SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread

[Beowulf]

Steve on the idea of raising and/or upgrading divisions you should probably also require the point cost to re-equip with newer models. In other works if you have an armored brigade with your Mk III Tank and have spent the time to test and develop your Mk IV tank then the cost of replacing your Mk IIIs with MkIVs should be the same (in industrial points and time) as if you were equipping an empty division. This would reflect time to familiarize with new equipment, alter the supply chain, and actually acquire then new vehicles.

Well, yes, but it shouldn't cost the same as raising a new division from whole cloth, since certain fundamentals will remain the same (how to conduct armored warfare, for example, or how to lead men). You also don't have to send 10,000-20,000 some men through Basic. (I'm not sure what the teeth to tail ratio was back then, certainly better than the 1:10 of today.)

[Steve]

Actually, a refinement here.

Army Focus would represent a percentage of population in the Army, either as conscripts or as volunteers. It would range, I think, from 5% at a 5 (thus a 5 million man army for a 4 in Pop or a 6.25 million man army for a 5) to something smaller like a 1% or even .5% for 1 (thus a Pop 5 would have a 1.25 million man Army or even a 512,500 man one, approximately).

Then SML tells you how much of this force is in active service and how much are reserves to be mobilized. At max I was thinking 5 SML could represent something like 80% of the force in active service, only 20% in reserves, and with a negative modifier for industrial points in peacetime to reflect you've taken an excessive amount of workers from your workforce. If you're at zero then you'd probably have like 99% of your Army as reserves and only 1% in active service, though I may make SML determine Army Focus size to an extent, like a minimum of 1 SML for any Army Focus over 1. Though this is primarily academic since everyone has an SML of 2 or greater I think.

[CmdrWilkens]

Steve,

For the army numbers vs mobilization numbers here are some thoughts:

1) The Army Focus numbers shoudl be your active duty military...including support troops. Since even in this era you are going to have a 3 or 4:1 ratio of support/garrison troops to deployable infantry. Thus an Army Focus of 2 (400k troops) woudl only yield 80,000-100,000 combat troops which is repectable.

2) SML Should indicate the number of troops in your ready reserve, that is conscripts who have been roatated into reserve, over age reserve, or old age reserve divisions. These would be the number who could be recalled immediately (well within the period of mobilization) and outfitted from existing stocks. I woudl probably go with the idea that SML represents a multiplier on your avaialble manpower. In other words an SML of 2 means that your reserves account for 2x your active duty troops, and SML of 3 means 3x, and so on.

3) Total potential manpower should be based upon economy alone (higher industry if we include it should actually be a detriment as it requires additional manpower to keep functioning at that level). My thought is that again the economy score should be a multiplier, with the percentage of available troops being calculated as 3x the Economy score. Thus an economy of 3 could have a total committment of 9%


- We could probably allow for brief and temproarily exceeding this number however there shoudl be consequences (mobilization cannot be maintained for as long, economy suffers a post war -1 hit, etc)



Anyway those are some suggestions.

[Steve]

Economy already provides a time period for mobilization before economic overheating occurs.

Your idea for standing army is interesting, but the problem is that it would lead armies to be too small. Historically mobilization would jump army size by like 8 to 10 times, not only up to 5.

The system I proposed would follow the realism of one's population determining the size of one's army, peacetime or otherwise, instead of fixed numbers. And I think it's simpler for people if we just consider support personnel as part of divisions instead of saying "calculate this percentage for how many of your troops actually shoot at the bad guys". Maybe get some firm data on the army's logistical tail to the head before deciding for certain on whether to just count support troops in normal army sizes or to have a player count them out of standing military, etc.

[K. A. Pital]

USSR had a standing army of 960,000 in 1925. Mobilization allowed to bring armies to 3-5 million men.

[Norseman]

Not only did some countries have fairly large armies, *but* if you have conscription you will always have a lot of conscripts on hand, after all they need to be trained etc etc. Thus a place like Brazil would always have at least 50%-80% of one conscript class available to them, possible of two conscript classes if there's two year conscription. Then there should be whatever units are prepared for immediate mobilization, followed by finally the overall percentage of the population that can be mobilized.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

I hate to ask yet another question, having contributed literally zilch thus far, but, in regards to the point finalizations due in by this Friday, at what state are the rules for point allocations? It seems SML systems are near to completion but there are still a few things I'm not certain about quite yet, specifically whether or not one can use the Industry "+1" to push Naval Focus up from 2 to 3 with an Ind/Econ total of only 6. As it is, the requirement for NF 3 is an Ind/Econ total of 7 (though NF 2 has been dropped to a 5 total and NF 1 a 4 total). Now, I think I remember hearing one couldn't do this yet I know others have. I may just be the odd one out on this, seems a Navy of 2 is pretty poor for maintaining and defending my rather far-flung colonial territories in a world where Navies in the 3+ range are common. Though, I may just be getting greedy.

I'm well aware that crafting the rules it quite a task and don’t mean to prod or rush those working hard on them, but when will the rules reach completion? I just feel I need a good idea of what I can do and how everything works before I either decide to leave my points list up as it is or makes some tweaks here and there before the deadline.

[Lascaris]

Actually, a refinement here.

Army Focus would represent a percentage of population in the Army, either as conscripts or as volunteers. It would range, I think, from 5% at a 5 (thus a 5 million man army for a 4 in Pop or a 6.25 million man army for a 5) to something smaller like a 1% or even .5% for 1 (thus a Pop 5 would have a 1.25 million man Army or even a 512,500 man one, approximately).

Too low. The French actually put in uniform 5 million men when mobilized in 1939, about 12.5% of their population. Nearly everyone else with conscription could and did mobilize about 7%. Add to that that a conscript class would go at 0,5-0,75% of the population and the peacetime army with conscription gets at about 1.5% of population.

[Lascaris]

I'm well aware that crafting the rules it quite a task and don’t mean to prod or rush those working hard on them, but when will the rules reach completion? I just feel I need a good idea of what I can do and how everything works before I either decide to leave my points list up as it is or makes some tweaks here and there before the deadline.

And are we dropping the population limitation for a 4 sized economy to 2 after all? I think we should given the historical background but then as I was the first to point out I will be of the ones benefiting from this.

[Norseman]

I'm well aware that crafting the rules it quite a task and don’t mean to prod or rush those working hard on them, but when will the rules reach completion? I just feel I need a good idea of what I can do and how everything works before I either decide to leave my points list up as it is or makes some tweaks here and there before the deadline.

And are we dropping the population limitation for a 4 sized economy to 2 after all? I think we should given the historical background but then as I was the first to point out I will be of the ones benefiting from this.

Most of the industrialised nations either had huge tracts of land or colonies to help them get started. Thus population 2 should still require some of that I think, at least in this age.

Actually, a refinement here.

Army Focus would represent a percentage of population in the Army, either as conscripts or as volunteers. It would range, I think, from 5% at a 5 (thus a 5 million man army for a 4 in Pop or a 6.25 million man army for a 5) to something smaller like a 1% or even .5% for 1 (thus a Pop 5 would have a 1.25 million man Army or even a 512,500 man one, approximately).

Too low. The French actually put in uniform 5 million men when mobilized in 1939, about 12.5% of their population. Nearly everyone else with conscription could and did mobilize about 7%. Add to that that a conscript class would go at 0,5-0,75% of the population and the peacetime army with conscription gets at about 1.5% of population.

Well that'd depend on whether or not you ran one, two, or three years of conscription wouldn't it? However yes, the player should declare at the beginning whether he is running a conscript army or a volunteer army. There's benefits and drawbacks to both.

[Lascaris]

I'm well aware that crafting the rules it quite a task and don’t mean to prod or rush those working hard on them, but when will the rules reach completion? I just feel I need a good idea of what I can do and how everything works before I either decide to leave my points list up as it is or makes some tweaks here and there before the deadline.

And are we dropping the population limitation for a 4 sized economy to 2 after all? I think we should given the historical background but then as I was the first to point out I will be of the ones benefiting from this.

Most of the industrialised nations either had huge tracts of land or colonies to help them get started. Thus population 2 should still require some of that I think, at least in this age.

Nonsense to be blunt. The grand majority of the colonial territory was useless and actually drawing money from the metropolis instead of the other way round. What made the major economies was the industriousness of their people back at home as traders and in manufacturing. Germany is the prime example of this, by 1900 it was already ahead of everyone else sans the United States in economy and industry (arguably 5 in industry and 4 in economy if not outright 5s on both categories) with a population still in the order of 50 million (56 IMS in 1900) and negligible colonies. Unless of course you believe Germany's growth was due to the possession of Namimbia and Papua Nea Guinea.

[K. A. Pital]

The grand majority of the colonial territory was useless and actually drawing money from the metropolis instead of the other way round.

Nonequal exchange with the colonies allowed to accumulate initial capital for industrialization prior to Industrial Revolution. The Ricardian mechanism of using colonies as raw resource appendages whilst producing high-tech items in the Metropole ensured industrialization of the Metropole and the backwardness of Colonies. This is the crux of colonialism and the initial accumulation of capital.

When the Metropole was already industrialized, the colonies became a drain, but that precise time for each nation is a subject of debate actually.

Germany is the prime example of this, by 1900 it was already ahead of everyone else sans the United States in economy and industry

No, Britain was industrialized at 100% in 1900, whereas US and Germany were slightly behind.

[Steve]

Army Focus will determine base military size, SML will determine how much counts toward standing army and how much is reserve pool (for volunteer forces this reflects stuff like the US National Guard, for conscription forces it represents how many conscript classes can be called to the colors immediately). An SML below 3 will actually reduce overall army size regardless, with the two combined percentages for Active and Reserve not reaching 100%, reflecting a country that for various reasons isn't drafting/conscripting many troops, if they do at all. The historical US in this era would be an SML 1. 3-5 would equal 100% with active and reserve together, but with increasing numbers of forces already in service. 4 would represent a somewhat militarized state, with maybe more like a third of all conscripts/draftees called up (historically most nations only had an eighth or a tenth of their forces standing at any time). 5 would be a garrison state (Like I imagine Shep and Lonestar are going for) with a large, active field army in use. Maybe even have a 110% score overall between standing forces and mobilization pool, though it would also reduce their nations' industrial ability and suck up the military manpower pool (as established by Infra + Econ) more greatly from the start.

[Steve]

As for mobilization, it would logically be a combination of Home Territory or even total territory (showing expanse of area that units must travel through) and Army Focus (to represent how many troops are being moved) modified by Infrastructure (network of railroads and ships for river and sea travel that permit transport of mobilized troops). The higher the former two are and the lower the last, the longer it takes. The lower the former two and the higher the last, the shorter.

For a benchmark, in 1914 the French Army was fully mobilized in 2 weeks and within six days had enough troops to launch initial attacks into Alsace. Undoubtedly France in 1914 was the equivalent of an Army Focus of 5, Infrastructure wise a 4 or even 5 I believe. Germany took a similar time to mobilize with a larger force but Europe's best rail net. And finally even Russia, with a larger army and less infrastructure, was mobilized in about a month.

Therefore it's logical to say that a 3 in HT, a 5 in Infrastructure, and a 5 in Army should probably mobilize in 2 weeks. Anyone have any ideas for how to draw up a mobilization time scale from that, in terms of mathematically proportionate?

[Steve]

I hate to ask yet another question, having contributed literally zilch thus far, but, in regards to the point finalizations due in by this Friday, at what state are the rules for point allocations? It seems SML systems are near to completion but there are still a few things I'm not certain about quite yet, specifically whether or not one can use the Industry "+1" to push Naval Focus up from 2 to 3 with an Ind/Econ total of only 6. As it is, the requirement for NF 3 is an Ind/Econ total of 7 (though NF 2 has been dropped to a 5 total and NF 1 a 4 total). Now, I think I remember hearing one couldn't do this yet I know others have. I may just be the odd one out on this, seems a Navy of 2 is pretty poor for maintaining and defending my rather far-flung colonial territories in a world where Navies in the 3+ range are common. Though, I may just be getting greedy.

I'm well aware that crafting the rules it quite a task and don’t mean to prod or rush those working hard on them, but when will the rules reach completion? I just feel I need a good idea of what I can do and how everything works before I either decide to leave my points list up as it is or makes some tweaks here and there before the deadline.

Who's doing this? They'd better not be. I never said that the Industry-provided Focus bonus could go past the NF limit derived from Industry and Economy.

And Lascaris, thanks for that information. Assuming France the basis for a 5 in Army, then, we would have an Army Focus at 12-13% population, SML would determine how many men are actually in the field.

[CmdrWilkens]

USSR had a standing army of 960,000 in 1925. Mobilization allowed to bring armies to 3-5 million men.

I don't know if you have it handy or even reasonably available but what percentage of that was combat troops? I mean folks get caught up in total army sizes without realizing that since the beginnign of the gunpowder era the supporting logistical establishment neccessarry to support combat forces has grown almsot continuously.

As a for instance today the authorized strength of the USMC is just over 200,000 yet it can only field 2 full and 1 under strength divisions.

[Steve]

A good question, I'm not sure of these proportions do count the support units, though in this era the logistical tail is smaller.... And IIRC the military just usually took over existing transport resources, with personnel, to provide service if needed.

Right now I'm just working with raw numbers of population, we can figure out how many personnel would actually be frontline combat personnel.

[CmdrWilkens]

A good question, I'm not sure of these proportions do count the support units, though in this era the logistical tail is smaller.... And IIRC the military just usually took over existing transport resources, with personnel, to provide service if needed.

Right now I'm just working with raw numbers of population, we can figure out how many personnel would actually be frontline combat personnel.

The logistic tail is smaller biut not that small. From the time armies entered the industrial era the logistic tail has grown and grown...because it works. The ability to actually move large armies long distances requries a large quartermaster corps, the American Civil War saw a huge number of supporting troops established to support the movement by rail and river nto to mention depot, training, and recruitment troops. I don't havehard numbers (I can look for 'em) but I would say that by this era even a non-mechanized force is going to need a support establishment at least equal in size to the combat forces.

[K. A. Pital]

I never said that the Industry-provided Focus bonus could go past the NF limit derived from Industry and Economy.

You just crushed a lot of people's Navies, man As for me, I was ready for such a turn of events. I can live with a weaker economy in exchange for a greater Navy, stronger Army and more potent Industry. I was basically forced to make Industry 4, so fear my nation as my ascendancy will now proceed faster. Mwahahaha! Command industrial economy for the win.

So there's a demand of either 4 in industry or 4 in Economy as bare minimums to have NF 3. I believe many RL nations (Japan, Russia) who were secondary naval powers but had combat fleets between 500,000 and 900,000, weren't either Economy or Industry 4, but I don't really object to the USSR being more industrialized due to no Civil War.

The setup has been updated, and the +2 FOCUS bonus has been thus alotted to the Army Focus for 3+2 = 5 result.

[Steve]

Well, honestly, I've thought of maybe scaling the requirements down a bit further now that we've fixed Econ and Ind scores to shipyard capacity. I can make it an 8 for 5, a 6 for 4, a 4 for 3, etc.

OTOH, navies should be f*(@ing expensive to build and maintain. Industrial bonuses should simply let someone have a big navy if they want without spending points from elsewhere. Hrm. 9 for 5, 7 for 4, 5 for 3 perhaps.....

Yeah, I like that. *goes to make changes*

[K. A. Pital]

Navies should be expensive. Actually, I have no problem with such harsh requirements, I have re-arranged my points in accordance with requirements for an overall power boost for my nation, only suffering -200,000 to the peacetime Army numbers - but it's actually still ~160,000 greater than the real Soviet peacetime Army of the same period, that being 640,000.

My mobilization plan is very modest so far (until 1927 the USSR didn't consider or plan on mobilizing more than 1,2 million men) and well withing the capabilities of my economy. Accidentally, I do need that 4th Industrial level to be able to provide for both my Army, Navy and Airforce in the numbers close to real for the USSR in the 1920s-1930s, thus my re-arrangement is probably final.

[Steve]

Good, though keep in mind I've altered the Army focus to represent proportion of population as a mobilization pool, or "standing manpower", which will be modified by SML into actual peacetime forces and reserve pool. I'm still determining that. Also altered NF's requirements to the odd-numbered proportions higher up, a fair balance I think between consideration of expense and availability. It scales even from 1 to 2, with 2 and 4 combined respectively, then it goes to 5-7-9 for 3 through 5.

[K. A. Pital]

So... what does this give? My standing manpower is POP5xAF4, or 0,01x147 million = 14,700,000 (I presume that's the mobilization reserve? Pretty close to RL USSR, it mobilized 14,000,000 in 1941)...

What is my actual peacetime army? 10% of the manpower?

I mean, look - realistically, even a USSR that is obscessively militaristic and/or in a state of semi-mobilization, it would hardly put more than 3,5 million men under gun in peace times (1941 army had 3,5 million in it). Realistically, I'd keep around 1,2 million men active (MP 1927). That's achievable with AF1.

This is now getting ridiculous because I'll have AF1 + SML 3 to have my real historical army and now I get 3 spare points to throw around. Wow, these three points go to the mighty red airforce and voila, my nation became a hyperpower from the very start.

[Steve]

Don't worry about the specter of the monstrous Red Air Force, folks, Stas and I are busy in IMs trying to figure this out....

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, it seems the system is in the process of working out.