Killing a C'tan

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Killing a C'tan

Post by Vultur » 2008-12-18 09:46pm

The C'tan have physical forms as big as a planet, right? If that form is completely destroyed (such as with an equivalent mass of antimatter), would the C'tan die permanently? Would just Death Star-ing it or dissipating it into component atoms be enough? This would be crucial for versuses with civilizations that can destroy planets as a matter of course.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Raxmei » 2008-12-18 10:37pm

The C'tan aren't physical being so much as they are scifi energy things. The physical part is just a handy interface for dealing with physical things and can be replaced. As of yet the WH40k writers have been going with the idea that scifi energy thingies can't be destroyed, so the only known way to harm them is with really big Warp-based weapons. Imprisonment and starvation for a hundred million years should also work.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by dragon » 2008-12-19 01:58am

Even though it would be interesting to see what happens if the C'tan Void Dragon on Mars is really the machine god as some suspect. Thinking that might just shake up the Imperium just a bit :)
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2008-12-19 02:15am

dragon wrote:Even though it would be interesting to see what happens if the C'tan Void Dragon on Mars is really the machine god as some suspect. Thinking that might just shake up the Imperium just a bit :)
The latest Horus Heresy book Mechanicum does deal with that topic a fair bit.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by dragon » 2008-12-19 02:45am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
dragon wrote:Even though it would be interesting to see what happens if the C'tan Void Dragon on Mars is really the machine god as some suspect. Thinking that might just shake up the Imperium just a bit :)
The latest Horus Heresy book Mechanicum does deal with that topic a fair bit.
Hum guess I'll have to pick it up then. Good book?
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Vultur » 2008-12-19 03:08am

OK, so even an equivalent mass of antimatter, devouring by the Beast Planet (from War Planets/Shadowraiders), or a Death Star blast wouldn't kill one? What about swallowing one in a black hole (5th Imperium gravitonic warheads have the capacity to make sun-swallowing black holes).

All else failing, a massive nonphysical/psychic attack ought to wipe them out if they're immune because of being non-physical beings. Some of that EU "Sith Alchemy" crud might be able to do so, but I haven't read the book it's from. I'm sure no WH40K psyker could come close to doing it, but it seems like the majority of them are quite weak - it takes many thousand to power the Astronomicon, and even so it drastically shortens their lives.

Almost any of the upper-end mental powers in the Lensman novels are way beyond anything the 40Kverse has produced. The baseline Children of the Lens are probably near Emperor levels; formed into "The Unit" and channeling enough power they could probably kill all four Chaos Gods simultaneously. Nobody in the 40Kverse, not even the Emperor or the Chaos Gods, seems to have intergalactic psychic range, while an Arisian can search through immense numbers of universes in 29 seconds. Admittedly that's not much energy transfer, but they can use a mindwipe type thing on equivalently godlike beings in a different galaxy.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Samuel » 2008-12-19 03:13am

Vultur wrote:OK, so even an equivalent mass of antimatter, devouring by the Beast Planet (from War Planets/Shadowraiders), or a Death Star blast wouldn't kill one? What about swallowing one in a black hole (5th Imperium gravitonic warheads have the capacity to make sun-swallowing black holes).

All else failing, a massive nonphysical/psychic attack ought to wipe them out if they're immune because of being non-physical beings. Some of that EU "Sith Alchemy" crud might be able to do so, but I haven't read the book it's from. I'm sure no WH40K psyker could come close to doing it, but it seems like the majority of them are quite weak - it takes many thousand to power the Astronomicon, and even so it drastically shortens their lives.

Almost any of the upper-end mental powers in the Lensman novels are way beyond anything the 40Kverse has produced. The baseline Children of the Lens are probably near Emperor levels; formed into "The Unit" and channeling enough power they could probably kill all four Chaos Gods simultaneously. Nobody in the 40Kverse, not even the Emperor or the Chaos Gods, seems to have intergalactic psychic range, while an Arisian can search through immense numbers of universes in 29 seconds. Admittedly that's not much energy transfer, but they can use a mindwipe type thing on equivalently godlike beings in a different galaxy.
Except doing something like that in 40K causes your brain to go bye bye. If they can't go for power, sheer wackiness will tide them over.

And remember, these C'Tan are smart- they won't be where you can kill them- they will be somewhere else.And they can go faster than anything you can make- instantaneous transit is fun that way.

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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Vultur » 2008-12-19 03:23am

The Lensmanverse psychic stuff seems to have IMMENSE ranges if you're good enough - apparently distance (and arguably, even inter-universe barriers) stops mattering as much once you've got enough power and know how to use it. I don't think the C'tan can go anywhere the Arisians/Eddorians/Lens mass mind can't reach them. (The C'tan can't use the Warp, but even that ought to be no trouble for 2nd or 3rd Stage Lensmen, or Arisian/Eddorian minds. Some seriously freaky fear-bending-reality stuff seems to be basic psychic techniques in the Lensmenverse.)
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Lord Relvenous » 2008-12-19 03:59am

Where are you getting the C'tan are as big as worlds? As far as I know the Nightbringer and Deciever are maybe 40-50 tall, if that. The Void Dragon we have essentially no real data on.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-12-19 05:30am

Vultur wrote:All else failing, a massive nonphysical/psychic attack ought to wipe them out if they're immune because of being non-physical beings. Some of that EU "Sith Alchemy" crud might be able to do so, but I haven't read the book it's from. I'm sure no WH40K psyker could come close to doing it, but it seems like the majority of them are quite weak - it takes many thousand to power the Astronomicon, and even so it drastically shortens their lives.
You are decidedly wrong on the relative power levels; Palpatine is above Alpha-Plus, and a few other Expanded Universe characters can perform feats somewhere close to high-level Psyker parity, but the vast majority of Jedi and Sith are weaker than the average Psyker (as demonstrated in the films), never mind that nearly all sources indicate them being vastly fewer (DESB and what spins off that are the only exceptions that come to mind, and even then the numbers are lower in the end).

"Sith magic" and "Sith alchemy" (there is a degree of overlap) both appear to primarily affect the physical; even Palpatine's most magnificent destructive achievements tended to be more physical in their workings (e.g., the conjuration of the Hyperspace Wormhole). Of course, said wormhole did not merely kill its victims, but could apparently send them directly to Hell, so if he managed to catch a C'tan in it before it could teleport, it might not be able to return, and therefore count as dead for all intents and purposes.

Potentially, if C'tan are "energy beings", "Drain Life" attacks as per Darth Nihilus could be effective; however, I am dubious with the quantification of those, and my knowledge of C'tan abilities is rather limited, so I shall leave that scenario to someone else to evaluate.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Ford Prefect » 2008-12-19 06:24am

Lord Relvenous wrote:Where are you getting the C'tan are as big as worlds? As far as I know the Nightbringer and Deciever are maybe 40-50 tall, if that. The Void Dragon we have essentially no real data on.
The Necrodermis are not the actual bodies of the C'tan, as I understand it.
Palpatine is above Alpha-Plus
Actually, while this is on the table, perhaps you could help me out here. Palpatine admits in the Book of Anger that he can't really control the wormholes ... except doesn't he demonstrate considerable precision in kidnapping Luke Skywalker with one?
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2008-12-19 08:17am

Darth Hoth wrote:Potentially, if C'tan are "energy beings", "Drain Life" attacks as per Darth Nihilus could be effective; however, I am dubious with the quantification of those, and my knowledge of C'tan abilities is rather limited, so I shall leave that scenario to someone else to evaluate.
Well.... the Nightbringer brought down quite a large portion of an Eldar fleet on its own before it lost energy and crashed. Of course, the Nightbringer is also the stuff of legends and every mention of it in cultures throughout the universe apparently talked about a being that brought about the death of suns. The Ctan is vulnerable to huge fortresses like the Blackstone fortresses, which is really a huge warp gun.
dragon wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
dragon wrote:Even though it would be interesting to see what happens if the C'tan Void Dragon on Mars is really the machine god as some suspect. Thinking that might just shake up the Imperium just a bit :)
The latest Horus Heresy book Mechanicum does deal with that topic a fair bit.
Hum guess I'll have to pick it up then. Good book?
It's decent. The expose towards the end of the book.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-12-19 09:53am

Ford Prefect wrote:Actually, while this is on the table, perhaps you could help me out here. Palpatine admits in the Book of Anger that he can't really control the wormholes ... except doesn't he demonstrate considerable precision in kidnapping Luke Skywalker with one?
Indeed he does; not only is Skywalker not harmed, he is deposited into a dungeon ship's hold without it being damaged, though we clearly see the storm rending the orbit and surface of Coruscant and devouring considerable amounts of military wreckage. The fact that he was so singularly obsessed with Skywalker further speaks against the idea that he would use a method the security of which he could not guarantee to deliver him to Byss.

Are you going by the Essential Guide to the Force? I seem to recall various sourcebooks stating that only Palpatine had mastered the storms, while his apprentices could exercise only limited control of them. Nothing first-hand, however, so it might be best to take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Vultur » 2008-12-19 02:19pm

Well, I'd consider most Jedi/Sith (barring those who could do Force storms and EU planet-killing weirdness) as very weak psychics compared to, say, Lensmenverse guys, though they're powerful compared to other psychics (Harry Harrison's Deathworld series ones, for example).
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-12-19 02:40pm

From what I hear of Lensmen (I have not read anything of it, though I picked up Children of the Lense a few days ago), that setting is capable of easily defeating most anything short of the Culture. I doubt even Palpatine in his prime would be anything they could not deal with.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-12-19 02:54pm

Darth Hoth wrote:Indeed he does; not only is Skywalker not harmed, he is deposited into a dungeon ship's hold without it being damaged, though we clearly see the storm rending the orbit and surface of Coruscant and devouring considerable amounts of military wreckage. The fact that he was so singularly obsessed with Skywalker further speaks against the idea that he would use a method the security of which he could not guarantee to deliver him to Byss.

Are you going by the Essential Guide to the Force? I seem to recall various sourcebooks stating that only Palpatine had mastered the storms, while his apprentices could exercise only limited control of them. Nothing first-hand, however, so it might be best to take it with a grain of salt.
As I reclal its only the large, nasty, and very destructive Force Storms that he can't control - such as the ones that lead to the destruction of the Eclipse. The one that grabbed Luke was distinctly smaller and less destructive (given that Coruscant is still around, ,has a crust and is indeed habitable.)

Edit: On top of this, this was Dark Empire palpy, who was linking himself to multiple Dark Jedi (his "empowring" Darkside apprentices) tapping the live forces of those around him to boost his abilities and was still burning out his clone bodies through overusage of the Forcee at an accelerated rate. Its doubtful those abilities represent his "independent" powers, at least not without vastly exerting himself.

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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-12-19 03:30pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:As I reclal its only the large, nasty, and very destructive Force Storms that he can't control - such as the ones that lead to the destruction of the Eclipse. The one that grabbed Luke was distinctly smaller and less destructive (given that Coruscant is still around, ,has a crust and is indeed habitable.)
That might be it, I suppose. Still, it took the two most powerful Jedi to break his control of even a large wormhole, that when his hand had been severed moments before. Of course, his control of it is probably not as minute to begin with.
Edit: On top of this, this was Dark Empire palpy, who was linking himself to multiple Dark Jedi (his "empowring" Darkside apprentices) tapping the live forces of those around him to boost his abilities and was still burning out his clone bodies through overusage of the Forcee at an accelerated rate. Its doubtful those abilities represent his "independent" powers, at least not without vastly exerting himself.
The Dark Side Elite were empowered by Palpatine, not part of those he drained; this is shown in DEII and elaborated on in the roleplaying supplements. He granted them part of his power, not the other way around. As for those he siphoned power from on Byss, there is too little to quantify how much they would contribute; it appears not to have had any immediately harmful effects on them, so he was probably going mild on that. But when they number in the billions, it might still produce a considerable boost.

His high-end power output was definitely not sustainable in a natural body, though, as the comics and surrounding sources elaborated.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Vultur » 2008-12-19 04:07pm

Darth Hoth wrote:From what I hear of Lensmen (I have not read anything of it, though I picked up Children of the Lense a few days ago), that setting is capable of easily defeating most anything short of the Culture. I doubt even Palpatine in his prime would be anything they could not deal with.
You should probably start reading the series at "Galactic Patrol". The core four books (Galactic Patrol, Gray Lensman, Second Stage Lensmen, and Children of the Lens) are a fairly tightly linked story.

Their technology is indeed absurdly powerful. Even in psychic stuff alone, things get crazy fast.

Has anyone actually done calcs on Lensmanverse technology or laid out all the psychic feats by who performed them? If not, that might be a good topic for another thread.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-12-19 04:21pm

Darth Hoth wrote:That might be it, I suppose. Still, it took the two most powerful Jedi to break his control of even a large wormhole, that when his hand had been severed moments before. Of course, his control of it is probably not as minute to begin with.
Luke, Leia, and unborn Anakin linked together and briefly stunned/distracted Palpy. That's not really all that impressive, especially considering that "combining" the Force in that way tends to have the effect of greatly amplifiyng the combined power.
The Dark Side Elite were empowered by Palpatine, not part of those he drained; this is shown in DEII and elaborated on in the roleplaying supplements. He granted them part of his power, not the other way around.
The only possible way that works is if he forms some sort of "meld" with them akin to what the trainees did in Darksaber or Dark Nest. It can "bestow" power on another but its hardly a one-way street - (see aformentioned reference to "amplifying" effect.) If they can call upon his power, tehn he can acll upon theirs, and their combined powers would be considerably greater as a result.
As for those he siphoned power from on Byss, there is too little to quantify how much they would contribute; it appears not to have had any immediately harmful effects on them, so he was probably going mild on that. But when they number in the billions, it might still produce a considerable boost.
So what? The fact he taps other sources complicates quantifying his "individual" power. I haven't even bothered to mention some of the more insane "boosters" taht complicate his powers.

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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Ford Prefect » 2008-12-19 05:42pm

Darth Hoth wrote:Are you going by the Essential Guide to the Force? I seem to recall various sourcebooks stating that only Palpatine had mastered the storms, while his apprentices could exercise only limited control of them. Nothing first-hand, however, so it might be best to take it with a grain of salt.
I think it might have come from the Dark Empire endnotes, much of which were put into the Dark Side Sourcebook, but take that with a grain of salt. There is, obviously, no actual Book of Anger and so no first hand information on Force storms apart from what we seen in Dark Empire.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by NecronLord » 2008-12-19 06:06pm

Lord Relvenous wrote:Where are you getting the C'tan are as big as worlds? As far as I know the Nightbringer and Deciever are maybe 40-50 tall, if that. The Void Dragon we have essentially no real data on.
That's their avatars. The natural form of a C'tan is bigger than a planet. The main but not only source for this is from the Necron Codex. I'll post more tomorrow on this topic.
Darth Hoth wrote:Potentially, if C'tan are "energy beings", "Drain Life" attacks as per Darth Nihilus could be effective
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Lord Relvenous » 2008-12-19 07:07pm

NecronLord wrote:
Lord Relvenous wrote:Where are you getting the C'tan are as big as worlds? As far as I know the Nightbringer and Deciever are maybe 40-50 tall, if that. The Void Dragon we have essentially no real data on.
That's their avatars. The natural form of a C'tan is bigger than a planet. The main but not only source for this is from the Necron Codex. I'll post more tomorrow on this topic.
Ah, thank you. I have the Necron codex lieing around here somewhere (meaning on my hard drive ;) ) so I can go looking for it. My knowledge of the C'tan comes from novels including them (usually not very good for info-dumping) and second hand information. I knew that they could survive without their bodies (like the Nightbringer did) but didn't realize that those bodies were just constructs. Thanks again.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Bob the Gunslinger » 2008-12-20 03:34am

We know that C'tan can kill other C'tan, so they are vulnerable to some kind of "energy", although it is not well defined. C'tan also feed off of stars, so they can clearly withstand, and even interact with, insanely energetic plasma, magnetic fields, etc., which I would think leaves them vulnerable to some form of attack. The C'tan are known primarily as star-eaters; does this give us an upper limit for the amount of energy that one would be able to unleash against another?

From what sources we have, such as the Necron Codex, the forces of the Old Ones were never able to kill a C'tan directly (although I believe that Vaul wounded the Void Dragon with a blast from the Blackstone Fortresses). Thus the civilization that had created the Eldar, Hrud and Orks, which was clearly capable of creating fleets of ships that dish out SW-level firepower or more, was unable to find a way to kill a C'tan, and only managed to wound one through the use of a warp rift (or whatever it is the Blackstones do). That's pretty scary.

Still, without any evidence or calculations, I'd guess that a Death Star blast would probably fuck one up right proper.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-12-20 05:02am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Luke, Leia, and unborn Anakin linked together and briefly stunned/distracted Palpy. That's not really all that impressive, especially considering that "combining" the Force in that way tends to have the effect of greatly amplifiyng the combined power.
Are you referring to their power, or his?
The only possible way that works is if he forms some sort of "meld" with them akin to what the trainees did in Darksaber or Dark Nest. It can "bestow" power on another but its hardly a one-way street - (see aformentioned reference to "amplifying" effect.) If they can call upon his power, tehn he can acll upon theirs, and their combined powers would be considerably greater as a result.
No, it is explicitly listed as a specific Sith trick - he imparts them with some of his power, rather than forming a link in the more direct sense. It is in the roleplaying books; I believe Wizard's Revised Core Rulebook has it in their stats on him, among others. It is one-way, though he can break it and restore his power at any point.
So what? The fact he taps other sources complicates quantifying his "individual" power. I haven't even bothered to mention some of the more insane "boosters" taht complicate his powers.
Out of curiosity, what would that be? Had he constructed Sith temples along "Ley lines" on Byss or somesuch? Otherwise, most Force-enhancing talismans appear to have been lost over time (Kaiburr Crystall, &c.).
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What? I freely confess to being almost completely ignorant about C'tan, I quit the tabletop game before the Necron-wanking started. Do they not have life energies in the classical sense?
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Norseman » 2008-12-20 05:09am

I think I should mention that not even the Arisians could single-handed punch through the third level screens protecting Eddor, and had to create the Lensman corps to create a psychic gestalt powerful enough to get the job done. Meanwhile the Children of the Lens are not as powerful as an Arisian, at least not yet. So there are limits to their power. It's also clear that range and power are not the same in the Lensman universe, you can be very powerful yet have quite limited range (e.g. a solar system or less). In short being able to search universes isn't that big a feat.

That said I think that a Lensman/WH40K crossover would be absolutely awesome.
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