Avatar Military Wankers Read This First

[Ford Prefect]

I see no problem here.

And that, my friend, is the problem.

[Connor MacLeod]

I remember watching Avatar and the thing that really struck me was.. Sully's "attack" on the bomber dropship really seemed to have been orchestrated to maximize the drama, maximize the Na'vi deaths, and pretty much minimize effectiveness so that the Deus Ex Machina could happen. The exact reasons escape me now as its been over a year (or more) since I've seen it, but I do remember that super dragon thingy Sully had flinging choppers around pretty effortlessly (for example.)

That was really the thing that bugged me about the movie. I can understand and accept that its not "original" in its concepts (I forget what the comparison was, but I knwo someone likened it ot Dances with Wolves mixed with another movie) but there were elements that felt basically.. eh forced. But if you don't think too hard its a decent movie.

[Ford Prefect]

Toruk could fling around the Scorpions and Samsons like they were toys, but Ikran are another matter entirely.

[NecronLord]

Do we know if the ships are even under full RDA control? I can't see Earth nations being happy with a potential planetkiller in private hands.

On another board, someone suggested the RDA could have "accidently" let some junk drift out from an incoming ship into Pandora, rather than facing the consequences of using outright WMDs.

The ship is propelled by a presumably terawatt-grade laser on its outward journey. It is highly unlikely that its high speed course intersects Pandora's, or if the laser missed even fractionally, a huge chunk of Pandora would get fucking fried.

Whoever wrote that should remember the analogy about space combat being like hitting a dime with a bullet at five thousand yards.

It would be shockingly, blindingly obvious to the Federal Bureau of Investigations or whoever that it had been deliberate.

[mr friendly guy]

While this enunciates the dominant SDN position quite clearly, it does nothing to address those people (here or elsewhere) who tend to subscribe closer to political realism, where the ends justify the means.

Usually then people turn it around and give numerous examples where its the humans on the receiving end, and whether its ok for them to get the Na'vi treatment. I predict it will play out in several ways

1. They will run away thus ending the argument.

2. They will make some reply which doesn't actually answer yes or no, or in some circumstances, but it looks like they didn't run away.

3. They will change their tune when its humans in the hot seat and say well expect us to fight back, ie the Adam Griff argument. Naturally the argument falls apart because it fails to be internally consistent as a "universal" rule.

4. They argue <insert name> exceptionalism, ie its only ok for people I like to do it. This at least maintains consistency but they naturally fail to explain why humans should have exceptionalism. Apparently its self evident. In fact, how is this argument not different from Christian's argument that if God does it, it automatically becomes good? It is built on the same shaky foundations.

[Molyneux]

I'm not sure if this is off-topic, but given that this is the only Avatar thread currently extant: did anyone else see the film and immediately assume that the Navi, their planet, or both had to be artificial? I understand the danger of "I can't understand it, therefore it's impossible", but still - try as I might, I cannot come up with a way for that kind of setup to develop without intelligent meddling.

[Ilya Muromets]

I'm not sure if this is off-topic, but given that this is the only Avatar thread currently extant: did anyone else see the film and immediately assume that the Navi, their planet, or both had to be artificial? I understand the danger of "I can't understand it, therefore it's impossible", but still - try as I might, I cannot come up with a way for that kind of setup to develop without intelligent meddling.

I always thought that it was pretty obvious that they were made by the the strange, unknowable entity known as the Kha-merron.

[Whiskey144]

And that, my friend, is the problem.

I don't get it. It seems pretty reasonable to want to get a return-on-investment with something as colossal as an interstellar spacecraft and the infrastructure to support it.

Now, the exploitation and attempted genocide of the Na'vi, I could see that as bad thing. Especially within the context of Avatar, wherein the Earth-powers specifically ruled that the Na'vi were to be contacted and whatnot.

[SylasGaunt]

I remember watching Avatar and the thing that really struck me was.. Sully's "attack" on the bomber dropship really seemed to have been orchestrated to maximize the drama, maximize the Na'vi deaths, and pretty much minimize effectiveness so that the Deus Ex Machina could happen. The exact reasons escape me now as its been over a year (or more) since I've seen it, but I do remember that super dragon thingy Sully had flinging choppers around pretty effortlessly (for example.)

I remember some people were talking about hitting the shuttle with a gunship to down it (though that ignores that IIRC there is a point where the flaming wreckage of a scorpion crashes into it and it just keeps right on chugging along).

Given that there really isn't a method of attacking the shuttle that doesn't involve wading into automatic weapons fire in an attempt to either:

a.) Board and monkey with the engines like Jake did.
b.) Board and take out the payload which Tsu'tey tried to do.

There was also some talk of trudy going after it with her copter but given that it stood up to a helicopter crashing into it I'm not sure what amounts to small arms are going to be worth much.

[Connor MacLeod]

I remember some people were talking about hitting the shuttle with a gunship to down it (though that ignores that IIRC there is a point where the flaming wreckage of a scorpion crashes into it and it just keeps right on chugging along).

Given that there really isn't a method of attacking the shuttle that doesn't involve wading into automatic weapons fire in an attempt to either:

a.) Board and monkey with the engines like Jake did.
b.) Board and take out the payload which Tsu'tey tried to do.

There was also some talk of trudy going after it with her copter but given that it stood up to a helicopter crashing into it I'm not sure what amounts to small arms are going to be worth much.

I'm not sure just ONE sort of attack would be an insta-kill either. But at the same time they made the attacks pretty piecemeal. I remebmer the one Na'Vi (Tsu'tey?) getting onboard the back of the dropship (and doing some nasty damage close up. If he hadn't kept getting shot or had more warriors been in there, they'd have likely won out.) I remember them trying to use grenades to stop it (or at least Sully did). And I remember the gunship (doing precisely dick.)

Am I misremembering or forgetting anything about that?

[Simon_Jester]

Their strategy is a bit simplistic: "okay, we know they're coming through here, everybody hide at this location then jump out and ambush them:" the sort of thing that works well when coordinating hunter-warriors.

Judging by the Na'vi's actual behavior, the tactics are even more simplistic: "Do what seems best." No one has time to work out a tactical plan of attack more complicated than and the weak points of their big flying metal birds are here, here, and here, so if you're going to throw rocks or shoot arrows at them, that's where to aim for."

And yet, that's not surprising. The problem is that they're stuck working with the troops they have, on the schedule forced on them by the enemy.

The Na'vi are tribal warriors; their coordination isn't going to be all that stellar. They'll have experience in coordinated hunting tactics, but that only works well against animals that they already know how to fight- against a new opponent that's totally different from anything they've dealt with before, they're all too likely to fall back on their experience as individual fighters.

So it's very difficult to coordinate all their different options.

Tsu'tey's attack makes best use of the natives' weapons and resources, but was an opportunistic move that they couldn't know in advance would work, so planning for it was tricky- it was only possible because the bomb-carrying shuttle had its cargo hatch open. Tsu'tey gets a bright idea and tries to go for the place in the back of the big metal bird where he can see men to fight, instead of just steel. But because they're fighting as individuals and not squadrons, there was no one on hand to support him when he came up with the idea. So he goes in alone, and if anyone else among the Na'vi tried the same thing they were too late to save him.

Jake's attack has a high probability of success, and at least he can sort of fight alongside the natives since he's riding a giant pterodactyl instead of a helicopter, but even so, no one else can really share in his expertise and tactics. Where he goes and how he goes there, they cannot easily follow.

Finally, Trudy with the helicopter has pretty good weapons, but everything about her equipment is so different from the natives' that there's no way to use the two together without a lot of planning and experimentation. It would hardly do much good for Trudy to find herself firing into a confused melee of Na'vi and RDA fliers, for example, and that's a real risk if they make their attacks too close together.

[Agent Sorchus]

Helicopter vs Helicopter might even play into the strength's of the RDA pilots, since it has the most relative similarities to what they were trained to fight against.

[NecronLord]

Tsu'tey's attack makes best use of the natives' weapons and resources, but was an opportunistic move that they couldn't know in advance would work, so planning for it was tricky- it was only possible because the bomb-carrying shuttle had its cargo hatch open. Tsu'tey gets a bright idea and tries to go for the place in the back of the big metal bird where he can see men to fight, instead of just steel. But because they're fighting as individuals and not squadrons, there was no one on hand to support him when he came up with the idea. So he goes in alone, and if anyone else among the Na'vi tried the same thing they were too late to save him.

Another warrior comes in seconds after, copying him, but gets gunned down too.

Finally, Trudy with the helicopter has pretty good weapons, but everything about her equipment is so different from the natives' that there's no way to use the two together without a lot of planning and experimentation. It would hardly do much good for Trudy to find herself firing into a confused melee of Na'vi and RDA fliers, for example, and that's a real risk if they make their attacks too close together.

I did like the paint-job on both her and her gunship, mind, at least they did some forward planning.

[andrewgpaul]

And that, my friend, is the problem.

I don't get it. It seems pretty reasonable to want to get a return-on-investment with something as colossal as an interstellar spacecraft and the infrastructure to support it.

Now, the exploitation and attempted genocide of the Na'vi, I could see that as bad thing. Especially within the context of Avatar, wherein the Earth-powers specifically ruled that the Na'vi were to be contacted and whatnot.

You keep on missing Ford's point.

The Venture Star is the forefront of human imagination and ingenuity, and what is it being used for? To buy the CEO of RDA a nicer house.

You're quite correct; if you assume that financial profit is the driving force for society, then of course you'll want to make sure your expensive gadgetry isn't squandered. However, Ford appears to be saying that making the profit motive the cornerstone of your society isn't necessarily a good idea.

[Zixinus]

Actually time may have been short: Jake was busy gathering the tribes and he's the only one that has both the appropriate military knowledge and . I'm not certain how much time actually elapsed, but it may have been just enough for Jake to get a rest, eat, pass out radios and show how to use them, get warpaint on and get out to the battlefield before his enemies would arrive.

Educating the appropriate Na'Vi might have taken days he didn't have. Remember, he is still learning the language and there is the small bit about the fact that there were literary thousands of Na'Vi about. We see no evidence of the Na'Vi having written language, so that would mean that Jake would have to do it by word of mouth.

Also, look at the ground units: the cavalry charge was so counter-productive that they might have been better served if the warriors got off their mounts and taken potshots from the trees. Now, to us modern people who believe in efficient military action being mostly about killing the enemy before they kill you, that sounds a reasonable course of action. But is it to the Na'Vi? Proud warriors and hunters, with a tribal society? I am not certain how well we know the warrior-culture of the Na'Vi, but I doubt that they would see such an action as productive. They would see it as cowardly, which in the forms of warfare they are experienced in means ineffective, thus bad.

If I try to think of how the assets at Jake's exposer would be better used, I keep running into the same problems again and again: a, there is no time; b, the Na'Vi are not organised fighters for such a large-scale warfare; c, any plan we have in mind would require rehearsal or practice, which may be an alien concept to the Na'Vi and even d, Jake may have not been sure what the effects of his attack may be.

If I try to look at the situation from a tactician's eyes, all I see is being stuck between a rock and a hard place: you have to win, but you can't do it effectively. Jake is not a tactician/strategist: he's just a grunt who finds himself in a situation where he has to do what he has to do. Granted, I doubt he is clueless, but thinking about a plan is a very different thing from actually doing it.

[Whiskey144]

You keep on missing Ford's point.

The Venture Star is the forefront of human imagination and ingenuity, and what is it being used for? To buy the CEO of RDA a nicer house.

You're quite correct; if you assume that financial profit is the driving force for society, then of course you'll want to make sure your expensive gadgetry isn't squandered. However, Ford appears to be saying that making the profit motive the cornerstone of your society isn't necessarily a good idea.

I misunderstood his point; I thought he was saying that expecting some kind of tangible, semi-immediate benefit was unreasonable, not that the use of the Venture Star to get the RDA richer than imaginable was a bad thing.

Which I rather agree; that the RDA has a total monopoly over this endeavor, and is benefiting monetarily in an enormous amount, is pretty messed up.

I'll note, however, that I'd expect for expensive gadgetry to "pay for itself", if you will, no matter what. The manner in which it does so can be completely different; whether it's through lasting ridiculous amounts of time with minimal costs for repairs and/or maintenance, or actually making money to cover its own cost.

[NecronLord]

Also, look at the ground units: the cavalry charge was so counter-productive that they might have been better served if the warriors got off their mounts and taken potshots from the trees. Now, to us modern people who believe in efficient military action being mostly about killing the enemy before they kill you, that sounds a reasonable course of action. But is it to the Na'Vi? Proud warriors and hunters, with a tribal society? I am not certain how well we know the warrior-culture of the Na'Vi, but I doubt that they would see such an action as productive. They would see it as cowardly, which in the forms of warfare they are experienced in means ineffective, thus bad.

I rather doubt it. They've no problem sniping from the trees; observe Neytiri in the beginning, where she does precisely that. There's certainly no cowardice in it.

More likely, they didn't conceive of how difficult a charge would actually be. It's obvious they've not done a stand up battle against guns before.

[SylasGaunt]

There's also the cultural differences to consider. Remember he was welding together a bunch of tribes from wildly different areas and really didn't have enough equipment to coordinate everything. Really all he can do is get a general plan together and tell it to all the leaders. Beyond that they're basically operating on their own aside from Tsu'tey and Neytiri having radios to help coordinate the air assault (gear they aren't used to using). Jake could probably communicate his wishes well enough in the leadup and in actually launching the attack, but once they got into the furball with the RDA the ability to do any kind of large scale coordination essentially becomes impossible.

I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of that horse borne cavalry charge in the final battle was drawn from the plain-dwelling Na'vi tribe we saw and probably under command of their commander. They live on the plains and so they're used to thinking in terms of running prey down with their mounts rather than fighting prey that shoot back or fighting a guerrilla campaign in the jungle (something Neytiri's tribe might have been better suited for except that they were needed for the air attack).

[Lord of the Abyss]

I'm not sure if this is off-topic, but given that this is the only Avatar thread currently extant: did anyone else see the film and immediately assume that the Navi, their planet, or both had to be artificial? I understand the danger of "I can't understand it, therefore it's impossible", but still - try as I might, I cannot come up with a way for that kind of setup to develop without intelligent meddling.

I always assumed that the meddler in question was the world-mind Eywa. I figure that if a "thinking" ecology ever evolved, it would pretty swiftly overrun or engulf the rest of the purposeless, unthinking ecologies on the planet - just as it apparently almost immediately found how to negate all the Earth viruses the humans brought along. After that, millions of years of directed, intelligent evolution would produce a very different ecology than what we have here on Earth. Which is why everything is so physically impressive, why there are virtually no diseases or parasites, why everything has those neural ports, etc; that's the way Eywa wants it. The entire ecology is artificial as I see it; any natural, undirected ecology on Pandora is millions of years dead, or buried someplace Eywa doesn't reach.

[Coyote]

In the end, it boils down to this: the Na'vi are annoying. Perfect space elves? Poorly disguised symbolism and paper-thin characters? Bring on the napalm. However pretty Avatar is, the protagonists are annoying.

Yeah, I consider the Na'vi to be pretty annoying and Mary-Sueish. Most of it boils down to the whole Gaian-earth-worship crap they practice, and the appearance (I've not seen the movie, so I might be wrong) that because they have said Gaian crap, they are better than technology-using humans.

Except for the fact that, for the Na'vi, "Gaia" is actually a real entity, capable of intervening on their behalf with the appropriate appeal. That moves it out of the realm of "fuzzy-wuzzy ideology" and into the realm of "planetary artillery on call".

And seriously, take a look at the actions of the RDA. Sorry, but the Na'vi are morally superior to most of the humans in this scenario.

[Whiskey144]

Except for the fact that, for the Na'vi, "Gaia" is actually a real entity, capable of intervening on their behalf with the appropriate appeal. That moves it out of the realm of "fuzzy-wuzzy ideology" and into the realm of "planetary artillery on call".

And seriously, take a look at the actions of the RDA. Sorry, but the Na'vi are morally superior to most of the humans in this scenario.

If you'd bothered to read the rest of the thread, then you'd notice that I've conceded the Mary-Sueism point, and the moral ambiguity of the RDA.

[Darth Hoth]

In the end, it boils down to this: the Na'vi are annoying. Perfect space elves? Poorly disguised symbolism and paper-thin characters? Bring on the napalm. However pretty Avatar is, the protagonists are annoying.

Yeah, I consider the Na'vi to be pretty annoying and Mary-Sueish. Most of it boils down to the whole Gaian-earth-worship crap they practice, and the appearance (I've not seen the movie, so I might be wrong) that because they have said Gaian crap, they are better than technology-using humans.

Except for the fact that, for the Na'vi, "Gaia" is actually a real entity, capable of intervening on their behalf with the appropriate appeal. That moves it out of the realm of "fuzzy-wuzzy ideology" and into the realm of "planetary artillery on call".

To me, the fact that their god actually exists makes it worse, not better. It validates their retarded religion, in the same way that Left Behind validates the Christian God in-universe. So, whether the creator intends it or not, it comes off with the impression of propaganda: "What if this myth is really true after all? Look how nice that would be!"

(Or, "scary" for the nonbelievers who get smashed by God/Eywa/whatever when it answers the prayers of its devotees.)

It also aggravates my issues with the Navi leading unrealistically comfortable lives for their overall tech level: It is not just due to author's fiat, but literal in-story divine intervention. It reminds me of those fundies who say ozone holes (or whatever) will not be a problem because Jesus will come back and save them anyway before they grow too big . . . except in the context of the story, the Navi are objectively right when they say, "Screw technology and civilisation, Eywa Provides."

You keep on missing Ford's point.

The Venture Star is the forefront of human imagination and ingenuity, and what is it being used for? To buy the CEO of RDA a nicer house.

You're quite correct; if you assume that financial profit is the driving force for society, then of course you'll want to make sure your expensive gadgetry isn't squandered. However, Ford appears to be saying that making the profit motive the cornerstone of your society isn't necessarily a good idea.

What should be the driving force of society instead of selfishness and profit? Everyone holding hands and working together for the betterment of all humanity sentient life EVERYWHERE! with no expectation of personal gain, giving according to ability and receiving according to need?

Unless you happen to be living in the setting of Star Trek: TNG, that is unlikely to happen for the next few billions of years or so.

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh, maybe that's part of science fiction, i.e. the scientific fiction of a strange unnatural world-spanning organism that controls and artificially alters the biosphere it inhabits? Oh, wait, so it's only cool when such an overmind zergravemindyrannid-entity is hostile and is in the middle of a war between space mareens oorahooah and a bunch of phased plasma gremlins going SQUAWK SQUAWK on some stupid fucking Haloid? Apparently its cool when it is t3h evil and the heroes are cracked up musclemen supersoldiers stomping the shit out of the pew-pew aliens. But it is sucky and womanly and feeble and limp-dicked when the mind-entity in question is benevolent and friendly and defends the oppressed from asshole Space Americans.

Bunch of slack-jawed Flaggoffs, this stuff'll turn you into sexual Thanasauruses, just like me.

Also, who wouldn't be disappointed when humanity discovers awesome space technology, and finally realizes that man is not alone in the universe and that another oasis of life exists in the infinite cosmos, only to degenerate back to the same level as the colonialistic imperialist shitheads of Europe and America in the past?

Oh wait, that is grimdrakstrak and gritty and gitty and realistic! SIEG HEIL FRANK MILLER! THE GENERALISSIMO!

*watches Adam West Batman cocoon himself and mutate into a more *realistic* pseudo-pedophilic whore-murdering Green Lantern-throat-slitting Frank Miller Dark Knight Returns*

[Darth Hoth]

3. They will change their tune when its humans in the hot seat and say well expect us to fight back, ie the Adam Griff argument. Naturally the argument falls apart because it fails to be internally consistent as a "universal" rule.

I thought Adam Grif's argument (back in the original {huge} Avatar thread) was that the situation was morally grey, and while he did not fault the Martians (or whoever) for attacking Earth if it was their only means of survival, he also thought it perfectly justified if the humans fought back to the best of their ability. If my memory of the thread is correct, he phrased it something like, "Both sides are right, but neither of them is wrong."

4. They argue <insert name> exceptionalism, ie its only ok for people I like to do it. This at least maintains consistency but they naturally fail to explain why humans should have exceptionalism. Apparently its self evident. In fact, how is this argument not different from Christian's argument that if God does it, it automatically becomes good? It is built on the same shaky foundations.

Honestly, if there really was a God who truly was omnipotent and omniscient, I would think very carefully before deciding that anything He said or did was wrong or evil, because I would feel decidedly out of my league passing judgement on such a being. If you accept the basic conceits of the monotheistic religions, that particular argument actually makes sense to some degree.

The problem there is more that most religious texts are so obviously not written by an omniscient god, but human beings, and usually rather unsophisticated ones by modern standards.

It may interest you to know that disease is considered in some detail in the "Avatar Scriptment" an early treatment of the story. The RDA's most valuable side-business on Pandora involves the ability of the environment to just squash viruses.

I actually did know that; I read up on the Project 880 and Pandorapedia stuff after our discussion on Avatar-related stuff last autumn.

But frankly, that smells even more of fiat, and/or propaganda, to me: The Navi have no problems with disease because their literal not-quite-god has fixed their whole planetary ecosystem for them so very nicely that there are no diseases, period. Presumably as a reward because their lifestyle is so green and eco-friendly.

It makes their primitive culture even more of a Garden of Eden-style Lost Paradise that not only they, but we humans also should aspire to. And also makes them even more of an idealised (Mary Sue?) portrait of noble savages.

It's not a luddite story, it's an environmentalist story.

Environmentalism isn't anti-technology.

Environmentalism is not necessarily anti-technology, but in practice many if not most people (including most of its grassroot followers) seem to conflate the two.

The Navi, however, do come across as anti-technology by every measure I can judge them by. They refused any trade or interaction at all with the humans, down to such simple yet extremely useful things as metal or plastic tools. They are not even interested in finding out how the human gadgets (some of which must look quite god-like to them) work. There is either not a single individual among them with any scientific curiosity, or those who are curious are being suppressed offscreen by the tribal leadership. (I believe Shep went on at some length about this at the tail end of the original thread mentioned above.)

In the 880 scriptment, from what I recall of it there were at least individual turncoat Navi who worked with the avatars as guides and jungle survival teachers. Or maybe they were just there to spy on the RDA on behalf of the tribe, I forget the details. But at least there was some kind of interaction. As it is in the film, the Navi come across as incredibly (and unjustifiably) aloof and superior, sort of like Japan prior to Perry.

No one in the film gives up technology when they switch sides (indeed, at least two of the Na'vi take to using radio quite happily, presumably more would if available) nor is technology or science (most of the human protagnists are scientists!) said to be evil, harmful, or wrong in any way.

I find the fact that the scientists and other human renegades choose to stay behind with the Omaticaya on Pandora when the humans leave (and Sully narrating as an in-character Navi warrior) quite telling. They literally turn their back on human society to live with the Navi in primitivity and harmony with nature, once the planet has been cleansed of the RDA. Unless I am mistaken, this implies that they also give up all human technology, since I find it hard to believe that the base and its few stragglers can support it for long.

Do you think that the Martians' ends justify their means?

In a word, no.

If their entire species is dying out because their planet is going to Hell, I have a hard time faulting them for wanting to seek new territory. However, the way they went about it was utterly unconscionable.

If they had tried to negotiate some kind of settlement with the humans first, I might be more sympathetic to them.

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh, the Na'vi were pretty cool with hanging out in Grace's techno-trailer and learning human language, and they were cool with using whatever radios they had, and radios do count as "simple yet extremely useful things".

Just because we don't see any Na'vi fucking around with human technology, which wasn't available to them most parts in the movie, doesn't = they persecute curious Na'vi or some shit. Didn't they tolerate Jake because they wanted to learn from him? Or am I confusin that with Tom Cruise and Ken Watannabe?

Didn't they even send their kids to Grace's school and learn Engrish?

As for refusing human tools, I think I would also not accept shit from people who are sending armored vehicles with the stated intent of blowing up my home and ransacking shit from underneath it. I might even pull my kids out of their school.