Karmic as such as well.

Evincer informed me he simply doesn't have time to play comprehensively, and Norse is back in the game.

Amazing though how absenteeism is not counted against Beowulf and Bluewolf considering their IRL circumstances and workload, but it suddenly comes crushing down on Ryan's and Karmic's head - and instead of foreing forces experiencing counter-attacks some 90 km from the border, they get free pass and complete wins. As well as forming a massive Anti-Communist coalition (just as it was publicly rejected at the Anti-Communist Conference).

Um? Honestly, Karmic was given a week to respond, I'm sorry he was sick but stopping the game for one week on behalf of one player is a bit unfair to the rest of us - and this included the freeze period.

As for Wilkens, he had hot dice. I mean, seriously, aside from the Day 1 landing he didn't roll anything less than an 8, and he rolled 2 10s and a 9. It's simply the Mexican Army being enormously successful, and doesn't necessarily mean Ryan's forces won't inflict losses here and there, just that they were overwhelmed and forced back. If Ryan has hot dice - Ryan, if you have AIM I'm sbbigsteve, we can get you into a chatroom to roll for your responses' success, if not you can designate someone to roll for you or allow the mods to do it - he'll get the same benefit.

[Norade]

What is the in game time line of Wilkens' attacks? He said they should be assumed to start August first, so that means my ships from South America should have been in port for about a week now and my forces from Africa for a day in the in game time line, however with the attacks taking place in such unreal time, I'm not sure how any nation is able to jump in and intervene especially when we have to deal with fog of war.

[Czechmate]

I assume you simply rejected this and put them down quickly so you could deal with other issues popping up. Do you have anything better? If you do I will accept it. If not, I'll just continue with the above assumption.

Ah, you're one of the dogpilers who want to take part in ravaging socialist nations once their players suddenly became swarmed and ended up in extreme confusion and disarray, right? And you're planning on attacking Finland, right? Sure, sure, go ahead. Your assumptions are mostly correct, there is a Red Finland in the Soviet territories (there were enough Red supporters in Finland IRL), as there is a Red Estonia.

Did accusing me of being a big bad dogpiling anti-socialist make you feel better? Cause it sure ain't getting you anything else.

I announced I was mobilizing six hours before you ragequit because you weren't steamrolling Beo like you wanted to from day one. In the interest of what respect I still have for you, I will recognize that you have established Finnish and Estonian SSRs. Their recently-established Soviet puppet governments will factor into any rolls I make when I do make them with Steve and the other mods.

I have legal claim to Finland and Estonia, as they are nations or predominantly Nordic heritage and that is the common ground my nation is based on. Additionally, you got Russia into its' current situation by starting a war with Manchuria by any means necessary, so you'll get no pity from me or anyone else there. I'd eventually have had to try and take them from you whether you'd made the USSR, Tsarist Russia, or the fucking Kievan Rus, so suck it up and quit pretending you're the poor little victim being beaten up by the schoolyard bullies.

Thanks for the information, though!

[Norseman]

To explain further, I got a contract for a relatively large PC game translation with rather pressing time schedule,

Congratulations! Do you translate from English to Russian or the other way around?

and it happened so that this game (meaning SDN W3) in it's war phase takes extreme attention to detail, which had me running through my military history library as if I was making a historian's thesis and consumed precious hours of my work time . I'll see how it goes, but by all means, if my presence is important for other players, I'll try to help by all I can.

In fact, considering how everyone suddenly decided to pile upon socialist players the very moment I left, it leads me to uncomfortable thoughts.

Get your ass back in here But seriously we need all the good players we can get, it'd be better I think to have you slow down a little for a while, but still be in the game as it were. I got to say that not having the USSR in game was making me a bit worried, since quite frankly we need all the distractions etc we can get.

[Norade]

Might I suggest that rolls instead of being done by how well the attackers dice roll be done with opposed rolls with modifiers based on circumstance?

Example:
Attacker goes after fortified position with equal numbers to the defender.
Attacker rolls 2d6 defender rolls 2d6+2.

Attacker has a total victory on 7+ and up
Attack wins on 4+ and up
Attacker barely wins on 2+ and up
Attacker is repeled with few losses on 0 and up
Defender wins with light losses inflicted on -4 and up
Defender wins with moderate losses inflicted on -8 and up
Defender wins total victory on -11 and up
Defender encircles and destroys attack on -12

This way both players having hot dice can mean a touch and go war with each side jabbing at each other, or could mean a war of attrition that has stalled. (Obviously based on how circumstances surrounding the battle go.)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hmm.. the urge to get interventionist up north becomes tempting...

[CmdrWilkens]

To clarify, check the map. For the 6 days (D-Day to the end of D+5) my landward units move a total of 130 and 140 miles or between 21 and 23 miles per day.

Oh, I see. Still, picking 30 km per day advance tempo? You're meeting no resistance? Going on march speeds? Wehrmacht something? I mean, come on - it's an 80 km wide front, right?

I've got 6 corps opposing 2 with armored and mechanized elements interspersed with success rolls of 10 for smashing success including possibly encircling one whole division. Essentially I am moving slightly over the pace von Kluck did between Mons and the Marne but I've also got a greater mechanized element. My artillery probably isn't keeping pace so I'm planning at least a day or two of rest for the 5th and 9th while the 14th and Nicaraguan move on Cuidad which should allow them to be back up to 100% effective by D+7.


As to the question of timing, I issued the notes on December 6th and 7th and the ultimatum on the 11th. After the note was posted Ryan did nothing to prepare his forces. While some paranoia likely led to things like leave cancellation and the like he did nothing to prepare for mobilization until D-1 when the ultimatum was issued. Now there is something for not being around but he had 4-5 days to post anything about getting his forces ready prior to the Ultimatum and another 2 afterwards to issue orders. In other words he had a week between when I began staging the war and when I finally rolled for success in my initial operations and he did nothing other than the alert and mobilization order.

Now I gave him credit for issuing orders as Steve placed 4 of his 6 available corps in or immediately adjacent to Panama...however I stationed 8 corps for this attack with 6 in reserve. Amongst the forces that can be in theater within 72 hours from H-Hour I held a 14-6 advantage so I don't know how much else could be done on his part.

What is the in game time line of Wilkens' attacks? He said they should be assumed to start August first, so that means my ships from South America should have been in port for about a week now and my forces from Africa for a day in the in game time line, however with the attacks taking place in such unreal time, I'm not sure how any nation is able to jump in and intervene especially when we have to deal with fog of war.

I'm assuming August 1st since it would be roughly correct AND neatly historical.